Love, lust, infatuation, something else?

[JH20]

Hi everyone, have read some of these forums before, but first time poster.

There is some detail to give context, but I’ll try to keep it as brief as possible.

I know there is no ‘right’ answer to the following sort of scenario, but would welcome all opinions, and perhaps stories if any of you have encountered similar.

Background: I’m male, single mid-30s, and have been friends with Este (not her real name), for nearly 20 years, as part of a wider friendship group. She is also single.

There has never been anything romantic between us, but my feelings for her seem to grow with every year. If we go a fair while without contact they can wane, understandably, but there are other times when it’s so intense I feel like a lovesick teenager.

Two scenarios: in 2015, I saw her for the first time in a fair while, and spent much of a weekend with her (and others), before she went away travelling for a few months. Having seen her, and then be so far away from her, over Christmas and the new year, I felt desperately sad, and exhibited all the classic symptoms - felt sick, couldn’t eat etc.

Late last year, we started seeing each other (again with others) a bit more. Then, after an understandable hiatus earlier this year, when restrictions were lifted in late summer, we saw each other quite a bit, and on a few occasions this time it was just us two.

So now, I think about her all the time, basically. I’d look forward to seeing her, would love spending time with her, and then would be, and am, sad when I don’t or can’t see her for a while, such as now.

It’s weird, because when I am with her, even though there may be other feelings bubbling elsewhere, I’m present in the moment purely as her friend. I really don’t want to be Love Actually creepy or anything...

Anything else aside, I consider her a really, really good friend, and love her as a friend. I think she would hopefully feel similar-ish, though not as strongly I imagine, not least as she has lots of friends and many different friend groups. As such, as someone with a few really good friends, but fewer friendship groups, I sort of assume she is more important to me than I am to her.

I know the most common response to this sort of thing would be to tell her how I feel. But firstly, how do I know if my feelings are reliable? I think now, as I have before, that I may be in love with her, but could I just be misreading the love I have for her as a friend? Further, could I be sort of projecting what I want from an woman, or find attractive in a woman, as she is the only woman that I’m close with, really? Plus, my personal circumstances in terms of employment etc aren’t great at the moment, so are my feelings intensified and perhaps made into something they’re not as I have a lot more time to think, and nothing much else to particularly focus on at the moment?

The other thing is that I wouldn’t imagine for a second she’d be interested in me like that. It’s been so long, for one thing. Plus, the aforementioned circumstances (won’t go into it too much, but objective observers certainly wouldn’t describe me as a catch), and my physical appearance (others would say I’m not bad looking, I think, but I have some major, specific hang ups) would count against me, in my view. I do have very low self-esteem, it’s true, and I wonder if that adds to my feelings.

I also sort of worry that she sometimes feels sorry for me - about said circumstances (not that here’s are currently ideal, mind), plus I’ve spoken to her a little about struggles I have had this year and at other times. One example - at late notice I’ve had to be on my own for Christmas, and she left me a little gift in Christmas Eve. It’s typical of her, because she’s incredibly lovely, but it’s also sort of weird for me as my brain tells me it’s because she feels sorry for me, or perhaps pities me (I’ve also been beating myself up for not buying her anything, even though we don’t usually, and I’m fairly certain it was purely due to this years’s specific circumstances [though the worrying, over-thinking part of me fears that she might have anyway, as we’d seen each other more this year - and I hate being that guy who doesn’t reciprocate with gifts etc]).

Sorry this is so long, found it difficult to get my thoughts out more concisely. I know many people would say I should say something, but I fear losing her from my life as a friend - and also fear she’d then in hindsight find it weird to have been ‘acting’ as a friend when I had these other feelings, when honestly I look at her as a friend first, when I’m in her company.

Appreciate your time, and opinions, and reflections perhaps from those of you who may have been here before. Do I love her, or is there something else at play?

Well, try to spend more time with her by suggesting "non-dates" and see if she is receptive, or makes up excuses not to go. eg walking somewhere nice (socially distanced). Do you have any shared interests, such as owning dogs, or cycling?

