Does ex deserve family mediation? (soz - long-winded)

[Christoncrutches]

Potted history - Split up almost 11 years ago when kids were wee - Girls now 12 & 15.

Ended relationship due to his inability to take responsibility for himself. I became his mum, essentially... Shortly after splitting, he lost his job and he hasn't paid any maintenance since. Made a right song and dance about me finding new partner (dedicated step dad who financially co-supports them with me for almost 10 years) and he has been a feckin nightmare on and off ever since - mostly verbal ranting (mainly emails) and being difficult about taking girls, not co-parenting, not seeing girls on and off because he was 'depressed' or 'too poor' (whilst going on 2 week foreign holidays and maintaining a smoking habit). Series of girlfriends but none have stuck. Series of mental health issues -he mentioned bipolar once but not sure if that's official - defo clinical depression, but I suspect a personality disorder, and physical health problems (COPD due to smoking).

Regardless, I've always tried to promote his relationship with the girls, mainly because they were blind to his flaws and enjoyed the time they spent together. He's always tried to engage with them as a friend, rather than a dad - eg cringy text conversations that start 'yo girlfriend!' and complete lack of structure/discipline and I always wondered if their feelings about him might change as they grew up and took a bit more notice.

Fast fwd to last year or so, when they gradually became less keen on seeing him/spending time with him. My eldest (15) has been particularly reluctant to see him and my youngest is catching up fast.

This Christmas it was his turn to have them so we made the usual arrangements, encouraging the girls to keep their commitment as they were making reluctant noises... Christmas day we made an agreement for them to tell me when they were opening their pressies so I could call afterwards but they never called and I was getting worried, texting them and calling etc. Eventually I got a one-line response from my youngest saying 'please come and get us mum - quickly'.

I tried responding, asking what had happened - all whilst putting shoes on and getting into the car as the text really worried me - the tone of it was so strange and it was completely unexpected. Nothing like this had ever happened before. It's also a 30min drive so I was worried something serious was unfolding. Ex has never been violent to girls in any way but there was an isolated incident with me towards end of our relationship and I just generally don't trust him - he's unpredictable and emotionally very up and down. He also took the girls away overnight without telling me a few years ago, triggering a police hunt across the bloody country. He hadn't seen the girls for months before that because he was suicidal so I genuinely thought he'd lost it.

My partner communicated with her all the way there as she was too upset to answer the phone/speak. She wouldn't tell us what had caused this though, just that she was too upset/crying too much to talk and that my eldest was packing and trying to calm their dad. With that, we called the police to explain and they agreed it warranted a visit. I asked them to meet us there in case I couldn't get access (partner didn't want to add flames by storming in) but as it turned out, the girls came out themselves - they were pretty hysterical, looked exhausted and didn't want to talk about it. We didn't push them, gave them as good a xmas day as possible then talked the next day - turns out he had had a meltdown because the girls 'didn't like him anymore' - he told them to go back to their 'real home' and kept flipping from telling them 'you're all that I've got' to 'why are you not more upset?'

Basic emotional blackmail - trying to gaslight them into a response to justify his victim mentality. He did it to me all the time.

Turns out, after much talking, they've been picking up on his emotional manipulation for a while - he also bad mouths me apparently then is fake-nice to my face (obvs I knew his real feelings, but I thought they were buying his act), and they feel really uncomfortable with it all - they want him to be a dad, not someone who tells them all about his problems then manipulates them into feeling responsible when he's upset. Basically, they can finally smell his bullshit and he's thrown his toys out of the pram.

They've asked for space and no contact but he's pushing for mediation/resolution - saying he can't sort it out if he can't contact them. He's now arranged family mediation and has asked me to pay half!! Girls are reluctant but they agree they'll have to talk to him at some point - he's a dark cloud at this point and it's increasingly hard to ignore him.

I'm going to arrange counselling for the girls anyway, to help them vocalise their feelings and hopefully feel more confident about voicing their opinions. I think he expects a quick chat then they'll start visiting him again. Meanwhile, I can't imagine trusting him enough for that ever to happen....

Your daughters are at a very vulnerable stage in their lives - teen years with all the pressures, hormonal changes, school work and pressures - trying to work out who they are and how they want to be. Assume you are also in a country with lockdown issues and the implications for them. They are now having to come to terms with the fact that their dad was not the cool friend they thought he was when they were children; they are seeing, with more grown up eyes, the man he actually is.

Your priority is their mental health and well being. Keep this at the forefront of your mind at all times.

Listen to them - his wants do not play a role. Their needs are crucial.
If you feel you don’t trust him, is contact appropriate?
They need to feel comfortable and ready for mediation.
They need to decide if and when and where to spend time with him now - not him.
Stay strong and ignore him currently if they are wanting space - you daughters need to feel 100% secure in your protection.
Counselling for them sounds like a good idea to help them come to terms with who their father is.
Best wishes

Family mediation is a bad idea - he will make it all about him. Perhaps some counselling for your DC - but the genie is out of the bottle now and they can’t go back to seeing their father as he was. I would support them in not seeing him for a while/ until they are adults. You need to protect them from him.

Counselling for the girls as pp suggested. They're better off without him at the moment and can choose to reconnect when adults.

From experience I know that you cannot reason with stupid or abusive, he sounds like both.

I think the girls need some time and someone to talk it through with BEFORE mediation. It’s not fair fir them to go into mediation without the opportunity to explore their own feelings first.
So I’d say yes to mediation but not until after the girls have some time.

I would not recommend mediation at all at the moment - he has sounds abusive towards them and they need space and counselling away from him

He's abusive. Joint therapy with an abuser is unsafe.

