I think he's cheating

[liliesinthesummer]

I am a first time poster, in fact, I've signed up here after a long time lurking because I really could do with advice.
I've been married for 14 years, we have 2 kids, a stable financial life, lovely house, supportive extended families etc etc. It looks perfect from the outside and I thought it was as close to perfect as it could be from the inside but....
I think my DH is having an affair. I'm not normally a checker of his phone but recently he's been taking it everywhere, literally everywhere. He's been distracted and moody and not 'present' which is not like him at all. he has always been an equal partner with children, chores etc but lately he hasn't been 'with us'. I put it down to stress of some recent family events that have been a little tricky. He comes to bed later than me, checks his phone all the time and is drinking more than normal. Yesterday I picked up his phone to check something online as mine was charging and a message popped up from a woman whis name I recognise, it was a photo of her naked. I felt sick, shaky, full of rage. I scrolled up the messages and found literally loads, him, her, messages about what they would like to do to each other. Some of it seemed like innocent chat between friends and then all of a sudden, a sext out of nowhere. And it's been going on for a few years, I think. at least the messages suggest that. I don't think they've actually done anything, met up or it's become physical but I can see that there have been calls and video chats too.
What the actual do I do now? I have been walking around in a daze since seeing them and now I don't know what to do. He'll deny being unfaithful won't he? this is cheating, isn't it? I don't know why I'm asking because I know the grim reality. it's someone he used to know a long time ago, someone he once had feelings for (he's spoken about her to me, how she broke his heart) Is it possible to recover from this and mend it. I would have support irl but I'm not ready to talk about it with my family, I've not even spoken to him yet. I'm so ashamed I don't want my family to know.

It's not that I want to see them again. I really don't, once was bad enough and I can't stomach the thought of looking at the betrayal again. But people here seem to think that I should have screenshots of them.
He says that they have not met, other than once about a year ago when he was in their hometown and so was she by coincidence. I have no idea whether or not to believe this. I can't see how he would have had the opportunity to meet her at least in the last 7 months as we have been together all the time, working from home etc. She does not live close by so even on the occasions when he has been out for exercise, shopping etc I can't see how they could have met.
I am so angry though. It's so hard to love someone and hate them at the same time. I don't know what I want. Some days I want him to beg me to try again, other days I just want the old us back and then sometimes I want to kick his cheating arse out of the house. I used to have such a black and white view on infidelity and now the concept of what betrayal is has been upended for me. I know what he's done is cheating but in my head I can't quite understand that it is. he is so adamant that they are just good friends who look out for one another, that they both understand that it's nothing more than texting. He says he never intends to sleep with her in reality but he must have thought about it to have sent the texts. He says that she has been the driver behind it, that she made the first moves, that the texts come from her, but he responds? I can't get it out of my head that this woman from his past, who is beautiful and the exact opposite to me physically, has been in his head and for who knows how long? All of our relationship? Recently? I have no way of knowing and no idea what to believe anymore. I don't think he's actually told me the whole truth about their history either, she has always been part of conversations with old friends, talking about memories etc but she didn't seem to hold any importance for him then. Maybe he was just predtending then but when I think about it, he has spoken about her a lot more recently and always when talking about his younger years and how he had heard on his hometown local grapevine about her life now, her success and then her recent relationship breakdown. it all appeared to be normal to me, talking about an old friend and happy memories. I feel like such an idiot, sitting here in our house, working for our family, making plans.

I'm so sorry OP.

You need them if you intend to divorce for adultery. If you can divorce by unreasonable behaviour (including an inappropriate extra marital relationship via social media min) you don't really need them.

I think they will hurt you more than anything but sometimes that can help mobilise anger into action too. For others it leaves us immobilized and broken.

The really important thing here is you are not an idiot. He is an adept liar. This about him being able to compartmentalise to a pathological degree.

He seriously tried justifying years of betrayal, sexting, more than likely cam sex (at night when you were in bed or when you were out with your DC), almost definitely had sex when they 'bumped into each other' a year ago. Her relationship broke down, his didnt. Would make sense she travelled to him than the other way around so it wouldve been easy to 'hook up' when he was supposed to be out exercising. Did him checking out of your family life happen to coincide with the breakdown of her relationship?

