Estrangement: father

[30julytoday]

Advice on how to move forwards please . This is long as been mulling it for many years

My mum died 20 years ago at 60 years old. Dad and mums marriage not in good place for years. Dad started a new relationship with a women living in another country that he met on a Gladys 3 weeks after mum died. He’s been with her since then and he’s in his late 80s now.

I really don’t think I have an issue with his new partner, even at speed he entered into it, given he was unhappy anyway in his marriage

About 15 years ago he told me not to contact him again. I had sent him a letter saying how hurt I was by some things he said to me.

These things that hurt me were a whole bunch of stuff that had built up including not ever asking about how I was feeling after mums death, not being able to talk about her to him, throwing some items of hers away despite me asking for them. He also never asked about my DC, mostly he communicated by email telling me he was doing x and y and it all was a bit one sided with no interest from him on what I was doing or Dc we’re doing. It came to a head over a stupid incident about me using equipment in the kitchen I’d cooked in with mum for years and years, and his new partner telling me I shouldn’t do x thing because it wouldn’t work and dad then giving me a bollocking when I said “ it’s ok, I’ve beeen using this in this way for years” . I got the full “ dissapointed in you” , won’t accept my relationship spiel over something very minor.

Now my Dad has history on this. My DB says he is passive agressive, he certainly has spent his life avoid conflict and lashing out if being involved in any conflict. He has never seemed able to work through his emotions. My other DB formulated the opinion that I remind him too much of mum

Being non communicating with him is something I found very hard. Even though I’d say we’d not a lot in common, he was still my dad, and my mum was not long dead. I fundamentally believe that most family breakdowns are due to misunderstanding, mis communications and we just needed to talk through the issues and address them honestly.

About 10 years ago, aided by my DBs we had a “reunion” . I thought we’d had an honest discussion and reached a place we could move forwards from. We agreed on his next visit over to UK ( he was by now living with new partner in her country) he’d meet with my DC - they’d not seen him since they were 3-4 and now in early teens. Months went by, then I found out from my SiL that he’d been over, seen my DBs and their families. I emailed him to say why hadn’t he been in touch to set up meeting..response was “I forgot”

I sent back a email to effect of..don’t believe it...I was extremely hurt as were kids, and if he didn’t want relationship then tell me. I got terse response, don’t ever contact me again and all the how dissapointing I was, nasty, etc

So I haven’t been in touch since. But it precipitated a bout of depression ( there were other things occurring too but it was straw that broke camels back), I was off work and on meds for about 3 months.

He however continues to send me Xmas cards and birthday card. Always” lots of love xxx” . Every time I see the envelopes I get extremely distressed and angry. They go straight in bin. I also get upset when my SiL starts talking about him at family events, or my DB give me updates on his health ( thought you ought to know type stuff)

by the way he has not made any attempt to be in touch with my DC or send them birthday cards or presents since the first falling out 17 years ago.

So, my dilemma is this, should I try to make contact again..maybe respond to his latest Xmas card? He is elderly and I’m conscious that he could die with me never speaking to him again. I am very concerned if it goes wrong again I am potentially vulnerable to getting depressed again. My motivation is that he has expressed that I am nasty and horrible person. It impacts my self esteem...I want a chance to set the record straight.

Sorry this is so long...advice welcome

Despite telling me not to contact him, he kept ( and has kept) sending me birthday cards/ Xmas cards...which just up

Ignore the last sentence that came up in error😳 fat fingers

No I wouldn't. Fuck that. He obviously doesn't want a relationship.

I wouldn't waste my time.

@FoffeeCoffee

No I wouldn't. Fuck that. He obviously doesn't want a relationship.

I wouldn't waste my time.

