Is it emotional abuse / controlling, or regular disagreements?

[isitreallyabuse]

I've been going over this in my mind for a while now. DH and I married for 8 years, together for 12. For complete transparency and so as not to drip feed, there is a large age gap. I feel this is significant.

We've been through the odd rough patch previously, but up until six months or so ago, I would have said we were generally happy. Now I'm not so sure. I've found this most recent lockdown really hard, so I've been trying out some new hobbies (covid permitted, online) and I've also made a point of keeping up with health-related appointments that I would probably have let slip in 'normal life' because it's something to do. DH is prone to periods of depression (I feel it is depression but isn't diagnosed) and has spent most of the last year seemingly happy to be stuck at home, with no desire or need to get out of the house or do anything at all really, beyond working (from home) and reading. We actually had words recently about his failure to pull his weight in the house which was leaving me with no time to do anything other than work and housework. That has improved significantly, but is has only been a couple of weeks. I am being driven slowly mad at home and also by his acceptance (happiness?) being home all of the time.

My problem is thata although he makes all the right noises about my hobbies and appointments, I know deep down he isn't keen on it. I was proven correct this evening when I mentioned I have a class on Thursday night, an appointment on Friday night and a class on Saturday night. The classes are around an hour and the appointment will see me out of the house for maybe 2.5 hours. His response was: "these appointments aren't going to be every Friday night are they, because that's not really a fun way for me to start the weekend" (i.e. because he will be home alone on a Friday night). It then became clearer when he "expressed concern" that I had got "all dressed up" for last weeks appointment, which he thought "was odd" because the appointment necessitates getting changed when I arrive. Sorry to be so vague, trying not to out myself here... i told him that it can still be controlling even if you don't explicitly try and stop someone from doing something. I said this because he was off with me when I got in on Friday night and a bit odd over the weekend too. His reaction makes me feel like I don't want to do these things because of the prolonged fall out.

I have no trouble standing up for myself and I'm not scared of him physically, but this isn't the first time we've had troubles over me doing my own thing. The last major time was a few years ago when I'd got my first "proper" job in London and was going out maybe once a week after work for drinks with my colleagues. One in particular I was friendly with was male, but 99% of the time was spent in groups. He hated this friendship so much, I gave it up in the end and left shortly afterwards (for other reasons). I'm starting to feel suffocated again and wondering if it's always going to be like this? Am I expected to "tow the line" forevermore? What would happen if I just kept doing my own thing? Am I being unreasonable?

His first wife cheated on him and they got divorced. I feel like I am living in her shadow. I also feel like the age gap may be catching up with us now. I also wonder whether he is actually going to give me the children he's promised me all along - and at this point - whether I would want them with him.

I think I already know what the wise people of MN will say. They will be pleased to know I am getting my ducks in a row, which is bloody hard with him constantly home and I feel like he's watching me.

In so many other ways he is great. Supports my career, loves me etc. Although I am starting to wonder whether he and/or I have confused love with possession...

It's hard, I didn't think I'd be in this position at nearly 33, contemplating divorce, wanting children and not yet having them.

Sorry there were originally paragraphs in that post!

I have confused love with possession...

There's your answer then.

I didn't think I'd be in this position at nearly 33, contemplating divorce, wanting children and not yet having them

You still have time to have what you want but not with him. I had a child at 36. Totally unexpected. Single mum but it has been totally amazing, even if a rollercoaster....You will never know your strength till you have to do it alone.

I don't think I can say that i think he's controlling from what you've said, it sounds more like different outlooks on things.

Like you I can understand his insecurity and I also get how frustrating this must be. Youre clearly much more outgoing than him, but I can't help but wonder that accusing him of being controlling for you getting 'dressed up' for an apt seems like a bit of an overreaction. Is there more context to this that you haven't shared?

You can't force him to pick up hobbies etc, if he really enjoys reading then that's a great one. What is it that's frustrating you so?

Is it seeing him lying around all the time or do you feel you're missing out on doing things together?

Him not pulling his weight domestically is rightly an issue that he needs to sort.

For all I know, you're still compatible in spite of your different natures but lockdown and covid has placed your marriage under understandable strain.

Do you actually want to have a future with him or have you already checked out?

How much older is he, and has he already had kids with his first wife? He could be stringing you along, he may feel too old to do it all again.
Sounds like he's insecure after his first wife, but that's not being fair on you, most people have had someone cheat at some time or other, it's that rife, but it's better to give benefit of doubt unless proven otherwise, anything else is unreasonable.
No harm in getting ducks in a row, then you will be set when ready. Carry on doing as you want, if he doesn't go anywhere or do anything, that's his problem. You will soon see if he escalates the disdain at your activities. Its as well you have not had children, he could well have pinned you down with them.