Your marriage vows are for anything sexual to be between a man and his wife (unless otherwise agreed by both). The level of intimacy between them should be for couples in a relationship.

Not only has he cheated, but he has done it for years. And now he is minimising it and trying to make you think what he has done is normal (just good friends )

If you choose to stay with him, you will probably want to talk about it, ask things. Be prepared for him to get angry with you then eventually make it all out to be your fault.

He

Yes, this is cheating. He has definitely crossed the line here.

he is so adamant that they are just good friends who look out for each other, that they both understand that it’s nothing more than texting.

Nudes and Sexting = Nothing more than texting between friends who are looking out for each other???

Years ago he unilaterally and secretly changed the parameters of your marriage to include his emotional intimacy and text/video sex with OW. You’ve recently discovered his underhandedness.

His current manipulative agenda is to downplay his sexual incontinence to make the shit sandwich more palatable for you to swallow. He appears to have no intention of giving up OW.

This liar is going to lie. I agree with @Ispywithmycynicaleye that they likely had sexual contact last year and that OW could very well be traveling to meet him. Even if not, he has been hiding in plain sight by casually mentioning her in conversation while engaging in cybersex with her.

His recent mentionitis uptick, detachment from the family, and OW becoming single suggest that their connection has intensified.

No matter how much he attempts to normalize/protect his affair, you do not have to tolerate his blatant contempt and violation of your boundaries.

You don’t need ‘evidence’, as so many people on here seem to think you do.

If you divorce on grounds of adultery, and your husband won’t admit it, then you might need to prove it in court. However adultery for legal purposes means actual intercourse - sexting, kissing or an emotional affair does not count. So unless you have a photo of him actually fucking her, you’re relying on him admitting it in any case.

But that doesn’t matter because you can just use unreasonable behaviour, for which you can cite this inappropriate relationship with another woman.

The grounds for divorce and any ‘evidence’ don’t make any difference to any financial settlement you receive or any childcare arrangements.

I have no idea why mumsnetters are so obsessed with getting evidence. You don’t need it.

@Alongwayfromeverything

You don’t need ‘evidence’, as so many people on here seem to think you do.

If you divorce on grounds of adultery, and your husband won’t admit it, then you might need to prove it in court. However adultery for legal purposes means actual intercourse - sexting, kissing or an emotional affair does not count. So unless you have a photo of him actually fucking her, you’re relying on him admitting it in any case.

But that doesn’t matter because you can just use unreasonable behaviour, for which you can cite this inappropriate relationship with another woman.

The grounds for divorce and any ‘evidence’ don’t make any difference to any financial settlement you receive or any childcare arrangements.

I have no idea why mumsnetters are so obsessed with getting evidence. You don’t need it.

I think the desire for concrete evidence might be more to do with the act of leaving the marriage. Without concrete evidence the path is open for the husband to be absolved of all responsibility. For instance, he can tell people that it was his wife who left him. Any 'new' woman can then be introduced after the event. I have even heard of men treating their wives despicably in the hope that the wife will leave the marriage, thus making the path clear for him to see his affair partner openly.

But whether or not the OP has evidence, the husband would be free to tell people whatever he wanted.

Unless she was going to send screenshots to all their friends, relatives, people on the school run etc.

I think the only reason for having the screenshots would be in case he tries to gaslight her by denying it ever happened.

All classic behaviour of a cheater, even without the phone messages. Detachment from family life, obsessively taking phone everywhere, drinking, moodiness. He will absolutely minimise it, and will make you doubt yourself. And because you love him, it’s easy to accept his excuses and explanations. But don’t. Get prepared before you confront him. Make sure you have money in your own account, as he will start to transfer money and hide stuff as soon as he finds out you know. Don’t let him blame you for the situation, which often happens. He will try to tell you it’s your fault - the marriage wasn’t good and you neglect him blah, blah, that is him trying to shift the guilt and the start of spinning a tale to feed to family and friends to make him less of a bad guy. Be prepared for him acting in a way which you would never imagine him being capable of. Stay strong OP - I know it’s hard as I’ve been there, but you have to focus on yourself and DCs now before he blind sides you.

