Out of the FOG website

[beautifulclouds]

Hi all, I hope you can help. I had a real lightbulb moment when I first heard about the acronym FOG. Fear, obligation and guilt is basically what drives my whole life, and especially family relationships. Ever since I've been trying.to make sense of it but don't seem to manage. I've looked at the Out of the FOG site but am finding it so confusing. In the description of obligation it talks about how obligation is what responsible community oriented people feel, it doesn't as a symptom of something being wrong in a relationship? It has this section about 'everyones memory is biased' and also another saying the FOG means you can't think rationally and you're not seeing everything that's there, and so you should try and bring rational thought into your thoughts rather than being driven by your gut feelings only. I feel like all of this is making me doubt myself even more. I'm not getting a clear picture of what my FOG might be a symptom of or what I should do in response. Thanks to anyone who might have any insight, or who felt the same?

And the concept of 'getting fleas' as well. Now that terrifies me!

Can you give an example viz a viz your situation?

What are your family relationships like?.

When a ruthless person takes advantage of our instinctive sense of obligation, they can manipulate our gut reactions to do things which do not always help us thrive and prosper. Do you feel like you have to see these toxic family members or suffer the consequences?. That is feeling obligated.

In her book Toxic Parents Susan Forward writes:-

"that we all have beliefs about how much we owe to others, centered around “ideals such as duty, obedience, loyalty, altruism and self-sacrifice”. These beliefs are necessary to form a moral foundation, but they can easily become unbalanced if we are not able to set and maintain healthy boundaries. Emotional blackmailers will exploit their target’s sense of obligation by overemphasizing how much we owe them, how much they have given up and how much they have done for them. They create an argument that it is our responsibility to meet their requests. Forward provides the following examples:

· “A good daughter would spend time with her mother.”

· “I work my ass off for this family, the least you could do is be there when I get home.”

· “Honor (and obey!) your father.”

This can be particularly difficult to recognize when in fact the blackmailer has done something for their target in their past, as they will often refer back to this kindness many times and use it as an example of why they are owed."

Have a read of and post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages.

Thank you for replying. This one resonates: 'A good daughter would spend time with her mother.' Or things like this from the FOG website: 'A mother tells her adult children "You can't possibly care about me if you won't come to Christmas Dinner".
Basically I would like to be NC or very LC with my parents but feel a huge amount of F O and G and don't know how to deal with it. I kind of thought feeling a lot of FOG is basically what justifies going NC as it suggests there is emotional abuse/blackmail?

But then it also gives this example 'A teenager tells his parents "I hate you - you've ruined my life!" when they refuse to grant a request' which to me sounds quite normal for teenagers to say at one point or other so it sounds as if FOG isn't 'that bad' after all?

I'm just very confused. Will look at the Stately Homes thread but I always feel others have it so much worse and how can I know in my case whether I'm not the one at fault, is the guilt actually warranted and I should be a better daughter.

I would hazard a guess re you and your parents that you are not at fault, the guilt is not warranted (and was installed in there by your parents) and you're likely good enough as a daughter. THEY think you're not good enough. Its not you, its them.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat, I really appreciate your replies. How can I be sure though? I thought the FOG website would explain why I feel this way so I could make sense of it. But it's also reinforced my doubt, what if I can't trust my gut feeling (ie, fear) or these feelings alone don't mean there is something wrong. I don't know how to ever find answers that would allow me to proceed with confidence rather than self doubt.

Beautifulclouds, have you been doing additional research? On codependency, overbearing parenting, attachment style, (there's so much out there.?) I've recently gone NC and after a lifetime of studying all the research, I'm still confused about how 'right' it seems, whether I'm essentially selfish, am I going to end up alone as I now have no family contact, etc.

It seems to me that even with overwhelming evidence of cruelty, or even just not great parenting that messes up levels of confidence. We children would still doubt ourselves.
Because the desire to protect our parent/s is inbuilt.
We're very strongly imprinted with it.
I meet neglected children every day via work, kids in care who have been treated awfully, who still identify with the parent to a heartbreaking degree.

All I know is, it's okay to put yourself first. But I'm nearing retirement & this perspective is new to me.
But please go into more detail?
Im happy to talk details.

Thank you @lastnightthemooncame for sharing your thoughts and experience. I have read a lot about narcissistic parents, codependency, attachment and so on. So much of it seems spot on but then say 'D'M doesn't match every single descriptor of narcissism and I end up doubting myself again. Nothing ever seems fully conclusive. What if I want to read something a certain way, when others would see the same person differently? I feel I dont ever have a clear enough view on everything to know I'm justified in feeling as I do.