When we were able to we were going to the cinema regularly until they closed again. She’s been a bit busier recently so we’ve had to shelve tentative plans for a distanced walk. Wary of asking too many times, especially as, as I say, I suspect she’s more important to me than I am to her (doubt she knows this). I’m also bad at dwelling on ‘rejection’, even if that’s not what it really is at all. The negative side of me thinks that she was only more receptive to doing things together as I was ‘available’, unlike most others working from home etc - we’d always meet on weekdays, not weekends.

Also, having discussed certain personal struggles before, I worry that she might think that meeting up would just revert to that type of convo every time.

The other thing is just that the situation makes me sad however I slice it. If I ever did say anything, I can’t imagine she would be interested, which makes me sad. Simply not seeing her as a friend for a while, like now, makes me sad.

I know a lot of this is exacerbated by the general situation - both mine and life generally. Been feeling very lonely, too, and finding the lack of social contact much more difficult than the first lockdown.

I’d love to talk to a friend about it, but the main contenders know her very well, too, and I don’t want to make things weird for anybody.

If she's a nice person then I can't see that it would ruin your friendship with her to mention that' you would be interested in something more, if she also happened to feel likewise. But I think it's something to phrase very carefully to keep the pressure very low and reassure her that you completely appreciate if she doesn't feel the same and you value her friendship irrespective.

You have to be mentally prepared for rejection however, and that's likely to be the bigger issue. The friendship may be harder for you to maintain with unrequited feelings (but mind you, as far as you know you've been living like this for many years, so maybe you will manage fine!)

It does sound like you love her to me. What's your relationship history like? Has she been on your mind whilst being in other relationships? Is not knowing how she feels preventing you from opening up to relationships with others?

You saw each other as in a relationship or a friendship?

Friendship. I’d be very surprised if she had ever looked at me in that sort of way to be honest.

I’ve had a couple of long-ish term relationships, but nothing proper for a long while now. I’m not sure she’s actually had what you’d consider a proper relationship since she was probably a teenager, actually.

I do sometimes wonder whether I’m not really ever considering other options, because ultimately they just aren’t her.

OP, think about reading a short story by Henry James called "The Beast in the Jungle" . You might find it inspirational, if not, its a good read.

In practical terms, dropping hints and getting mutual friends to sound out the water are the best, and least offensive, ways of progressing.

I take is she is definatley single. Is there an age gap between the two of you? Its unusual for a woman to be single since her teenager years. I would drop into your conversation something like how hard it must be for people to meet others due to the restrictions and then maybe gently ask if this is something thats on her mind, or if she ever sees herself getting married or having children one day.

It strikes me that you are melancholic and happy to wallow in it (hence you have perhaps found someone who is love and relationship avoidant to pine after) but you actually don't know this woman that well at all. Nor have you attempted to get to know her. She seems to occupy some vaulted status as your "ideal woman" but you say nothing about her personality or character which you admire. I do wonder that if she did show any interest in you, you might run a mile!

Have you ever had a general conversation about whether you would like to meet someone special/have a relationship/general life goals around this? Or has she ever given you any indication of having romantic feelings for you?
It might be helpful if you are able to give us an idea of the nature of the gift? That might hold a clue as to whether she feels you will remain platonic friends or more..

Ah, OP, your dilemma makes me think of the Anais Nin quote:

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.”

I think you need to be brave and take the risk so that you can move on with your life - one way or another. Who knows, there may be something possible with her! But until you broach this you will remain stuck and unable to form relationships with others which could bring great joy to you as well. Go out and live your life!

Jesus just ask her out and see how it goes.
Why do men write novels whenever they post on here.

It was some food and drink to enjoy over Christmas - nothing big, as such, but very thoughtful. We don’t normally exchange presents, which is why it surprised me. Given we had been seeing more of each other in the autumn, I guess there’s a chance she might have got me something whatever the circumstances, but I doubt it. I’m not great at receiving gifts or compliments, in that I never feel like I show just how thankful I am, if that makes sense.

