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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I the arsehole? Or do I just not know what's normal for a relationship?

25 replies

sharpobjects · 03/12/2020 14:59

I've been thinking about that old saying "if everyone around you is an arsehole, maybe you're the arsehole". I worry that I portray my ex-boyfriends in a negative light because I'm thinking in too much of a black and white way, or I'm actually abusive by thinking they were treating me badly, or I'm overly dramatic.

Caveat: I have a mental health diagnosis, so I can be awful to live with when I'm unwell, but I have a professional career (like a lawyer) and great relationships with my family, plus some great friends - some of which I've known since I was at primary school - so I don't think I struggle to get along with others in general.

I was reading a thread yesterday about someone's DP going out all night and his phone being dead, and OP being so worried that he hadn't come home. I was really surprised by peoples' reactions to this. My ex (who I dated when I was 19-22 years old) used to go out all night, get drunk/stoned and not arrive back at our house until late the next day. His phone was off, or he just didn't want to text me. He and his friends called me controlling for getting upset about these incidents. He was out all night with his friends most nights, and a few times I got upset because I'd hoped we could spend the evening together, but he would just say "well I've already organised it, why are you getting upset now?! and usually throw his phone at the floor in frustration so it smashed, or went out and slammed the front door.

He always made out that I was needy and controlling. I felt guilty for getting upset, but I was clinically depressed at the time and couldn't control how I felt. He admitted he was addicted to weed, and I tried to support him to quit. One night when we'd been dating for 6 months and he had quit weed for 2 weeks, he suddenly dropped me at my parents' house, promised to pick me up the next day, then switched his phone off. He didn't reply to my (increasingly frantic) messages for over a week, and if I rang his phone his stoned friends answered and called me a 'psycho bitch' or 'nutjob'. I became very unwell and stopped eating. Eventually, he got in touch, drove me out to a field in the middle of nowhere, had sex with me and said "I will never love you as much as I love weed, so if you want to stay with me you need to let me smoke as much as I want". He had been the one crying on my shoulder about needing to quit, about not being able to dream because his head was full of the drug all the time, but he made out that I had engineered it all. I was 19 with very low self-esteem, and had dropped out of uni to be with him, so I stayed with him and agreed to his terms, which also included going to a BDSM dungeon with him. I regret this.

We later went to the same uni and lived together in a student house. He got in a mood with me during a music festival because he had asked around for weed and nobody had any, so he sloped off on his own, leaving me with his friends. He later returned to camp to find that I'd had fun without him, became resentful and shoved me, then disappeared again. I was terrified and sure he would get with another girl to punish me. He returned late morning, and I will never forget the look on his face when he unzipped the tent - like he hated me. I tried to leave but he put on music about suicide and I agreed to give him another chance, but said he would never touch me like that again.

Eventually he cheated on me (something he had done a lot before) and I found the evidence on his PC. I told him to get out, but he refused to leave the house, and posted on Facebook about hanging himself, so I had to keep checking he was alive. I tried to get some friends to check on him, but they called me an attention seeking bitch and said I was making things up to make my ex look bad.

I started messaging someone I met at a festival because I was so stressed and just wanted comfort of some kind. I didn't realise my ex had installed a 'keylogger' on my laptop and was secretly watching everything I typed. He came up to my room and confronted me, called me a slut for talking to another guy, made out that the man had told him himself. He only confessed as to the keylogger when he was stoned later on, and told me it as if he was proud of duping me like that.

When he eventually left, he made abusive fake profile pictures of me and 'added' me so I would see the horrible things he had written. Stuff like "I'm a crazy cock-eyed bitch who sees demons" - a reference to a time I was hospitalised with depression and psychosis. He always denied it was him, but I knew it was. The last time this happened was, thankfully, four years ago, but he added all the new friends I had made at university in an attempt to shame me in front of them.

I suppose staying out all night is small fry really. I guess the whole relationship left me feeling clingy, needy, overly emotional, crazy, nuts. I've dated other men who have stayed out all night on coke/alcohol binges and been non-apologetic for it. But I thought I wasn't allowed to complain because it's a needy thing to do.