Ok, I have “fucked that” for last 10 years...I get very distressed about it.not helped by fact he keeps sending cards and my SiL keeps talking about him updating me on his “ news”

How do I reconcile that

I would not try contacting him again as no good will come to you of doing so. Why would you want to contact him now; is it because he is now elderly?. He has not fundamentally changed in all the years you have known him; he is merely now abusive and old. He has had a lifetime to make a difference when it came to you and he has not bothered with you at all. You owe him nothing let alone any sort of relationship here.

Ignore SIL here; she has her own agenda and absolutely no interest in hearing your side of things. She is an easily manipulated flying monkey sent in by your dad to do his bidding for him. She is no easy presence in your life either and I would seriously further lower all contact levels with her too. You need radiators in your life, not drains.

Actually SiL isn’t ...my dads not sending her in...she’s like me in that can’t stand family estrangements....she’s just as upset as me and feels it makes family difficult...
She’s right..a relative will marry next year and dad and I both invited...part of why it’s all come up

I would add he was a good dad growing up. Just after mum died glue holding our relationship together came unstuck. I know he loves the “idea” of me as his daughter...it’s just when faced with reality of someone him objects to him saying incredibly thoughtless things lacking any empathy or emotional intelligence....

This is the issue...I would not describe him as abusive...he doesn’t maintain contact long enough to be abusive, just sort of lobs bombs over a wall and that goes away on a pity party if you try to lob them back or object to the bomb being dropped on you

For instance, this wedding, my DC are invited too. They’ll be effectively meeting their grandfather for the first time...do I politely acknowledge him or go out my way to ignore him...I don’t want to end up stressing on a day that isn’t about him or me

Sorry, drip feeding...so not a lifetime..just from my age of mid thirties to mid fifties.
I feel like I should be old enough to manage this...I was quite shocked it created so many emotions in me and precipitated depression.

Abuse though is not only physical in nature however.

Sil is not helping you by talking about your dad, you need to change the subject and let her feel some discomfort here. It’s not your fault that family is difficult. Your mother was the buffer here who held him partly in check when she was alive.

It may well be that guest numbers to weddings will remain limited next year. Do you want to actually attend this wedding?.

I would read about narcissistic personality disorder re your dad and see how much relates to your dad’s behaviour re you.

Do you yourself want to attend this wedding knowing that he could be there?.

He is awful. No one should treat their kids like that. You have been polite and open. I don’t know about the wedding - chances are he won’t go. What a selfish prick for putting you in this situation.

You sil - some people don’t get it. She can’t fathom that some parents are awful. Tell her once, calmly and politely what he was like and then don’t let her keep bringing it up.

You don’t deserve any of this

He will go to the wedding. It’s a very close relative.
I would not want to miss it either...so, if he is still well enough to attend he’ll be there.

Wedding is 50 people only, larger party in evening covid permitting

@Newgirls

He is awful. No one should treat their kids like that. You have been polite and open. I don’t know about the wedding - chances are he won’t go. What a selfish prick for putting you in this situation.

You sil - some people don’t get it. She can’t fathom that some parents are awful. Tell her once, calmly and politely what he was like and then don’t let her keep bringing it up.

You don’t deserve any of this

Yes, I have thought about this. I also thought about asking my DB to tell my dad to stop sending the stupid cards. But then I’m the one breaking off contact. I think he sends them to convince himself he is not the bad guy here- I sometimes think when he told me not to have contact ...ndoesnt want to ever hear from me again, he forgot that means he probably shouldn’t contact me either🤦‍♀️

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Abuse though is not only physical in nature however.

Sil is not helping you by talking about your dad, you need to change the subject and let her feel some discomfort here. It’s not your fault that family is difficult. Your mother was the buffer here who held him partly in check when she was alive.

It may well be that guest numbers to weddings will remain limited next year. Do you want to actually attend this wedding?.

I would read about narcissistic personality disorder re your dad and see how much relates to your dad’s behaviour re you.

Do you yourself want to attend this wedding knowing that he could be there?.