Yeah, she’s single. We’re the same age, bar a few months. I’ve always been surprised at her lack of meaningful relationships (there may have been much smaller/quicker things that I don’t know about, but I’d be surprised) as she is very attractive, thoughtful, funny, kind and interesting. She’s kind of the loveliest person you could wish to meet, which is probably one of the reasons she has so many friends and friendships groups, including from pretty much all her previous jobs.

We have had some slightly more personal chats of late. I wouldn’t say she’s necessarily happy with her relationship situation, but I’m not sure she’s particularly unhappy either. I think she’s comfortable with where we’re at, but could be totally wrong - we all have issues and emotions that even our closest friends and families wouldn’t be aware of. Likewise, O don’t think she’s ever ruled out children, but she’s never really made much noise about necessarily wanting them, either, though of course that can change if/when you meet someone. She’s always friendly and bubbly to everyone, but you never know what might be lurking underneath I guess. I feel I could open up to her about my mental health etc - I would hope she would feel the same about me, but then again there are a number of other friends she would probably go to first for that sort of thing, and she would naturally probably prefer to talk about relationships or her feelings towards them with female friend.

One ‘flaw’ that she would admit to is that she isn’t always the best at replying the messages - she will, but sometimes it might be a little delayed. She wouldn’t realise, of course, but that can sometimes be tricky for me as I put so much onus on her responses. On the other hand, I try not to message too much as I don’t want to come across as too full on, or annoying, and she’s got plenty of her own stuff going on. Again it some of it probably comes down to me having fewer things on in my life to occupy me at the moment. As friends, I could happily see her every day as I always feel completely relaxed and comfortable around her. Having had two potential walks ‘cancelled’ before Christmas, I’d love to suggest one again, but don’t want to seem like I’m bugging her, and hate the ‘rejection’ feeling when she can’t make it due to work or whatever - I always take it personally, and read it as a sign that she isn’t that keen on meeting up one on one (the majority of the time we’ve spent together over the last 20 years would have been with other members of our friendship group - with the exception of our autumn cinema trips and stuff).

I would say I have definitely put her on a pedestal, but many of these feelings aren’t particularly new - they do feel heightened at the moment, I think exacerbated by the general life/world situation, feeling lonely/new year blues etc.

We’ve been friends for nearly 20 years, in a large group that has got smaller as people have moved away etc. There is probably plenty about her that I don’t know, and would like to know, but equally I do think I know her pretty well - I would hope so after all this time.

There is probably a subconscious element of me ‘enjoying’ the drama of it (a drama that only I’m aware of), and of wallowing in it, I’m sure, but it is painful, not least as I don’t think she’d ever be interested. She and others might find it a bit weird, too - people often go from friends to lovers, of course, but usually quicker than 20 years!

I definitely can’t bare to lose her as a friend. If I were offered her lifelong friendship now, with the romantic feelings taken away, I’d probably bite your hand off, but I don’t know how I’d get to that point currently (the other point is that if she were to meet someone anytime soon, that would really break me).

The thing is, if either of you meets someone else, you will likely lose that friendship anyway. Since new partners aren't generally very entertaining of someone being friends with a member of the opposite sex or spending a lot of time with them.

I don't think the 20 years knowing each other thing is a problem at all.

I think, for your own sanity, you have to make some progress on the romantic front, even if it is just sounding out the waters a bit more. Its actually quite a good time to sound things out, as theres no pressure to actually meet up in person and you can blame lockdown for acting out of character due to excess loneliness!

I do sometimes wonder whether I’m not really ever considering other options, because ultimately they just aren’t her.

This says it all for me. You love her. Also you pine for her when you're apart. You feel her lack of presence in a physical sense - it actually pains you to be away from her.

That's called love dude. It's not a fleeting emotion and it won't just go away. You need to listen to it, acknowledge where you're at and tell her how you feel.