An ex has been contacting me and he's very engaged in our chats if he's sexting me or asking me for sexual photos, but the second I talk about other aspects of my life, he replies once an hour, then stops completely, like I bore him entirely. But I end up feeling that I'm being too needy, wanting too much from him, that I've got an anxious attachment style.

I once spoke to the Samaritans about my ex and the lady on the phone line asked what my ideal relationship would be like. I would like an honest man who doesn't use internet porn, wants to go on walks with me, doesn't mind if I stop to take lots of nature photos, is even-tempered, doesn't cheat, wants to talk about my interests and share his own, cleans up after himself, doesn't want to have degrading sex with me, and maybe even occasionally buys me flowers, but ideally remembers my birthday and even gets a card for me.

Is that a lot to ask? Am I developing this fantasy man in my head that no man can live up to? I see myself reflected in my ex's eyes all the time, the way he looked at me, the way I was never enough for him, the way he hated me. I find it hard to believe anyone could look at me with romantic love, without a nasty lustful streak in it.

Sorry if that was all rambly.

OP posts:
Thingsdogetbetter · 03/12/2020 15:27

Your 'fantasy' man is actually a nice, normal man who loves and respects his partner. Your exs, others other hand, are abnormal abusive wankers.

You are viewing yourself and relationships through a lens of abuse. The freedom programme or counselling might really help to reset your lens.

Get help to learn to value yourself, to set boundaries, recognize red flags and how not to give chance after chance to wankers. Filtering out wankers quickly is a skill that can be learnt. Once you side step the wankers, you'll learn how to pick only those who are worthy of the fabulous person you really are.

Thingsdogetbetter · 03/12/2020 15:28

And block the sexting ex - he's not the answer!

Bluntness100 · 03/12/2020 15:33

Op how old are you now? How long ago did this relationship end?

sharpobjects · 03/12/2020 15:36

The first relationship ended in 2013 - I was 23. I'm now 31 but have been unable to find a decent relationship ever since.

I spent a while living with a man who I think MN would call a "cock lodger"; he seems to sponge off gullible women while playing video games, doing cocaine and spending all his money in the pub.

I also dated a man who had a long distance girlfriend and made me the OW against my will - I ended things and told her. Then there was another man who wasn't over his ex; I got upset when he started sleeping with another girl at the same time, but he told me that we were 'just friends', so I had no right to feel hurt. Then there was the friend I got close to, but he moved away, so it never had a chance. Then the Tinder date who convinced me to do some 'kinky' things in the bedroom and ghosted me.

I'm starting to think this is all my fault, to be honest.

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 03/12/2020 15:36

You’re definitely not asking too much of a partner. Your fantasy ideal man is actually reasonable and realistic. Your ex though is a nasty piece of work and you need to stay well clear of him.
A partner going out all night on their own isn’t a big deal if you know about it in advance, it doesn’t happen often and they are loving and trustworthy. But all that other stuff- tricking you, cheating on you, ignoring you, abusing you, publically humiliating you that’s stuff an enemy does not a partner or friend.

sharpobjects · 03/12/2020 15:39

@Thingsdogetbetter

Your 'fantasy' man is actually a nice, normal man who loves and respects his partner. Your exs, others other hand, are abnormal abusive wankers.

You are viewing yourself and relationships through a lens of abuse. The freedom programme or counselling might really help to reset your lens.

Get help to learn to value yourself, to set boundaries, recognize red flags and how not to give chance after chance to wankers. Filtering out wankers quickly is a skill that can be learnt. Once you side step the wankers, you'll learn how to pick only those who are worthy of the fabulous person you really are.

I've had counselling for over a year, and it did help a bit, but I still have vivid nightmares where I'm back in the house I shared with my ex and some scary animal or unseen force is trying to kill me, or tear the house down, or break all the locks so I can't feel safe.

I did an online freedom programme which I felt helped a bit.

It's helpful to know that 'nice normal men' exist. I'm a very flawed person but I would never cheat and I like to think I'm a caring friend, and girlfriend. But my ex would not say that about me, and there is a chance I'm this narcissistic abusive person that's manipulating everyone into thinking he was the 'baddie'.

