Can someone give me a sense of whether this is a fair settlement?

[catcuriosity]

DH and I are in a bad place, and seeing a therapist to try and get to a better place.

Unfortunately, last year, DH went to see a solicitor about what would happen in the event of us splitting, and I got sight of the notes from that meeting, where his very aggressive lawyer listed how she could minimise the amount of maintenance he would have to pay, and how he could fight to keep 50% of the equity.

We often come back to this in arguments, so one of the things our therapist has suggested is that we get a post-nup agreement which sets out what happens if we do split, agreed by us in calmer times, to negate the need for aggressive lawyers if the worst happens.

The idea being is that it takes the threat away from me, I can calm down and work on the now instead of being on high alert for a potential future legal fight, and that it also builds trust by showing he would put DC first and not screw down maintenance.

We know the process required to ratify the post-nup, and the legal costs required, but we have to agree the contents between us and agree that it is fair to both sides.

However, I wonder if I have lost perspective on it now, so would welcome your opinions on whether this is fair (not whether I would be able to squeeze more out if it went to court!)

We are both high earners, but DH currently earns about 30-40% more than me.
The equity in our house would allow us to either stay in the same area (SW London) but downsize to flats, or move further out to be in a house.

The proposed post-nup suggests equity split 60/40 in my favour which I think is what any court would award
Then DH is proposing we add up the total costs for DC (nursery/school fees, clubs, sports, childcare etc etc) and for him to pay 60% of those, up to a total of 25% of his salary
I would also get 25% of his annual bonus as a contribution towards holidays etc
Our pensions are similar, so we leave those alone
I don't have any claim on a potentially-large inheritance DH will get at some point

DH has suggested it would get reviewed every 3 years in case our relative earnings had changed, and I've suggested an infidelity penalty, where if he has an affair, I get 65-70% of the equity

Wise MNers, what do you think of this?
Anything missing?

Then no, it is not fair to expect a solicitor to not fight your corner & not advise you on the best possible potential outcomes for you in a divorce.

You were surprised a lawyer sounded combative? Really? That’s their job. To fight for their client.

You sound keener on the idea of ski trips than getting him to agree to pay for private school fees.

You sounds angry & delusional about the reality of your marriage. If you feel like you need an infidelity clause the writing is on the wall. You just don’t want to see it.

You think you can stop him if he wants to meet up with someone on the sly? You can’t. You can’t control what someone does like that. Otherwise when people get married there would be no affairs because they made a vow at the alter.

Vows are words & contracts are pieces of paper. It’s how you both feel about each other which is important & nowhere does it sound like you love each other.

Your kids must know you hate each other, or at least you hate him.

Christ, more money more problems.

I'm not a high flying career woman. We don't have much money. We don't even own our own home.
Maybe I'm too in love with DH to see past it but honestly just split everything 50/50. Or if you must 60/40.

Why such high demand and drama about who gets what. Especially this clause about infidelity.
Is money really that important? I guess if you have a lot of money it seems like it's worth everything. It's not.

You've hardly spoke about your children. Surely they're the most important thing here.

If you can both give them a home to see you in and they can be fed and clothed then don't spend so much time worrying about who gets what and why.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your DC. That must be tough on your marriage.

Is couples therapy helping?
Do you really think DH wants an affair?

I agree the infidelity clause is a bad idea. How will you prove the infidelity? It has the potential to make a split worse.

On the other points I think the issue on maintenance your way is how are you going to calculate all of those expenses? Does he get to insist on receipts? What if you want DD to play violin and he wants her to play recorder - does he have to pay the costs of buying a violin?

You need to make the whole thing dependent on a set amount or a % of his income. You can explain that you got to that by adding up XXX but you don't want to end up having to prove it to him. If you go down that route you are giving him a lot of long term control over your finances.

You sound keener on the idea of ski trips than getting him to agree to pay for private school fees.

