I feel so sad about what my friend is willing to accept from a partner

[Neonprint]

My closest friend has two children aged 18 months and 4. She's had various issues in her marriage to the children's father. Not cheating or anything though. He is quite old fashioned in his views of what women should do domestically and re childcare.

So he's quite huffy at home and easily overwhelmed by having to look after the kids. He faffs on often making situations worse. You know time is of the essence with a toddler! He almost never looks after the 2 children alone.

She does almost all of the stuff with the children, the cleaning, the shopping, most cooking, all of the mental load. They both work the same hours (full time).

He's also pretty uptight and low key controlling he's also pretty miserable. For example he's super tight with money despite them having decent jobs.

Anyway we had a very brief chance to talk recently without the kids. I asked how whe was doing and how things were with them. She basically said all OK. Then went into all of the things I've talked about above and we've discussed at length before. Saying she has basically accept this is how it is.

I know it's not my life but I just feel so sad for her. That she thinks this is OK and acceptsble.

Also I've seen him with the kids and he's really impatient. The older one is starting to notice. So I'm concerned about the impact its going to have on the children. I just feel so very sad that she can't even see how awful he is.

I'm not sure I'm looking for solutions. I'm just sharing really. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this? I'm actually quite shocked someone like her who is intelligent can't seem to grasp the damaging impact to herself and the children from home being useless, controlling and negative.

At the moment it sounds as though she's happy to put up with it. All you can do is be a friend to her and also be there if it ends in tears.

There's nothing you can do.

What would you suggest she does. It doesn't sound like leaving him would particularly improve the situation, she'd still be left with almost all of the childcare and household jobs to do alone plus going through all the disruption.

Hopefully he does have some redeeming features as she has chosen to have 2 children with him. I guess there is some hope he will be better with the children as they get older.

I don't think you can get too involved however, unless there's actual abuse, without risking your friendship.

Yes, I've watched a friend of mine in a similar relationship with her DH for the best part of 20 years. I don't see her much any more because their dc and mine are grown up now.

Her DH is one of the most miserable, controlling, stern and downright tight-fisted people I have ever had the misfortune to meet. He's the sort of person to go out and destroy his dc's snowmen that they've spent ages building in the garden - because he doesn't want to spoil the grass (?).

We call him 'The Dementor' because he just sucks all the joy out of life. How she's put up with him this long is anybody's guess.

@Lindy2

What would you suggest she does. It doesn't sound like leaving him would particularly improve the situation, she'd still be left with almost all of the childcare and household jobs to do alone plus going through all the disruption.

I think this is her thinking. Obviously it's her life to live. But there are, plenty of negative consequences to him being around and behaving as he does.

It has a negative effect on her self esteem. It negatively effects the children as he huffs and puffs making them feel like a burden. There's also loads of stuff round his meaness and being controlling which negatively effects her and the kids. So to me it's not as simple as it may seem.

@expectopelargonium Are you my best mate with a MN pseudonym?! In fact, you could be any of my friends...... The Dementor. Totally :/

Just talk her into using Mumsnet as a general support option.

Oh wow this is kinda like my best friend. So sad. She's been with her partner for 10 years and in that time lost friends and isolated herself. I hear from her rarely and if I'm honest I edit what I say because in this time I've met my partner, married, bought a house and now TTC.

I go between being angry, frustrated and sad with her. I don't say a word but inside I'm so disheartened for her.

She's had counselling because she thought it was her lack of self esteem in the relationship when in fact her partner has NEVER complimented her once!

He won't marry her but she allows this to happen, they rent the same house for 10 years, they don't own anything together and he's wasting her important years and won't have kids with her. I've never thought he was the one for her and it strikes me that he's a confirmed bachelor and she's more like a friend who helps pay the bills. And he never comes out so it's always a solo meet up even if I'm with my husband. BUT they've never had a serious chat because my friend is too frightened to hear the truth.

Her friends have got married, had kids and it's awful to say but moved on. She gets upset that she's not invited places or to weddings but she literally makes no effort.

Now I know she'd love to get married to him and have kids (he won't even let her have a cat 🙄) or even own a house together but after 10 years I don't see it happening. She's got to be miserable. it's all on his term, she lets him do as he pleases and really I have to be honest she's decided this life.

I am certain he'll leave her when he meets the 'one' and marry and have kids having wasted my friends life. My friend is intelligent and wonderful but has become a doormat but I because it's 10 years on no one else really is to blame.

