Careers and Compatability

[bjd123]

(New to Mumsnet but need help and my fiance is always on this forum, so thought I would post here, with her encouragement!)

Just graduated from university and recently engaged. I am 23. She is turning 25. Her parents split up when she was a child. She wants a family life which she didn’t really have as a child.
She is doing a PhD for another three/4 years but wants to be a stay-at-home mother, ideally. She sees this PhD as a means to securing part-time work towards that end. She also says she’s doing the PhD because it’s flexible. She can do it remotely and it means she can move with me wherever I end up.
I have just enrolled on a year-long MA in English, after missing out on an editorial job with a publishing company. Would consider teaching as a profession, but also have an abiding interest in the creative arts.

Before I went to uni, I was excited about the prospect of going to a Drama School. A friend of mine who went to Guildhall School of Music and Drama in London thought I would be an ideal candidate, but my Dad was reluctant and encouraged me to (at the very least) get a degree in something else first.
I’m not conventionally handsome and often wonder if vanity plays too large a part in my aspirations, but all through school and university I've been consistently complimented on my speaking voice - and always receive encouraging reviews in theatre productions.
My parents only appear to have a passing interest in my performances, and didn’t come once to see me perform at university. (It was very far away and money was an issue). My fiance has never seen me act, either, and so isn’t in a position to assess my abilities, or discourage/encourage me to pursue it further. (So I don't know if I'm simply living in an echo chamber of kind words from charitable friends).

I also love creating stories (writing short films, plays, and ideas for children’s books), and I really like illustrating characters. The trouble is, these things don’t lend themselves to full-time jobs (at least straight away) that could support a growing family. I need to weigh up options for next year and I can’t rely on writing a bestseller to solve all of my problems in the interim!

It has sort of been decided that I should be the breadwinner in our married life, to facilitate my fiance’s dream of staying at home to look after the children - but, with no money to my name currently, and Covid-19 destabilising the job market, I am anxious that I might find myself in a job that I dislike - having given up on all of my dreams - and unable to use the things that I am passionate about and feel gifted to do - because of the urgency of the biological clock (though we know, in theory, we have many years to get that done!).

I should say that I also want a family. And I love my fiance very much and think she would be an excellent mother. (I’ve been fortunate to see her looking after other people’s children on numerous occasions). However, I fear that, because I am slightly younger than her, and so behind her academically and professionally (due to the slight age difference at this formative stage in our lives), I might be inadvertently giving up on my own dreams to support her overarching ambition of having children.

I know marriage is about compromise - and perhaps I just need a few years to grow up a little bit? I am self-aware enough to admit that I might be being very naive about dreams of acting etc. and pursuing unstable career paths.
And perhaps it makes sense on all fronts to secure a solid job like teaching which could support us both for the years ahead.

Acting, or a job like it in the creative industry, is riddled with rejections and set-backs and only those with resilience make it. (Even more so in the current climate). I don’t know how much I want it - but I also don’t want to constantly be looking over the hill, as it were, and thinking about what could have been ... I also don’t want to think that my fiance and I are incompatible because of our different dreams. (She wants to be a mother, I want to be a father + use my gifts in a (mostly) fulfilling occupation).

Does anyone have any advice? Has lockdown made me lose all sense of proportion? I am inclining towards pursuing teaching and trying to put to bed these rather conceited ideas for acclaim (though I don’t think acclaim itself is all bad: like a carpenter who takes pride in people admiring his woodwork, I only want acclaim to affirm a job well done). I guess I want what everybody wants - to find out what I’m good at, and to pursue it. But I also want to be able to support a family, too. Perhaps somebody here has thought about similar things before?

Thank you for taking the time to read this rather long post!!

I don’t think your plans are unfeasible.

In general, how compatible are you in terms of financial attitudes?

If you’re both happy with living quite frugally at times I think that’s the main thing - you both are well-educated

and my experience is a lot of academic/arty types don’t value material “things” or keeping up appearances, which means that working and having a more freelance/flexible lifestyle might work for you?

(maybe if you’re in London or the south east think about eventually moving to a big northern city or a Scottish city that’s not Edinburgh - great creative scenes. Housing costs generally are what slay people financially).

I think you are too young for all of this. Get some life experiences, and real work experience in your chosen field(s) and re evaluate.

@Bunkbedpeople I think we're fairly compatible. Yes, I think we're both willing to live frugally (for a while, at least). We're certainly not that materialistic. She's used to a better quality of life, overall, I think, in terms of financial security. As long as we can provide for ourselves and put some savings aside for the future, that would be good.

Good point about the north! Lots of art going on up there, especially in Scotland.

@AnaViaSalamanca I think that's a fair comment - and something I've suspected myself. I think that's a big part of the issue - lack of life experience (not really knowing what a job would really be like!)

Yeh my friends who are north or Glasgow tend to be able to work creative careers (whilst freelancing/only working “proper” jobs part time), live reasonably centrally in up and coming hipster areas

just seems a lot easier if you can get an ok apartment for you and a baby for 80k rather than 150k!