Ok, from what you have written I can tell you definitely like her, and certainly for you these feelings are more than just friendship. Is it love, or infactuation? Who knows, and as for her well obviously I can’t speak for her either.

What can tell you is this, you seem very invested in her, you also seem very hung up on your own insecurities and come across as needy, which I suspect you know as you are careful as not to message her too much, and it seems you try to hide this part of yourself from her or at least keep it ok check around her. However, she has known you for 20 years so I’m sure she has an inkling regarding this. In her shoes, even if my feeling towards you were reciprocated I would be wary of going any further than friendship. I’ll explain why....with someone as insecure and needy as you are coming off here can be very suffocating, not only that but see how you are trying to keep yourself in check right now as you don’t want to scare her off, well usually this ability or desire to do this goes completely out the window once the relationship progresses beyond a certain point. Add this too the fact that as far as you are aware she hasn’t had any long lasting or long term relationships, the prospect of a relationship with you might seem even more frightening. That’s not to say that she doesn’t like you, or enjoy spending time with you, in fact I’m sure she does otherwise she wouldn’t be making plans with you. What I would say is that if her feelings are reciprocated in any way, I would bet that this is the thing that is holding her back.

Perhaps I’m completely wrong, but it’s something to consider.

Yeah it sounds like you're in love with her.

If she's a bit crap at replying to messages (I am- it's because I need to wait for a calm moment to properly think about what to say, and sometimes the calm moments are long in coming) then work out a time/date you're reasonably sure she'll be free and send

"Hey- hope you had a lovely Christmas. I'm going for a walk in the Big Woods next Saturday at 11am,if you're free and fancied joining me? I miss you. I was going to bring a flask of hot chocolate and some sandwiches and have a winter picnic."

Idk you can bloke that up with a few grunts or something if it's not your usual style. Thank her for the gift if you haven't already. And tell her flat out that you miss her. I've been married seven years and still get a flutter if my DH texts me when he's at work and tells me he misses me, apropos of nothing. I also get a platonic flutter if one of my friends says it. Don't know why, but it's nice to know that people you love and respect miss the place you usually inhabit, when you're not there.

Could be that she's madly in love with you, and hasn't found anyone to match up, could be that she's awkward and shy about romantic relationships, could be that she prefers to stay single, who knows. But you need to find out.

I was very good friends with my DH before we got together. At one point it was obvious there was something more on both sides, in fact DH was doing a great impression of a love struck Bassett hound for months, yet still I had to practically club the poor man over the head and drag him back to my cave in order for him to get the message, he was (and still is) gentlemanly to the point of frustration. I am quite horribly blunt and can't be bothered fannying round, and would rather get to the point and have everything out in the open, but I know plenty of women who would just about rather die than make it obvious they were interested in that sort of "friends but wanting more" situation- basically, one of you is going to have to blink first.

Appreciate all your thoughtful comments, and for taking the time to read my long, rambling posts - there is something quite cathartic about writing this stuff down. A lot of perceptive points and good pieces of advice, than you.

I definitely imagine I am quite insecure, but as I say I think a lot of that is to do with other factors, too - which is why I sometimes wonder whether these other factors are heightening my feelings into something they might not be. I wouldn't say I'm needy as such, though perhaps others would disagree, and I appreciate some of my posts may come off that way.

Some of it simply comes down to the fact that I simply don't know if she, or others, would consider me attractive, anyway. If she were a stranger and see me, I'm not sure she'd fancy me. I do have a very low opinion of my own looks, it must be said (particular hang up over my teeth, to give one example).

I'm definitely a chronic over-thinker, too, which affects things, too - she is probably relatively blunt and straightforward when it comes to sending messages, whereas I think about them for a long time afterwards.

In these oddly heightened and straightened times, it's more difficult to talk to friends, too, as meet ups are obviously rare, and I don't want friends to think it'll be almost an unofficial counselling session overtime they see me.

First thing would obviously be the simply try and arrange a meeting, but even then I'm reticent as, as I say, if she is unavailable, I take that personally and get really down about it.