My advice is not to say a word.
I don't see my friend a lot nowadays but that's her decision.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Just talk her into using Mumsnet as a general support option.

Not a bad idea! I feel that what a lot of women on here fin unacceptable might make her think a bit more about the wider effects.

I know it's dramatic but the pandemic has really made me fell worse about the situation. As we've heard so many stories about people passing away before their time or being left with longe term illness. I just feel like we only get one go at this so choosing to be with somone who detracts from your life and doesn't build you up is just heart breaking.

He's not from the UK so I think she also feels more obligated towards him because he's always talking about how he's given up things to be with her. Yet he came here before they met and wanted to be here. So it's not really true. When she asks what he gave up he can't give tons of examples either!

What would you suggest she does. It doesn't sound like leaving him would particularly improve the situation, she'd still be left with almost all of the childcare and household jobs to do alone plus going through all the disruption.

Actually having all the household jobs and childcare to do on your own is far less strain than doing all the household jobs and childcare while living with someone who could share the load, but doesn't, and who is domineering.

@category12

What would you suggest she does. It doesn't sound like leaving him would particularly improve the situation, she'd still be left with almost all of the childcare and household jobs to do alone plus going through all the disruption.

Actually having all the household jobs and childcare to do on your own is far less strain than doing all the household jobs and childcare while living with someone who could share the load, but doesn't, and who is domineering.

This is my view too. I think there's a difference in knowing its all on you vs somone choosing not to help or somone helping and being huffy. The latter two create all sorts of issues with self esteem or how the kids feel.

I personally grew up in a home with parents who were together but my mum did pretty much everything. At times I felt like a burden because I could see myum was overwhelmed and my dad felt it want his job or didn't care.

I agree. When you already do all the housework and childcare as well as holding down a job, surely it doesn't make any difference if you're on your own doing it. . . . Apart from the massive relief that there isn't someone bloody useless in the way making it so stressful! I love doing housework when it's just me and I know everything will stay tidy. Nothing worse than a lazy arse watching on and not lifting a finger.

@NoatheQueen sounds very similar to my SIL, my wife's younger sister. Been with this bloke since she was 18, he's 10 years older, she's now 35. They have zero life. They do zero things besides watch TV. Zero holidays. Zero kids, even though she wanted them, that's never going to happen. Zero ambition to better herself.

In the 7 years I've been with my DW I've met SIL plenty of times, they live close and DW and get family are very close. I've met her bloke 4 times. He has no family to speak of, his dad lives in Thailand with some young bride 40 years younger + kids. No family in England.

Any discussion my DW has with her about going anywhere in holiday, been out lately etc is always got him in the background saying "what would we want to do that sort of thing for". So she does nothing.

DW had a breakdown about it 6 months ago. She went round to SIL house (I've never been), it's in a real dump of a suburb, the whole place is awful. Came home and broke down in tears, she said she she's never going back there, it's too depressing. She said she's morning the loss of her SIL. When she was growing up and in school she was really bright and academic, got great marks, had lots of grand plans for adventure, university, all of that. Met this bloke and he's sucked the life out of her. She'll live and for what purpose? DW now finds it all too much. She loves her SIL but nothing will change.

@Cruddles thats absolutely awful. Honestly I've had to step way back.

The holidays thing struck a chord. This sounds familiar. They booked one holiday but he didn't like it so they came home early. ...he's very serious and quite pretentious. I had a sixth sense when they met that he wasn't right for her and I feel I've been proved right.
At the start of their relationship, the time when you're meant to be head over heels in love he'd keep her hanging for a week or two and simply not reply to her messages.
He took years to commit or move in with her because he wasn't ready even though he was in his mid 30s at the time. And in the past
He also made a few comments about fancying me and comparing us in front of her!!!! (So gross!). I swear he did it to test her and yep she blindly stayed.
I always thought it wouldn't last so I was always waiting for the break up and their to pick up the pieces but sadly ten years on it doesn't look likely.
My friend will literally do anything to keep the relationship together, he doesn't do anything, it's a room mate for him. The times I've seen them together I slightly cringe as she's so obsessed with him but it's not reciprocated.
I've realised, since getting married that she and her partner never do anything together. They don't share any mutual friends, it's very separate, they don't do things together. He has his life and she fits in when required.

Tbh I'm sad I'm losing a friend but I see how and why so many friends have drifted apart from her. It's hardwork and I feel she chose this person over friends and a life that could've been fulfilment and happiness.