Think laterally about ways you can work together to make and keep money over the next few years as well.

It doesn’t have to be you doing 9-6 in a full time job OR being a penniless actor.

A music graduate I used to date was very well off by 30 (compared to accountants and teachers and lawyers) because he got into buy-to-let property young.

Don’t give up on your dreams and aspirations before you at least give it a good go. Teaching is something you can get into further down the line if you decide that’s what you want to do- but it should be because that’s what you want to do. There is a very real possibility if you pursue teaching for a reliable salary and end up with children and being completely depended upon financially that you will always wonder what your life could have been like if you’d followed your dreams. I think it is quite a pressure to put on you for you to be the ‘breadwinner’ and you need to be careful that you don’t sacrifice what you want in order for your fiancé to fulfil her dreams as it may come to be something that you resent in the future.

You sound so creative and are just starting out. Now is the time to put all your energy into your dreams. Children can wait a few years. If you take a job you're not passionate about to fund your partner's dreams, resentment will grow. Many people dont get the option to work part-time, sadly.

You're so young, please pursue your dreams before allowing yourself to get saddled with too many responsibilities! You will regret it if you do!

I would suggest that you don't get married for a few years. It's too soon to make that kind of commitment. It sounds like your fiancee is very clear about what she wants from life, but you're still working that out for yourself. Don't allow yourself to be rushed, and don't let yourself be pressurised into a job that you don't want in order to d support someone else's dream.

You say that you want to be a dad, but you haven't said what you feel about becoming the main breadwinner. You say that it has been "sort of" decided, but I'm not sure what that means. How do you feel about taking on that responsibility? Do you actually want your fiancee to be a SAHP, and if so, for how long? It is a choice that you both have to make together, otherwise it will lead to resentment in the longer term.

Agree with everyone else, you’re so young and it sounds like your fiancée has mapped out your future for you already. At your age you should be having fun, trying new things and working out what your passion is, not resigning yourself to a life of resentment and thwarted hopes.

Your fiancée has planned her whole education and career around not wanting to actually do it! Don’t let her plan yours too.

Obviously at the moment the performing arts have taken a huge hit, so it may not be the best time to go into acting etc. The great thing about being a man is that you don’t have that biological clock ticking away in the background of everything you do, and while it’s good to be aware of its impact on your fiancée it seems like that’s gone too far here.

Is an MA in English going to actually further your career?

@Bunkbedpeople

Thanks for this! Totally agree about housing!
I will try and think laterally about ways we can make and keep money. Perhaps there are things I could be doing at the moment, from home.

'Buy-to-let property' is a good example of alternative sources of income.

@OPTIMUMMY

"Don’t give up on your dreams and aspirations before you at least give it a good go" - that seems solid advice. I must say, however, that teaching is something that appeals to me - and isn't second-best, in my opinion.

The possibility of resentment is important - and something we've both thought about a lot. If I am making the right choices for the right reasons, I can safeguard against that for the long-term.

@nicelyneurotic

Thank you. You are right about now being the time to pursue dreams. Children can wait a few years - and in fact, we've spoken about this and can both put that on hold for a good while yet.

Good note about this: 'Many people don't get the option to work part-time, sadly'. I'm very aware of this. My mother wanted to be a stay-at-home parent but had to work long-hours and night-shifts as a full-time midwife. You are right, of course.

@AlexaShutUp
'I would suggest that you don't get married for a few years.'
Yes, we won't be getting married for a few years anyway - not least due to Covid-19 regulations and the difficulty of planning anything right now. We're taking a break from talking about a wedding, at least, for a good while yet.

"You say that you want to be a dad, but you haven't said what you feel about becoming the main breadwinner. You say that it has been "sort of" decided, but I'm not sure what that means". Sorry - it was sloppy writing. I would take pride in taking on that role and responsibility, as long as I could do it and find a suitable occupation to support it.

"It is a choice that you both have to make together, otherwise it will lead to resentment in the longer term." Wise words. This is why we are discussing it now.

@MarkRuffaloCrumble

"your fiancée has mapped out your future for you already." I don't think that's entirely true. We are having an ongoing discussion about it. True, she has more of an idea about what she wants - and this is one of the reasons why we're putting wedding-talk on hold - so I can work out what it is I want to do.

"not resigning yourself to a life of resentment and thwarted hopes" - that's a strong way to put it. I certainly don't resent the possibilities of the future.

"Your fiancée has planned her whole education and career around not wanting to actually do it! Don’t let her plan yours too." Again, the difficulty perhaps of an online forum - but it's not like that. She is interested in academia and certainly wouldn't be pursuing a PhD if she didn't have ambitions in that sphere. She's not planning my future - but it's only right that we discuss our shared future, together.