Do you know for a fact that his previous partner cheated? Because XH used to tell all and sundry that I left him because "she likes these younger men, you see" (his very words to the man at the CAB!). I left him because he was unbearable to live with for several reasons, including similar behaviour to your H. For example, his idea of "all dressed up" was showering and wearing clean uncrumpled clothes. He threw a massive strop one time I came home from work on a hot day with the placket of my polo shirt undone (the horror!). Obviously any work social event must largely consist of, or be a cover for, much shagging. We did have children, but I'm fairly sure, like a pp says, that the idea was to pin me down, although to be fair there is no doubt that he loved them. Like you, there was an age gap which I think he was far more bothered by than I was. I sometimes felt I was married to my father whilst at other times it was more like having an extra child.

To be fair to your H, this on-off part-lockdown situation is hard on a lot of people. When one goes out and the other one hardly ever does, even if it's mostly voluntary, it's bound to skew the perspective, and anxiety and paranoia seem to be on the up in many quarters. However, although that may be a reason it's not an excuse for taking it out on you. There's also no excuse for holding over you the promise of children you never actually get round to having until you're too old anyway and you "might as well" stay with this partner for the rest of your... argh argh argh!

On balance, if you are already planning how to leave I reckon it's all over bar the (hopefully low-key) shouting. I also suspect your H had such tendencies previously but that it was less obvious before you were shut in together. XH would have embraced lockdown big-time and would never have wanted me to go out again. All for my own safety, obviously

OP - I wonder whether you're asking about emotional abuse because you believe your DH has to be abusing you in order for you to be able to justify leaving him? That's not the case. Particularly since you don't have children together, you can leave him because you realise that you're not compatible.

What you describe is a tad controlling but doesn't sound desperately serious in itself. I do have some slight sympathy with his response to you being out on Thursday evening, Friday evening and Saturday evening. In our household, in normal times, Friday or Saturday evening would generally be regarded as family time - I would be a bit surprised if my DH started doing solo activities on both Friday and Saturday evenings. But these aren't normal times and these things mean less when everyone is together throughout the week.

The reality is that it does sound as if your age difference is starting to take its toll and he sounds particularly undynamic. You don't say what the age difference is but it sounds like he's a different generation from you, and you were very young when you got together. I am a bit suspicious of middle-aged men who get together with very young women - it can often be about avoiding the demands and expectations a woman their own age might have. It can be a bit emotionally immature on the man's part. And it is odd that you've been together so long and still don't have children - if he's already feeling a bit past it, he's unlikely to feel more like having children in the future. No doubt he has many good qualities but it does sound rather as if the age gap is going to become an increasing issue.

I'm not saying you should end the marriage, OP, but he doesn't have to be a bad person or do bad things for you to do so, particularly since you don't have children.

It doesn’t seem like it’s working for you
He shouldn’t be telling you what you can do or who you can befriend. It’s not like you were out all night on any of those occasions not that this is an issue either. I wouldn’t like someone who didn’t let me have my independence.

Maybe you’re just not very compatible

How old is he.?

@Iflyaway I am starting to think I will be doing this on my own. I'm confident I could, but I suppose you never start out thinking you will become a lone parent - at least I didn't.

@TaraR2020 on the getting 'dressed up' - I think this accusation took me right back to a few years ago when I was being accused of all sorts and therefore it instantly got my back up. For context, I do not consider a grey jumper dress and boots with a small heel 'all dressed up'. Perhaps he had a problem with the underwear I was wearing, he didn't say. To be honest, I'm not really comfortable with having to wonder what underwear is acceptable to him. I agree I can't force him to pick hobbies and I have no wish to, I also enjoy reading. I just don't think it seems healthy to be perfectly happy to not leave the house for weeks on end. We have our shopping delivered, work from home, don't have to go to the pharmacy or have DC to run around for. It can literally be weeks without him going anywhere. Plus he never used to be like this. Is it age, lockdown, depression? I try to talk to him about it. It feels like has no zest for life and that is depressing for me!

@Opentooffers and @Bluntness100 he is 21 years older than me. I am 32, he is 53. He has no DC as first wife didn't want them. I was 19 when I met him and undoubtedly a completely different person. Working in a local job, no uni. He lived in a glamourous place (well, it was glamourous to my 19 year-old self) and introduced me to good food, wine etc. Now I am a 30-something professional with my own likes and dislikes, ideas about the world...

@Anniegetyourgun yes, I do know for sure, probably outing to say how, but definitely true! Your post really resonated with me, especially "I sometimes felt I was married to my father whilst at other times it was more like having an extra child". How long were you together and how long did it take you to leave? I hope you are much happier now, it sounds like you would be!