OP posts:
sharpobjects · 03/12/2020 15:43

@PlanDeRaccordement

You’re definitely not asking too much of a partner. Your fantasy ideal man is actually reasonable and realistic. Your ex though is a nasty piece of work and you need to stay well clear of him. A partner going out all night on their own isn’t a big deal if you know about it in advance, it doesn’t happen often and they are loving and trustworthy. But all that other stuff- tricking you, cheating on you, ignoring you, abusing you, publically humiliating you that’s stuff an enemy does not a partner or friend.
Thank you, that's good to know. Writing this thread has brought up a lot about that ex-boyfriend. He liked going to gigs but we always, always left late, and when the train was delayed he would completely lose it and I'd have to calm him down because people would stare. He would scream "FUCK IT!" and a tirade of abuse that always drew attention.

He one stumbled down the steps in a tube station, which made him drop his can of Pepsi, and I held my breath as it tumbled down the steps because I knew he would get angry. I was right, and he did, and I let myself get dragged along while doing that pathetic "please don't... please stop" thing like a girlfriend trying to coax her partner away from punching someone because "it's not worth it".

I always felt I had to manage him. He also used to joke that if I got pregnant he'd push me down the stairs. Fine, he had a dark sense of humour, but saying it loudly on public transport made people ask if I was OK.

Despite it all, he was very loving and affectionate the rest of the time. It was confusing. I was young. I felt like I was trying to create this safe, comfortable home but Hurricane Adam (not his name) was constantly trying to tear it apart.

OP posts:
wimhoffbreather · 03/12/2020 15:47

Nice normal men do exist OP. But you have to put up good boundaries so you don’t get entangled with the bad ones. I doubt you’re the abusive person in relationships. My ex would probably say that about me, that I’m crazy and I was abusive to him. But I wasn’t the one staying out all night and cheating, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

AttilaTheMeerkat · 03/12/2020 15:48

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?.

Who cares at all what your ex thinks of you; he is the abusive one here who targeted you to use for his own ends.

It would be beneficial for you to restart counselling here or seeing a therapist to properly unpick this as well as unlearning all the damaging stuff you have learnt along the way. You have basically gone from abusive relationship to abusive relationship. Men like this can and do sniff out otherwise vulnerable women at 1000 paces, you've been deliberately targeted by them.

None of this is your fault at all, none of it. This is all on the people who actively chose to abuse you.

wimhoffbreather · 03/12/2020 15:48

Just saw your newest post OP, have you ever had counselling? It could help you work through all this stuff with your ex - I found it immensely helpful for me

PlanDeRaccordement · 03/12/2020 15:58

I would agree OP that some further counselling would help you. None of the past abuse is your fault at all. In fact, I admire you in that despite such bad luck you still have such hope for your future and are still a caring person.

sharpobjects · 03/12/2020 16:11

Thanks everyone for your kind and supportive comments. I guess due to lockdown I've had too much time in my own head, and the 'cocklodger' resurfacing hasn't helped matters much. This is my recent ex, not the one I have written about extensively on here.

Cocklodger asked me to lend him £75 so he could come and visit me on the train after lockdown, then claimed a phone bill came out of his account that night worth £60, so he couldn't buy a ticket, nor could he pay me back. I asked for the £15 difference to be repaid, and he kept promising but not delivering. I asked every day, and every day he 'forgot'. He has now said he will pay me the full £75 back when he gets his Universal Credit on the 10th.

I know, I'm a mug. He always has a sob story - this time it was about having some surgery, being in ITU with COVID and losing his job, having to move in with his parents again - and I fell for it. I can't tell my friends I lent him money because they will think this is pathetic.

He also claimed he couldn't text me all weekend because his 'credit ran out'. I said "I thought you had a £60 phone bill come out of your account - are you on Pay As You Go then?" He replied that he had cancelled the contract due to not being able to pay, but I know you can't just cancel a mobile phone contract (I've tried in the past). I feel I caught him in a lie, but I'm not sure what the purpose of the lie is.

OP posts:
QualityFeet · 03/12/2020 16:18

OP you it know you can make and keep relationships as you have old friends. You also know your boundaries around men are utterly broken.