If they don't want to see him, they never have to see him again.

Careful not to confuse your emotions about his role as their father with what is in their best interests.

The best thing you can do for them is listen to and respect their "no" .

They are old enough for their opinions to carry some weight when it comes to seeing their father. I think some counselling is an excellent idea. I also think that telling their father that there will be no mediation or contact until his daughters ask for it, would be the way to go. If he is willing he could perhaps write to them via you, and you can pass his messages along, if the girls want to see them. But I doubt he will be willing to do that because its not about building a relationship up with his daughters needs at heart, for him. It's about him and his wants and needs, and everything else is secondary. As for paying half of any mediation, that would be a big fat nope from me. Why are you expected to pay towards solving problems which are entirely of his own making?

Thanks everyone - am surprisingly emotional reading your responses...

I’ve been dealing with his nonsense for so long that sometimes I second guess my instincts - Objectively I know that THAT is exactly what he’s trying to do here - minimise his behaviour so I doubt myself and give in. His first text to me after Christmas was to say he didn’t want to see girls anymore because he couldn’t handle my ‘cruelty’. He gets inside your head and makes you wonder if perhaps you might be somehow in the wrong then exploits that. And yes, the lockdown has also brought things to a head somewhat as he went without seeing them for the first few months but had been back to regular contact latterly. He’s using it as an excuse now, saying its caused his mental health to decline (yes - all about him!).

@farnworth your comments about the girls mental health hit the nail on the head - we had to get cahms involved last year for my eldest because of low mood and self harn, and the sessions revealed just how much of an emotional load she’s been carrying about; worrying about her dad’s welfare... She’s doing much better now but I don’t want to compromise that by flinging her into a risky situation.

I’m going to arrange the counselling and put the rest on hold. He’ll just have to deal with it. When I put my foot down, it always triggers his wrath but I’ve blocked his number so he can only contact us via email.

@Christoncrutches I think your thread title is quite telling, you ask 'Does ex deserve mediation?' I think you need to change your mindset a bit, (and I appreciate it's hard to do so, you've been conditioned over the years to a way of thinking). But forget about what he deserves, and focus on what your children need, want and deserve, and what you do too. His needs and what he deserves are his own problems to sort out. You have enough to focus on without taking his issues onto your plate.

@katmarie - a fair point - tbh I struggled to think of a thread title as it's a fairly convoluted story... of course my girls are my number 1 priority in all of this and I think I've been trying to be objective about how this could affect them long term, which has led to me feeling conflicted.

I don't have contact with my parents and never got the chance to vocalise my feelings, so I don't want them to carry around that burden if they don't have to BUT I agree with everyone that if the girls aren't ready, it would be counterproductive. I think I just needed a bit more confidence in my conviction - me and my partner feel like we exist in a bit of an echo chamber at the moment and wanted to get some outside opinions. I certainly don't want to be doing his bidding - you're bang on - his needs are his problem. He has a way of making his problems everyone else's responsibility!

Hi - family mediation is a replacement and usually a pre-requisite before applying for a child arrangements order through court. He may not choose to do this, but it would be worth reading this blog to make sure you are making decisions from a position of knowing all the options and possible consequences of declining mediation.

www.mediateuk.co.uk/will-it-look-bad-if-i-refuse-to-go-to-mediation/

At the ages your daughters are, they can have a say in the process and this can be done in mediation, through child inclusive mediation. Their thoughts, feelings and hopes can be shared with both parents once they have spoken to a specially trained mediator. Both parents and the girls need to agree to this.

I hope that helps a little and best of luck with sorting everything out! Amber

Jesus, fuck that. If he had been physically violent you wouldn't even be considering this. The reality is he has been emotionally destructive, which has ever bit as much potential for long-term harm at this vulnerable point in his young daughters' lives.

I would be giving a firm no to mediation and seeking help for your daughters to help them process what sounds like years of emotional manipulation at his hands. If they choose to reopen communication with him later on, then you can support them in this. But absolutely no way should they end up as collateral damage in his realisation that he is a fucking useless human being and father.

Sorry if that sounds harsh - it is in no way meant to put the blame on you - but it sounds like years of dealing with this shit has blunted your awareness of how awful this behaviour is.

@cheeseismydownfall - you're right of course, emotional abuse is just as harmful, but it tends to be insidious and creep up on you. He'll also go through episodes of being fairly normal (often when he's in a relationship) and we'll get semi-used to that, only for things to descend again. Our mantra has become 'hope for the best but expect the worst' when dealing with him.

They've had no contact with for a month now and they're getting on with home-schooling and coping with lockdown really well considering - Cahms helped us put strategies in place for when my eldest is feeling low (keeping a diary, exercise, talking to friends) and I certainly don't want to compromise that or as you say, cause any additional damage to them because he can't cope.

I think I'll talk to them again and let them know that they can let me know when they want to look again at mediation - I found one service that allows the child to talk to the mediator, who then relays their thoughts on to the adult, rather than have to have a direct dialogue. But, they need to feel like they're in the driving seat here, and he's trying to rush them (and me) into finding a resolution.

Unless he has a personality transplant, I can't imagine what a resolution might look like anyway - we're certainly not happy with the girls going to his house anymore, even if they wanted to!

@Arabella9 - yes, that has been on my mind, hence entertaining the idea... he always makes a noise about seeking legal help, court orders blahblah, but I can't imagine him actually managing to put those wheels in motion. I've received some advice anyway, just in case, and from what I can see - the courts would be steered by what the girls want as they're both 12+yold. My eldest is 16 this year and youngest is 13 in a couple of months.