Thank you so much for your encouragement and perspective. Could I ask how you navigate the confusion you say is still there in your case?

She does not have to match every description of narcissism. I would not be doubting myself as much here, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

Have you also considered seeing a BACP registered therapist about your family of origin?.

Ah I would love to but it's so expensive! Short of counselling is there anything else I can do to make some progress with making sense of it all? Any other resources you'd recommend?

What if I want to read something a certain way, when others would see the same person differently? I feel I dont ever have a clear enough view on everything to know I'm justified in feeling as I do.

How you read it, see it, feel it, sense it, interpret it, perceive it is how it has uniquely impacted you. Other people’s opinions are not relevant to your truth.

Perhaps you were not allowed to express your true gut feelings but had to repress them, swallow them unprocessed and / or only the feelings / opinions of others got to dominate your emotional experience?

Perhaps you are mostly left “unsettled” or “confused” by your feelings - perhaps you were not supported and encouraged to find the words to identify and then name and articulate your feelings.

So tuning into your own personal feelings is difficult if they were repressed, not safe to notice or attend to or were stifled by the bigger more dominant moods of others.

If you were brought up this way then your current ability to listen to, acknowledge, identify, express, process and validate your core gut feelings is blunted. All you have is “confusion” “unsettled” - that’s as sharp as the signal is now.

Once you start listening and observing closer and cutting out the irrelevant and distracting white noise of others feelings (which redirects you to feel FOG) you will know that confusion and unsettled is enough to stop and know it’s negative.

Out of the Fog is a brilliant website, thank you for the reminder OP. The stories on the forum, the insight and intelligence I find so helpful to read. It’s strange how there are so many different family stories, yet they have so much in common. I am going to look at again to try and find more clarity and strength for myself. When I have some more energy I think. Exhausted by my mothers latest madness, and how to deal with it. Be free of it might be the best - way to go !

The compression around it all and how I can get myself released is what I am trying to navigate now.

Brilliant posts with great insights and info :)

My rejection or whatever it can be called, seemed to come out of the blue- but probably wasn't.
It was based around trying hard to please parent/try alleviate their difficulties etc (quite profoundly disabled parent, in daily pain etc) but never feeling like I could solve things.

I didn't have proper boundaries.

I was trying too hard, for a difficult person.

And I had shaky anxiety, & nerve pain around contact.

& I'd seen behaviour in my parent who can have a tendency to treat people who are very close badly. Snippy, often critical of others including e.g. family members partners.

That's my perspective.
Theirs is very different! As I tried to discuss it but it didn't work (unsurprisingly!)

I self referred to the NHS counselling services just 3 weeks ago.
(Google Search local authority and charity counselling services).

I can't believe I got telephone assessment a week or so after referring myself & got a preliminary 'diagnosis' (unofficial) of cptsd.
(This relates to lots of traumatic life events).
Which means I am allowed to access a trauma specialist counsellor.

I wanted to avoid IAPT counselling as they really only tend to deal with minor mental health issues.

I had no idea this was available- GPs have not mentioned this - ever.

I was about to call NAPAC or other agencies to see if specialist counselling was available.
Beautifulclouds, have you telephoned any charities?

Thank you so much @Sssloou for your very helpful post. 'not safe to notice or attend to my feelings or they were stifled by the bigger more dominant moods of others' describes my childhood to a T - maybe that's at the bottom of it then. I like the idea of maybe just accepting that this is as sharp as the signal is for now.

Good luck on your journey @lastnightthemooncame

I like the idea of maybe just accepting that this is as sharp as the signal is for now.

That dull blunt signal is all you can tap into right now because of a lifetime of being stifled. Know that “confused / unsettled” is a v negative signal but is the best warning your body can tell you right now. In time when you focus on yourself your alarm system will be louder and clearer.

Trust your gut. Listen closely. You may not have words but sensations are enough.

I've just done a search for FOG and mother and saw this thread. There's some great advice, I'm going to look into counselling. I've just had WW3 with my mother, obviously my father backed her up... I gave them something useful but there's an issue with it and now I feel massively guilty for causing a problem... They didn't come on CD as my dad has to shield , spoke with them on the phone and FaceTimed with kids later, my mother said she bet I was having a lovely Christmas and wouldn't want to see them again* next time, all in a mock crying voice. They'd made the decision not to come. Sorry to hijack your thread beautifulclouds*!