"Obviously at the moment the performing arts have taken a huge hit, so it may not be the best time to go into acting etc." Absolutely right - this is a strong irony underpinning the whole of this conversation. In fact, it's actually a very significant thing to think about. The implication is, I might not, at this point, have the choice to pursue something in that sphere - and a more stable job might be the best choice for the time being (with a view to pursuing artistic pursuits extra to that, or in replacement of that when opportunities open up again).

"The great thing about being a man is that you don’t have that biological clock ticking away in the background of everything you do, and while it’s good to be aware of its impact on your fiancée it seems like that’s gone too far here." I wouldn't say it's "gone too far". The trouble is, I am thinking about the impact of that on my fiancee. It wouldn't be right if I wasn't. But thank you for your bold words. Really appreciate hearing new perspectives!

Stop living by what your parents think is right or what your fiance has decided you will do to fund her desire . I don't want to sound too critical of her because this is somewhat what women are socialised to expect, but ...If she wants to be a sahm then she doesn't need a PhD and should be working hard getting a mortgage and saving before ttc. It sounds to me like she is just putting off adulthood until someone else funds her preferred lifestyle. You are not career driven, not likely to be a high earner, so she is going to have to pull her weight in the earning stakes. Otherwise you need to be looking at a career that can earn you £70 k plus from the outset. Take a look at the earning multiple you would need for a mortgage.
My advice would be decide what you want as if just pleasing yourself - career? Kids? House? Then decide how you can realistically achieve your aims. Then think about your relationship. Will she support you to achieve your aims? Are there things you would compromise for her, and she for you? If not, what does this mean for your satisfaction in life. If you can't be selfish and live for yourself in your twenties, when are you going to?

I also think your fiancee is being a bit naive if she thinks doing a PhD will enable her to walk into a job in academia after years at home as a sahm. It doesn't really work like that.

I take your point about teaching not being second best for you, and it’s important that it’s not if you do go into it. However it does have the bonus that you can try other things out first and use that life experience in your teaching. Pursuing the creative stuff doesn’t shut off teaching as an option. However, it’s not so easy the other way round and you could end up feeling trapped if you are relied on for your salary. I’m a teacher and I love my job but the salary isn’t enough (in my opinion) to comfortably provide for a whole family and your partner be a sahm. Though I guess it depends on where you want to live and what kind of lifestyle you both want.

@ScrapThatThen

"If she wants to be a sahm then she doesn't need a PhD and should be working hard getting a mortgage and saving before ttc. It sounds to me like she is just putting off adulthood until someone else funds her preferred lifestyle." Her pursuit of the PhD was a joint-decision. She applied for an NHS Graduate job, just before the first lockdown, but decided to pull out. She's a hard-worker, and is always working on the side to bring in an income. The PhD suits us because she can complete it remotely, and that gives me flexibility too.

"You are not career driven, not likely to be a high earner, so she is going to have to pull her weight in the earning stakes." She does - and she will.

Excellent and useful questions at the end there, thank you.

"If you can't be selfish and live for yourself in your twenties, when are you going to?" Hmmmm. Perhaps never? I'm okay with that.

@AlexaShutUp

"I also think your fiancee is being a bit naive if she thinks doing a PhD will enable her to walk into a job in academia after years at home as a sahm. It doesn't really work like that."

We're both quite aware about how academia works. . It's highly competitive and scholars need to output a certain amount of research to justify their position, for sure. We know this. The thought was - she could find a position at a university for several years - and then, pending my own stability at this point, she might be able to step-back a bit and continue to do work part-time - and be a SAHM for a period in the interim, if finances allowed.

We know our plans might not work out as we hope - but that's what we're aiming towards. .

@OPTIMUMMY

"I take your point about teaching not being second best for you, and it’s important that it’s not if you do go into it. However it does have the bonus that you can try other things out first and use that life experience in your teaching." . That's true!

"I’m a teacher and I love my job but the salary isn’t enough (in my opinion) to comfortably provide for a whole family and your partner be a sahm." Yes - I can see that! I think we'll aim to find more lateral ways of earning money (on the side, too) as we go.

We've just finished the first book in a series of stories. Who knows, perhaps some income could come of those? There's no harm in trying! .

She is doing a PhD in order to get a part time job and then be a SAHM while you support her? Wow. If that's her ultimate goal she could ditch the PhD and earn some money to save up instead. I say this a someone with a PhD myself.

@DuesToTheDirt

She is doing a PhD in order to get a part time job and then be a SAHM while you support her? Wow. If that's her ultimate goal she could ditch the PhD and earn some money to save up instead. I say this a someone with a PhD myself.

OP has literally just said that his partner works on the side of her studies.

After DC, OP would be financially supporting his family whilst his partner takes primary childcare responsibility for THEIR children. That's a mutually beneficial arrangement that benefits both parties, if affordable. It's not simply a case of him "supporting her" - obviously.

mutually supportive *, sorry

Thank you @LoverOfBells. Couldn't agree more! It would certainly be a mutually beneficial arrangement, if affordable at the time. And that's it - they would be our children.