Not sure if anyone will read this or if it matters, just sharing thoughts...

I was talking to my partner last night about this situation and whether I should have a more up front conversation with my friend. To be clear ice said loads of times before his behaviour is unacceptable but often in the context of her bring it up.

On the one hand it's her life, she probably is aware and I'm worried it could damage or relationship. But on the other hand I feel by not saying something to her it's as if I think his behaviour is normal and acceptable. Am I partly complicit in the normalising of crappy behaviour by not calling it out for what it is?

We say this about other behaviours, if we don't challenge them we're sort of aiding them. Is it the same with men treating their partner badly and being a shit parent?

I know that men being shit is on them but I also think as a feminist we need to support women to push back against it. And I sort of feel by nodding along to the excuses she makes for him I'm doing her a disservice as a friend.

I’m somewhat the woman in @NoatheQueen’s description. Not totally as I don’t want kids but otherwise...
It’s hard to see oneself in black and white like that

No advice, but I'm pretty much in your friends position. It sucks.

Be there for her as you are doing, and offer an ear as best you can. Some women feel that in relationships like this with young children, they are stuck at least for the foreseeable future. It may not be forever

Sorry @Bonheurdupasse but I really don't see how you are ok in this situation? Surely you can't be happy? Genuine question why do you stay?
I beg to differ when it comes to your life and happiness it can be black or white.

I know what pp's are saying about young children. But I also worry that once they've been through the stress and she's let him get away with all this then that's the lowest bar and if things get better she will see it as an improvement even if he's still treating her poorly.

@Bonheurdupasse so sorry you are in a similar situation. Sending love. But honestly I think it can be fairly simple if not immediate. I understand people have circumstances which keep them in relationships. So it may be that it doesn't mean you could leave immediately.

But long term I really don't think we should stay in relationships which make us unhappy. As I've said in pp. We only get one go at life we shouldn't spend it unhappy. What are the things which make you stay?

I think it's important that you reflect back that it isn't normal.

It's a tough line to tread because you don't want to constantly contradict her or make her feel defensive or attacked, but you don't want to shore up the belief that this is all you can expect either. I think dropping in things like "oh that sounds a bit controlling/gaslighting/whatever", kind of sowing the seeds, but without being too heavy about it, giving her space to talk and not trying to pin her down or insisting on your interpretation.

It's times like this storylines about domestic abuse and stuff can be handy.

I completely agree with @category12. Good advice.
However from my experience I don't think my friend is in an abusive relationship. It's definitely unhealthy and weirdly codependent but not abusive.
Could I say anything, what do you do why it's not abuse but just not working?

Thanks for the kind words...yes I know it’s not right, I’m deeply unhappy and my friends have heard all about it.

Why..I suppose I love him; and with the very tough lockdown here, I would be extremely lonely atm were we to break up. (I know as we “took a break” last autumn and my MH was abysmal.)
I’ve done as much reading as I could, dismissive avoidant, trauma bonding etc blah blah. But reading isn’t doing.

I don't know, NoatheQueen, it sounds emotionally abusive to me from what you've said - the hot and cold treatment in the beginning, comparing her unfavourably with other women in front of her, how isolated she's become, ending a holiday midway through and everything being on his terms. Sounds like he's systematically ground down her self-esteem and she's hooked on the intermittent reinforcement.

Thanks @category12 for your opinion. When you put it like this, in stark reality my gut feeling agrees with you. I feel you have hit the nail on the head.
It's also the drifting apart from her friends over the years and it feels like she's dedicated her life to him. I mean I'm married and sod that! 😂I feel I have very little to chat with her about because she's kinda stuck 10 years in the past just dating a guy who isn't committed.

It's awful but I wish he'd go off with someone else (I don't see him leaving for any other reason) and so my friend can have some type of life.

It's actually my husband who first pointed it out and asked me about their relationship and what my friend was like before this relationship and why they weren't married or don't have a house together or why he never comes on dates with her. In the last mutual friends have also noted the weirdness of their relationship and how devoted she is and how he doesn't care.

It's just little things that now make sense and give a bigger picture.
If I said anything she'd would always always choose him. She will never ever say a bad word about him or their relationship which,after 10 years and her being my best friend is crazy. I actually don't think they argue because she never raises issues or what she wants. Probably because she knows he'll leave her. She must be so anxious all the time.

Now I don't think it's a good idea to discuss your relationship with friends all the time but once in a while saying your other half is doing your head in isn't a bad thing! It's normal.