@Dery maybe you are right. Maybe it is also because he has (indirectly) accused me of being abusive in the past. MN has taught me that is a red flag and so I was interested to hear other people's perceptions... To clarify, I'm not out Thursday, Friday and Saturday - only the Friday. The Thursday and Saturday are one hour online classes. This week will be the first time I've done the classes. After we have spent all week together and have the rest of the weekend to do the same...

@Shoxfordian those were my thoughts, but I did wonder if I was being unreasonable. I don't think I'm any clearer yet to be honest! Ultimately I just find the neediness and clinginess a real turn off. It's obviously nice to be loved and wanted, but I feel like my life is not my own. No doubt this is magnified by lockdown and some ongoing family issues I won't cloud this post with, but I am starting to wonder whether this is really sustainable in the long(er) run.

I would be concerned he's not going to want children. He sounds very set in his ways (I'm a bit older than him at 56 but in normal times would be out in the evenings several times a week doing my activities. My late 60's husband is happy to stay home on his own without casting aspersions as to what I'm doing. Sorry to say it but have you changed so much as you've matured that you want different things in life?

We divorced a few months before our 25th anniversary. That was coming up for 15 years ago. Much, much happier now, thank you. I haven't bothered to date again. Can't be doing with the hassle. Currently one adult DC still lives with me so I've got someone to reach the light bulbs or carry the other end of a sofa, i.e. the important things. I put my own bins out. XH didn't believe in throwing anything away, including actual litter

You’ve changed so much since that 19 year old who needed to be introduced to his “sophisticated” world. He probably liked showing you things and teaching you the best wine to have with a steak or whatever but you’re an adult woman with your own opinions which can challenge his now

It seems like you’ve changed and he doesn’t like not being the older one you look up to

Op, I agree it's hardly a dressy outfit! I understand why his comment/accusation was triggering for you though.

Its increasingly sounding like you might not be compatible anymore but I wonder if the apathy he currently displays has occurred just since covid?

I think @Dery 's post was spot on. If you feel the relationship is no longer a good fit for you, you don't need to otherwise justify breaking up if that's what you want to do.

Its just a bit hard to know what you're asking...

He still doesn't sound abusive but I'd be very passed off if my oh made such comments to me. If you're just trying to work out how you feel about the relationship, then I think we're mostly in agreement that you might have outgrown it. But we don't have all the details and are conscious of the effect of the pandemic on peoples moods and motivations.

So if you want to stay in the relationship, you'll get different advice than if you're getting ready to end it. Both of which are fine.

Understood, OP.

I still think this relationship no longer sounds right for you. He’s still young really but if he’s already slowing down he’s really going to struggle with the demands of parenthood. And if he’s already slowing down, how will you feel when you’re only 53 and he’s 75?

I have limited sympathy for him because I don’t really think a 41 yo man has any business dating a 19 yo woman, but I’m overly judgmental about these things, I know.

Even if he’s generally the nicest man in the world, you’re allowed to reclaim your freedom. You don’t owe it to him to remain married to him if this relationship no longer works for you.

@Anniegetyourgun another similarity - he collects everything. Currently empty yoghurt tubs because they might be useful. FFS.

@Shoxfordian I think you are spot on. He makes all the right noises about how I'm a much more "rounded" person now (well obviously, I'm a proper adult now) but in reality, I think he finds it difficult that I am no longer "in awe" of him. He probably felt it was all so easy to keep me interested before, but less easy now. Not that I need to be "kept interested", but I think you will know what I mean. I also think he is so conscious of his increasing age and whether I still find him attractive. He is so worried about losing me, he is actually pushing me away.

@TaraR2020 the apathy is definitely worse since covid, but has probably been getting steadily worse over the last 2 - 3 years. It makes me think he's just hit that point in age. But I do know other similar aged men who couldn't be more different...I don't really know what I'm asking either I suppose. You are right that I don't need to justify it if it is no longer working for me. There is always the worry about jumping out the frying pan and into the fire, but that's not really a good enough reason to stay with someone is it? If I had no fears about security, children, being alone forever more (and particularly in old age) - I would be alone. I yearn for time to myself and not having to answer to someone else. But I am scared and it's not exactly a decision you can undo. What if I'm wrong? Maybe it would help to talk it out with a counsellor.

It sounds like it’s run it’s course really
It doesn’t have to be horribly abusive for it not to be a good relationship for you
A counsellor would also be a really good idea

@Dery Sadly, I think you are right. Funnily enough he always says he is "concerned" that I "might not cope" with parenthood. I think we can all see this is a smokescreen for him not coping or wanting to do it.

Why do I feel like I do owe it to him? Is it because I know how much he was hurt in the past, how he went all out to secure his home and how that wouldn't be possible this time? We would have to sell. I hate the idea of doing that to him.