Your idea of a good relationship isn’t even within touching distance of what it should be. You still sound like you are expecting them to tolerate you following your own interests or wanting normal attention.
Invest in yourself and work on those boundaries. There is no reason why you can’t have great future relationships but those old ones need to stay finished.

sharpobjects · 03/12/2020 16:24

@QualityFeet

OP you it know you can make and keep relationships as you have old friends. You also know your boundaries around men are utterly broken.

Your idea of a good relationship isn’t even within touching distance of what it should be. You still sound like you are expecting them to tolerate you following your own interests or wanting normal attention.
Invest in yourself and work on those boundaries. There is no reason why you can’t have great future relationships but those old ones need to stay finished.

I agree with you there. I try to have boundaries and assert myself, but it usually leads to my ex-boyfriends getting sulky or angry and ignoring me, so I end up apologising "taking it back" and agreeing to return to the status quo because I hate the tension and confrontation.

I don't have these problems with friends, you're right - I guess that's strange. I have been friends with people who take the piss a bit, but I bin them off quite easily. I guess because I know I have decent ones. I've never had a decent partner, so I have nothing good to compare them to. Maybe that's it?

OP posts:
merryhouse · 03/12/2020 16:27

None of this is your fault.

You didn't make someone scream at a can of Pepsi. You didn't make someone smoke weed or snort cocaine. You didn't make someone cheat (on you or with you). All these things these men have done - they chose to do them.

But. You can stop it happening to you by walking away. (Yes, I know it's not as simple as I've made it sound.) In the same way that when you discovered you were the OW, you ended the relationship. You don't go out with someone who smokes weed. You don't return to someone who calls you a bitch, or a psycho, or overly needy or controlling. You don't consent to a form of sex you're not personally into.

It will be hard. You haven't learnt to distinguish between the decent men and the others: you have to painstakingly go through the checklist each time. (but if you automatically reject illegal-drug-takers you'll save yourself a lot of hassle)

Your reaction to the OW situation shows that you can do this when you know it needs to be done. Your problem is that you don't see these situations as ones you're allowed to choose not to be involved in. You refused to be OW because you knew it's not a good thing, but you haven't internalised the idea that your happiness is a good reason.

EllieQ · 03/12/2020 16:38

Why do you want to stay in touch with your exes when they have treated you so badly? They are your exes for a reason. They shouldn’t be in a position where they get angry with you for asserting yourself so you have to ‘take it back’

And why did you agree to cocklodger ex coming to visit you? He’s your ex, he treated you badly, you shouldn’t want anything to do with him, never mind sexting him, asking him to visit and paying his train fare!

GreenlandTheMovie · 03/12/2020 17:40

I think your boundaries are a little low due to your prolonged involvement with your stoner ex. You are possibly getting involved with men others would turn down or just have a ONS with. Its better to be single and available when the right one comes along than wasting your time with dross.

Surely you haven't sent any naked or compromising pictures, given you are a lawyer?

ThirdThoughts · 03/12/2020 18:54

I'd block Cocklodger and consider the £75 as a reminder that he was a user and has not changed.

I'm sorry you've had some bad relationships, you didn't deserve to be treated so abusively. No one does.

I am sure there is a partner out there for you who wouldn't just tolerate your nature photography but love it, and you. You aren't asking too much.

QualityFeet · 03/12/2020 19:18

Sounds like it might be. The thing is knowing what you should tolerate is the start but you have to believe you are worth it. The list of reasons that have seen me bin off partners would make your think me capricious but it actually is as easy as you get rid every time you are left needing to make an excuse for any behaviour to you or another person.

You sound like you need a lot of talking and should probably do the freedom program so you are aware of red flag behaviours.

It’s fine to hate tension - it’s not a feature of a good relationship:) Your partner should be your friend first.

BigMetalPebbles · 03/12/2020 20:49

Is that a lot to ask?
No, my chap ticks all these boxes, and I believe quite a few of my (male) long-term friends do too.
As PPs have said, a good first step would be applying rigorous quality control to your romantic interests. If they are not a decent honest kind upstanding person to all and sundry, don't even go to coffee with them.

And I know it's a cliché but that's because it's true - what on earth was your childhood like, that you thought this kind of awful, awful behaviour was tolerable? You poor thing.