You’ve said some dubious stuff in your posts but this takes the biscuit

School fees are locked in with his offer of splitting costs 60/40 rather than giving me the CSA amount - his suggestion
Allowing them a nice annual holiday with me - his suggestion

The whataboutery that this somehow means I won’t let him go on holiday with Dh and his new girlfriend?!
DH idea of a skiing holiday is bombing down black runs; mine is pottering through trees
Of course he wants me to be carrying on with ski holidays with kids and I couldn’t be happier

That’s really not the point though

We have seen a couple of therapists, including our current one, who have all said that our marriage needs work but has a fundamental base of love and shared values

However, we have lost ourselves in recent events and need help getting back on track

I don’t hate him, I love him, but I wish things were different in a number of ways and that’s what we are working on

It sounds like the trust has gone on both sides and you are both equally grabby/greedy individuals

Do you want a DH who is only staying with you because the financial penalties of divorce are too great to leave?

You talk of nursery so assume DC are still only small. Do you really want to live the rest of your life 'sharing' your life with a man who you know would try to financially screw you if the opportunity arose?

Oh, just break up now and have done with it. It sounds like a hideous way to live.

I agree the infidelity clause is a bad idea. How will you prove the infidelity? It has the potential to make a split worse

Adultery is one of the grounds for divorce. There are various ways in which it is proven for the courts to accept
I suppose my thinking was that if I used adultery to divorce him (instead of separation or unreasonable behaviour) the equity split would be different

It sounds like this would be harder to enforce than I envisaged so will probably strike it out

Name change OP!!

Some of your posts are green. Some are not. Sorry thought you may have forgot to name change.

In the Uk you do not get a financial penalty for behaviour.

For longer term marriages the starting point is 50/50. This is counterbalanced by needs. The needs of each of you and the children.

maintenance foe childrne is no longer governed by the courts. But housing needs for the primary parent might be.

Go and see a solicitor yourself. But honestly, if the relationship has broken down to this extent I think you should cut your losses. Split it fairly and move on.

My overriding requirement is that DC shouldn't suffer a drop in lifestyle as a result of a divorce

Yes, if there's one thing that really upsets small children when their parents split up, it's the thought that they might 'suffer a drop in lifestyle'.

The courts do not give a flying fuck why the marriage has broken down or who is at fault. Sorry about that. But at the end of the day it comes down to a financial formula.

The courts will only care if behaviour has been SO despicable it is has to play a part. Think sexual abuse of children / major fraud etc. Otherwise relying on behaviour to get a better settlement is not going to happen.

somersetHamlyn

I beg to differ
Being told they have to move schools, aren’t allowed to carry on with swimming lessons, are moving away from their friends and the pets have got to go because we haven’t got space anymore - my DC would be very upset at that, which DH and both recognise that and don’t want it to happen

The courts do not give a flying fuck why the marriage has broken down or who is at fault

Not sure if you’ve read my posts but the whole point of a post nup is to avoid this going to court
So not sure why that is relevant?

I don't know why you are getting such a hard time op, I don't think they like high earners on mumsnet. I think it all sounds reasonable apart from the affair clause and that is purely as it will invalidate the post nup and make it seem ridiculous
People come back from far worse things and make a marriage work. I think if you both want it to work it has every chance.
Certainly when we worked on our marriage the financial incentive was a large part of it for both of us, divorce makes everyone poorer and we are high net worth too.
We now are happier than ever weirdly .. it isn't perfect but things rarely are and I am v happy with the trade offs I have made

His lawyer is aggressive as I imagine she is expensive and as such see’s a lot very wealthy families go through divorce.
Your desire that DC are financially immune from the divorce is totally understandable but the result for your husband might not be fair. His lawyer is basically anticipating you would get out the big guns to get what you want because she has seen countless spouses do the same - and it sounds like you would.

I can see the sense in a post nup. The fidelity clause is nonsense as with everything else he is offering it’s possibly unlikely a court would give you 65%.

yes OP i read your posts. But the post nup idea and infidelity clause is a nonsense. If you distrust each other to that extent (and he has seen an expensive solicitor) then to be honest you would be better off going to court and getting a judge to deal with it fair and square. Mediating your way through it with what you describe as a money oriented and fight-inclined spouse is probably just putting off the inevitable, and would be more painful and costly in the long run.