Thanks again everyone.

I think it's important to remember that if you did test the waters with her, and she didn't see you as anything more than a friend - that doesn't actually mean there's anything wrong with you personally, it just means you don't meet her list of preferences in a romantic partner, and that's absolutely ok, if she is looking for (for example) a guy who is bookish, slim, and likes quiet nights in, and you are (for example) built like a shit house, into classic war films, and a mad party animal, neither of you are wrong, you know? Definitely try and squish the over thinking.

As for the looks, honestly the more you worry about it the bigger an issue it becomes. My husband is hugely insecure about his teeth too actually - got them knocked out when he was 14,then the local dentist did a botch job. So he actually has a plate and falsies and all sorts of ongoing dental trouble. Anyway, we'd been together nearly a year before I even noticed. He thought I knew from day one and just politely hadn't said. Nope. I hadn't a clue. So when I found out, I made him pop them in and out a few times, because why the heck wouldn't you, but honestly it didn't bother me one bit and didn't make a difference to how attractive I found him. I think that's the benefit of knowing someone and liking them as a friend before anything else happens, things like that just aren't important. By this stage anyway, she either finds you attractive or she doesn't, again that's not actually a reflection on either of you, nor does it mean you're unattractive- just not her type

Anyway, regardless of what happens with your friend, teeth are one of those things that are fixable - a friend of mine has just got adult braces on finance, the month they come off is the month she finishes paying for them, and she is working freelance atm so not a lot of money coming in, but said it was very affordable. So even if nothing happens with this girl, maybe see it as an opportunity to indulge in some general self care and self improvement. You're mid thirties, I've always thought that's a good age for most man - still young enough to do anything you want, but with a bit of maturity and experience behind you too. Just work on the over thinking and insecurity and try to relax a bit.

Excellent advice!

I like, too, the idea of suggesting a walk and then telling her I miss you, which I do. But phrases like that are where I have a problem with worrying that I'd put her off - generally speaking, I probably speak and message more emotively like that, whereas she is a bit more matter of fact about things (I think she's like that generally, not just with me).

@JH20

Excellent advice!

I like, too, the idea of suggesting a walk and then telling her I miss you, which I do. But phrases like that are where I have a problem with worrying that I'd put her off - generally speaking, I probably speak and message more emotively like that, whereas she is a bit more matter of fact about things (I think she's like that generally, not just with me).

Thats good, maybe try and loosen up a bit and lose the tortuous long winded phraseology if you're texting her. I'm sure you keep your texts short and cheerful anyway.

More generally, I’m interested to hear stories of relationships that went from friendship to something more.

Has it happened to you? Did you make the move, or were you the movee? Interested to hear stories from both sides of the coin, successes or otherwise.

That's just sounding like fishing for inappropriate information now OP. You can Google and find stuff like this online easily enough.

I will tell you exactly what I told my son, who had the same situation, but they had been friends through the whole of school rather than 20 years.

Just say you'd like to take her out on a date, but that it's fine if that isn't something she is interested in, and it won't change your friendship. That way you will find out immediately, and if she's not interested, you can get your head around staying a friend.

Son did this, and she declined. But he said what a huge relief it was just to know one way or the other, and it actually stopped him from doing all the mooning about because it was an avenue closed off, as he put it (but he is a very practical soul). They are still friends.

OP have you considered therapy?

It's not just something for people who've had massive traumas but from your posts you clearly have a lot of insecurities and overthinking issues that it'd do you very well to unpack with a professional. Or even a friend, if you have one you can talk about these things with - but if you're writing essays on MN I'd guess not.

If you ask your friend out, which I think you should, you don't want to be foisting all of this on her - it comes across as very intense and it's not her job to fix you.

FWIW none of it is especially unusual. Insecurity about looks and career status is understandable - idealised notions of what being "a catch" is do a number on a lot of people - but at some point you're just going to have to take a deep breath and stop letting them hold you back.