Justtryingtobehelpful · 04/12/2020 03:00

Get educated, start reading. The Hennessey book would be a good start. You could explore which tactics were used against you. I second that a good counsellor would be very useful!

Lundy Bancroft's book 'Why Does He Do That? docdro.id/py03

www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling-ebook/dp/B000Q9J0RO?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Information on sick systems:
www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html

The shark explanation:
www.google.com/amp/s/www.oomm.live/the-shark-cage-metaphor-spotting-potential-abusers/amp/

Read up on the F.O.G
Fear, Obligation and Guilt
Out of the FOG is a good book

RantyAnty · 04/12/2020 03:18

No, none of this is your fault.

The time to set boundaries is before you're in a relationship.
Take some time to sit down when you can relax and have the time to do it and think about what your core values are and write them down.
Think about what your deal breakers are with people's behaviour and write that down too. There are lots of helpful ideas online if you google core values, boundaries, dealbreakers, etc.

When you have your final lists it means that these things are set in stone and if someone violates them, you leave.

They also help you out when deciding who to date.
If your dealbreaker is no drugs or unemployed, then you avoid all men like that, no exceptions.

Then on another sheet of paper, do a brief evaluation of your previous relationships. What about them made you fall for them. What things did you not like about them. How did you break up. Then take a look and see if there are any similarities between them.

Anyway, hope this helps you think about what you really want.

Suzi888 · 04/12/2020 06:10

@AttilaTheMeerkat

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?.

Who cares at all what your ex thinks of you; he is the abusive one here who targeted you to use for his own ends.

It would be beneficial for you to restart counselling here or seeing a therapist to properly unpick this as well as unlearning all the damaging stuff you have learnt along the way. You have basically gone from abusive relationship to abusive relationship. Men like this can and do sniff out otherwise vulnerable women at 1000 paces, you've been deliberately targeted by them.

None of this is your fault at all, none of it. This is all on the people who actively chose to abuse you.

^^ agree completely. You are obviously an intelligent person, please see your doctor and arrange some counselling.

None of this is your fault, all you want is a normal relationship.

Melba7 · 04/12/2020 16:24

Dear OP,

I am so sorry you went through all this. This man ( the ex you mentioned in your first post) was abusive and seriously emotionally maladjusted. This was not your fault. You were not responsible for any of his behaviour and you truly deserve better.

I think that abusive people can often attempt to place the blame for their actions and feelings onto the other person.

It also sounds like he and also his friends were gaslighting you (when someone tries to manipulate you into making you doubt your reality or sanity and your own perceptions) and also using emotional invalidation - by attempting to make out that you were 'needy' or 'over-emotional' in some way. But your emotions were a sign that his behaviour was very wrong and very unhealthy. But of course, he did not want you to recognise this. It is a way to try to deflect blame and responsibility for the behaviour that he owns and for him not to meet reasonable relationship expectations.

It is totally healthy to expect the person you are in a relationship with to take an interest in you and not to sound like you are boring him. This is not needy! It was normal and healthy for you to expect this.

It is so important to know that you are not and were not reflected in his eyes. He was not a reflection of you, but of his inner self. He could only ever reflect himself, his issues and his behaviour outwards.

Woman's Aid has some useful info on abuse.

Dr. Terry Lynch has some videos & a book about boundaries (Selfhood) which I have found very helpful.

www.crisistextline.org/topics/emotional-abuse/#signs-of-emotional-abuse-4 - the US version of this service has a section on emotional abuse

BucksFizzForBreakfast · 04/12/2020 16:33

Yes I agree with pp. Not your fault, but your boundaries are skewed. I would not date any drug takers - you'll often read/hear that "most people" take drugs: they don't. It's not something you have to put up with. I also do not stand for any kind of aggression, be it physical OR verbal. Again, often shouting matches and name calling are considered to be the norm but I've never been in a relationship where this has happened (I'm married and in my mid 30s). I will not tolerate disrespect, unkindness or any kind of behaviour where I am made to feel like shit. Raise your standards and be wary of any red flags. You deserve a happy and healthy relationship with someone who treats you properly. Don't settle for any more losers!

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