It's funny, I would have been really offended at your age-related comment in the past, but you are right. 99 times out of 100, it is not appropriate and/or it will never last. It's certainly rarely in the younger partner's best interests, as I am finding now to my detriment.

No, that's not a good enough reason to stay with someone :)

I'm not surprised you're scared about being alone, most people are but you were so young when you got together that you've never lived as a free, independent adult- it's bound to be frightening.

I can only speak for myself, but I value my freedom and independence too much to stay in a relationship that drains me and since learning how to be happy in my own company I'm much more confident as a person.

A counsellor can be really helpful.

Do you still love him? Are you still in love with him?

If you had a dd with him would you be happy he was so critical towards her?

Oh OP you sound stuck and unhappy at the very least in a relationship that no longer works for you.

You are at different stages in life and what was exciting when you first met now is boring to you.

That is ok - you need to do YOU. You are your only priority here and making the most of your life and I think you know in order to do that you need to leave

It is really difficult, OP. I'm sure your H has many good qualities but yes, the age gap is not in your best interests and probably never was - not as a lifetime partnership in any event. Of course there are exceptions. If he were full of verve and vigour, if he'd embarked on family life with you and was proving to be a hands-on father etc, then the age difference would probably seem irrelevant. 53 is still pretty young and there's no reason for him to living at a pedestrian pace. The grandparent generation in our family are in their 70s and 80s and are very busy and active.

But it sounds like he has tried to talk you out of having children when in fact having children is really important to you. And he's been dishonest about it. Of course, you would cope with parenthood. What he really means, as you say, is that he doesn't want to have to deal with having children and quite possibly he doesn't want to share you with children. He wants to continue to have your undivided time and attention and he knows he would get very little of that in the early years of parenting.

As to you being scared of going it alone: my mum married at 18 and divorced decades later - her first experience of living as an independent adult was in her early 50s. And she did really well at it! It may be new to you and there may be some things you have to learn but you will absolutely be fine if you decide to go it alone.

I'm sure your H has qualities which make it painful to consider parting from him. You're bound to have feelings of sadness about it even if you do decide that it's the right thing to do. But you can't live your life to suit him. Life is not a dress rehearsal. This is your one shot and you owe it to yourself to live it to the fullest. For you, that includes having children and raising a family with a partner who wants to be part of that adventure. It also includes being able to dress as you wish and socialise as you choose and not have to diminish yourself because of his insecurities. It's not at all clear that he's the man for you in those circumstances.

I think you are right to go through all of these thoughts. You are thinking sensibly about your future and how that will work with him, now that you have matured. These large age gaps are so often trouble. No one want to think like that about their own partner, but often the man loves the ego boost and attention of a younger woman. They don't always take well to realizing that their other half is no longer and inexperienced woman like she used to be. It's far more of a level playing field.

I do see his point about the weekend, but it's a funny way of phrasing it, isn't it? It isn't a fun way for HIM to start the weekend.....like it's all about him. Poorly chosen words maybe.

I think the energy level and enthusiasm difference is only going to grow between you. I sympathise. My partner is very happy for me to have time out and go all sorts of places for hobbies. I get none of the disapproval you've had because he's so highly introverted that he likes this time for himself. However, it's no fun to be out with your partner of they're unhappy or sort of 'meh' about it. Might as well be alone.

I think you might be looking for legitimate reasons to leave. Expressing dissatisfaction is not the same as willingly and actively controlling. The effect it has on the other person might be the same though, but it's important to realise the difference. If we don't, we can land ourselves in a position where we are not allowed to show unhappiness or dissatisfaction about anything, lest someone label US as controlling.

I have a feeling that if you had kids, you would have to do absolutely everything. I can't imagine him taking them to play dates or being enthusiastic about having family days out.

People can be very different & express that difference without it being emotional abuse or controlling. He probably would just genuinely prefer to spend Friday night with you. I must admit when I’m with someone Friday night is my favourite time to hang out - feels like a prize at the end of the week.

My ex used to work every Friday night though.

I haven’t read all the responses on purpose but please don’t feel like you need to get permission from strangers on MN to leave your husband.

He's a middle aged fun sponge.

Have you tried talking to him about how you feel? Have you tried to get him on board with some of your interests? Does he engage or is he not arsed?

I've been in your shoes and DHs shoes too. I was really miserable, and felt awful about myself. I did resent DH doing things without me because I felt like it meant he didn't care. Once I started getting out more and doing things for myself again, we all felt better and got along better. Right now, my DH has got a bit apathetic with Covid and he is doing my head in. I hear you with needing to get out of the house and being alone!

I wouldn't have DC with him. It sounds like you would be doing the lion's share if you did. If he's not supportive of you doing your own thing now, he most certainly won't be on board if he's having to look after a baby to facilitate it for you!!