Thanks for responses Attila...I’m not convinced it’s narcissistic..I think he just can’t process his own emotions and verbalise..he just blurts out stuff and then runs. I think my DB comment that I remind him of mum, is probably true..he is still lashing out at her and I’m the substitute. After she died he did the full on grieving widow bit like “ how am I going to manage on my own” ( note I can’t live without her”) then 3 weeks after funeral went on holiday and “ fell in love”... he just never got to process his loss based on the poor state of relations with my mum.

What new girls has said - totally agree. Been there OP and can understand why you became depressed - you're a sane person trying to make sense of the incomprehensible. I became much happier when I realised my relative's behaviour was off the charts dysfunctional in a sort of 'why does he do that?' way. With that came acceptance.

Let's break this down into smaller chunks.

Have a word with the rellies who "update" you and say, look I know you mean well, but as Dad asked me not to contact him and it's not something I've 100% sorted out my feelings about, even now, it's best you discuss that sort of thing when I'm elsewhere.

(Something to consider - how did your DBs feel, what did they say, when they had brokered that early rapprochement, the meetup was agreed, and then he only visited them not you, after their efforts? Did neither of them say "so when are you seeing sis?" Aren't they upset by how he's behaved to you? Have they perhaps been a little not-very-nice too? What's the deal there? Maybe don't trust them entirely 100%....)

Cards: do you have an OH who could intercept and bin them? Otherwise just carry on binning.

Family gatherings. I understand how stressful it is but you do not appear to be the one who has behaved poorly. You've been invited, go, hold your head up high and avoid him, be blandly civil/produce a stony silence and head off to powder your nose ASAP if you're forced into conversation despite all this.

Ok so now the big one. Your feelings about all this.
Firstly: have a look at his own childhood and upbringing. I'm guessing it wasn't happy, that he was treated poorly. In my case my Dad pretty much never spoke about it but when I joined the dots, a LOT suddenly made sense about why he was how he was. I was able to accept, at least. Instead of trying to make things different, I concentrated on dealing with how they were. Imagine you think you've bought a puppy but it's actually a kitten. When you realize the truth, it won't fetch any better! ... but you see things in a new light.

Secondly. Some people are just - putting it in a neutral way - a bit messed up. Moreover they have no self-insight - THEY never do anything wrong, if there is a problem it's NEVER their fault. You may have worked with one or two and just learned to work round them until they pissed off the management and got fired. Um... It kind of sounds like your Dad has not yet had that moment of "maybe it's me..." and may never do so.

Bottom line there is, if he changes to become the sort of person you would want to be in contact with, he will make contact with you. Ultimately it's really not complicated to say, "I'm not proud of how I behaved, but now, I at least understand why I acted that way, and I'm trying to be different, can we slowly start afresh?" So in the most unlikely event that this does happen, even via your DB - sure be cautious, but be prepared to listen.

If he doesn't, then I'm sorry but he's probably still the same very flawed person that you're better off avoiding.
Unfortunately the latter case isn't rare. See the Stately Homes threads!

@halfhope

What new girls has said - totally agree. Been there OP and can understand why you became depressed - you're a sane person trying to make sense of the incomprehensible. I became much happier when I realised my relative's behaviour was off the charts dysfunctional in a sort of 'why does he do that?' way. With that came acceptance.

How long did it take you...I’m still struggling 10 years later, and every time a card arrives...and now this wedding

I'm heading up to 5 years no contact with both parents. Their marriage and behaviour totally disintegrated in retirement. I've done a lot on work on myself using Acceptance and Commitment therapy workbooks but a good therapist might help either. I've been scapegoated a lot over the years but now I've had to protect both myself and my family. I get the occasional 'hoovering' letter which i now ignore. The only thing I've asked them to do is get help and they've gone off in a strop.

I'm the same with the cards so now I don't open them. If it's affecting you this much take the time to talk to someone neutral over it. I feel for you. We are hardwired to love our parents no matter what they do but eventually we need to protect ourselves if they are very troubled.