As I said- go and see a solicitor yourself. Then you know where you stand.

@catcuriosity

somersetHamlyn

I beg to differ
Being told they have to move schools, aren’t allowed to carry on with swimming lessons, are moving away from their friends and the pets have got to go because we haven’t got space anymore - my DC would be very upset at that, which DH and both recognise that and don’t want it to happen

Come on OP. Unless you live in a mansion with 10 dogs and every console, toy, after school activity and holiday you can imagine. Your DCs lives aren't going to be worse off because there well off parents are divorced.

Money causes so many problems. Mostly when it starts getting taken away from you.

Know that your DCs will be fine in the long run, even if they do have to live slightly below what they are used to. Money isn't the issue here. For the DCs anyway.

Why would the pets have to go? You said earlier you would be able to afford a house. Also why would they have to stop swimming if you’re a high earner?

OP the thing is that IF you split up having the adultery clause there is another thing to get nasty about.

Suppose you suspect an affair but don't know for sure - you probably won't be able to accept it until you know for sure. This is hard enough anyway but here there's a financial incentive for you to justify obsessing over it.

Equally, suppose you never suspect a thing, manage a decent co-parenting relationship and then years later it comes out he had an affair and didn't tell you. It would destroy everything again

The vast majority of divorces aren't contested and so there's never a need to prove adultery. Most respondents would be told not to contest a petition based in adultery if they want to get divorced because it doesn't actually matter what the grounds for divorce are. Here there is a lot of money at stake and you could end up spending a fortune in legal fees to prove it.

Ok, point taken about adultery...

Gutful, I think you need to have a bit of reflection on why you are so combative and aggressive on these threads? This isn't AIBU, this is a topic where posters come with problems and issues, looking for advice
Having you being an attack dog isn't going to help anyone.

At least when AF gives tough love, it is constructive. You're just being nasty.

You have replied more than anyone else to this thread, but haven't actually answered the question about the settlement being fair.
You seem utterly hung up on the concept of a post-nup. You've passed judgement on my marriage being over, me being grabby, and you've also said a post-nup 'wouldn't be worth the paper it is written on' which suggests you actually know next to nothing about the legal side of divorce.

I was coming back to tentatively comment on what I perceive to be your aggressive tone, then I rid a quick page refresh and saw your comment to Gutful.

Catcuriosity
I have re-read the full thread and to me you are coming across as one very angry person - don't get me wrong you have every right to be angry as your marriage is under threat. I have also re-read Gutful and I don't see Gutful's comments as combative or aggressive or nasty.

You may not like what Gutful has said, you may not like what I have said, but even on a gentler board like 'Relationships', you will very very rarely get a 100% agreement from posters.

DPotter
Gutful has called me 'delusional', said that my DCs can see I hate my husband, told me several times my marriage is over, suggested that my therapist is sneakily trying to steer me to splitting up with DH because I don't listen in therapy, and that I'm keener on the idea of a skiing holiday than my kids education.

All that, based on my post about wanting to follow the advice of an experienced therapist and get a legal document drawn up.

I see that as nasty, and I'm pretty amazed you don't.

I'm not angry at all.

I'm probably coming across as quite defensive, because I've asked a pretty clear question, and have been bombarded with irrelevant questions, told repeatedly that my marriage must be over and that I'm grabby and selfish
I've done my best to answer those questions, and defend myself against some of the outrageous assumptions people have made about me

I have never heard of this prenup inside marriage and a solicitor will tell you what you want to hear. A solicitor can write a letter saying the sky is yellow in a letter if you ask them.

I think what your therapist is trying to do is indeed give you a blanket of security, and whilst I don't know the enforceability of this said pre nup, it will or can be used for mediation on the financial affairs if either party starts to play nasty.