@WoodchipWoodchip

Let's break this down into smaller chunks.

Have a word with the rellies who "update" you and say, look I know you mean well, but as Dad asked me not to contact him and it's not something I've 100% sorted out my feelings about, even now, it's best you discuss that sort of thing when I'm elsewhere.

(Something to consider - how did your DBs feel, what did they say, when they had brokered that early rapprochement, the meetup was agreed, and then he only visited them not you, after their efforts? Did neither of them say "so when are you seeing sis?" Aren't they upset by how he's behaved to you? Have they perhaps been a little not-very-nice too? What's the deal there? Maybe don't trust them entirely 100%....)

Cards: do you have an OH who could intercept and bin them? Otherwise just carry on binning.

Family gatherings. I understand how stressful it is but you do not appear to be the one who has behaved poorly. You've been invited, go, hold your head up high and avoid him, be blandly civil/produce a stony silence and head off to powder your nose ASAP if you're forced into conversation despite all this.

Ok so now the big one. Your feelings about all this.
Firstly: have a look at his own childhood and upbringing. I'm guessing it wasn't happy, that he was treated poorly. In my case my Dad pretty much never spoke about it but when I joined the dots, a LOT suddenly made sense about why he was how he was. I was able to accept, at least. Instead of trying to make things different, I concentrated on dealing with how they were. Imagine you think you've bought a puppy but it's actually a kitten. When you realize the truth, it won't fetch any better! ... but you see things in a new light.

Secondly. Some people are just - putting it in a neutral way - a bit messed up. Moreover they have no self-insight - THEY never do anything wrong, if there is a problem it's NEVER their fault. You may have worked with one or two and just learned to work round them until they pissed off the management and got fired. Um... It kind of sounds like your Dad has not yet had that moment of "maybe it's me..." and may never do so.

Bottom line there is, if he changes to become the sort of person you would want to be in contact with, he will make contact with you. Ultimately it's really not complicated to say, "I'm not proud of how I behaved, but now, I at least understand why I acted that way, and I'm trying to be different, can we slowly start afresh?" So in the most unlikely event that this does happen, even via your DB - sure be cautious, but be prepared to listen.

If he doesn't, then I'm sorry but he's probably still the same very flawed person that you're better off avoiding.
Unfortunately the latter case isn't rare. See the Stately Homes threads!

Thank you woodchip..some wise advice here. Re cards My DH attitude to what’s happened is not exactly helpful so I don’t even let him know or see when cards arrive. They’re only addressed to me anyway and he sends them with typed addressed I think it’s either get DB to tell him to stop, or continue to bin. Or I have thought about returning as addressee not known?

I agree his childhood is probably root of it. Oddly I think it was generally happy but his dad was away for years in WW2 and India partition. He’s an only child and my grandmother dotted on him..sheltered I’ve always thought..immature emotionally really. He may have been bullied at school though. He had never lived on his own and was terrified of that...it’s why he never left the marriage ( told me this when I was around 19 “ who would have me?”🤨)

@halfhope

I'm heading up to 5 years no contact with both parents. Their marriage and behaviour totally disintegrated in retirement. I've done a lot on work on myself using Acceptance and Commitment therapy workbooks but a good therapist might help either. I've been scapegoated a lot over the years but now I've had to protect both myself and my family. I get the occasional 'hoovering' letter which i now ignore. The only thing I've asked them to do is get help and they've gone off in a strop.

I’ve not heard of acceptance and commitment therapy- I’ll take a look. Thanks

No excuse but could you remind him of your dm and he feels ashamed of how he treated her? Maybe he knows you are wise to his failings ad he can't face you. I am nc with df. His dw turned him against me. He was obviously a weak man to allow that.
Tell sil you most certainly do not want any updates.

Hi, just found the stately home thread...omg...had no idea it was out there since 2007
Shows it’s a common problem😱
Thanks for the direction to look for it