You know.
You saw the proof. It does not matter if he deletes it, denies it, lies about it.
You know.

There are many other things that destroy trust and faith in a relationship. It can be a myriad of things. If you ask yourself "Is what I say or do here with X situation something that would hurt my partner or erode the trust we have" and the answer is "yes" then it's more than likely crossing a line or has the potential to damage trust.

If it was only friends, why the secrecy?
If it was only friends, why the sex talk and naked pictures?
I'm open and candid to my partner about meeting /chatting to friends. I've also never in my life sent a sexy text or nude pic to a friend, and the only reason one would send those is to progress the friendship to a sexual relationship.

So here's what you know - facts:
He's been sexually explicit with another woman.
He met up with her and didn't mention it to you.
He's hidden all of this and is lying now.

You don't need to interrogate him to find discrepancies in his statements, nor do you need to stomach those pictures again. Don't put yourself through that. Right here, right now, you have enough to say that he has broken your marriage with his infidelity and that the marriage is over as a result. If you want to end it, that is.

Thank you for your support and replies. We are at a stalemate now. He won't acknowledge it is cheating, he is maintaining the 'just good friends' line. He says he has stopped chatting with her but that she is still messaging him and I have full access to his phone, laptop, tablet etc.
I actually don't think they have met apart from that one time as she lives about 8 hours away. Her breakup is not recent and doesn't fit with the timeline as far as I can understand it. I have asked loads of questions, he has answered them (how truthfully I'll never know).
He says he regrets it, that she pushed for the contact, not him. I don't believe this though, it's definitely 50/50 from the messages I saw.
I'm not exactly sure what I want right now other than a bit of space to think but he's not going anywhere so I'm stuck with him at home, constantly asking me if I'm ok, do I want anything etc. The kids are unaware of the exact circumstances but know something is different. I have spoken with them about how we are trying to work some stuff our and that I can't promise what will happen when they ask questions. I've not told my family yet but I have been very tempted to send some of the messages and photos to his parents. I won't do it but in my fantasy revenge, I would like to.

He should be begging for forgiveness and giving you space, he's treating you awfully and gas lighting you by saying it wasn't cheating. Friends don't send each other those types of photos.

If you did I bet they wouldn't agree it's normal texts between friends!! Call his bluff and tell him you've sent them to his parents, or some other family member / friend to get their advice since he says it's normal friendship texts and you are now doubting yourself, you need outside perspective. Watch him shit himself.

He's STILL treating you like shit OP.

Op! No! Don't allow him to do this to you. Get him out now.

If you don't this will continue for YEARS, you will never trust him, things can never be the same and he will know you are willing to put up with it.

I put up with my exh having emotional affairs and it went on for years with me finding things, him denying things and then us living a half life. Do not do it to yourself.

Kick him out and read the chump lady x

@liliesinthesummer

Thank you for your support and replies. We are at a stalemate now. He won't acknowledge it is cheating, he is maintaining the 'just good friends' line. He says he has stopped chatting with her but that she is still messaging him and I have full access to his phone, laptop, tablet etc. I actually don't think they have met apart from that one time as she lives about 8 hours away. Her breakup is not recent and doesn't fit with the timeline as far as I can understand it. I have asked loads of questions, he has answered them (how truthfully I'll never know). He says he regrets it, that she pushed for the contact, not him. I don't believe this though, it's definitely 50/50 from the messages I saw. I'm not exactly sure what I want right now other than a bit of space to think but he's not going anywhere so I'm stuck with him at home, constantly asking me if I'm ok, do I want anything etc. The kids are unaware of the exact circumstances but know something is different. I have spoken with them about how we are trying to work some stuff our and that I can't promise what will happen when they ask questions. I've not told my family yet but I have been very tempted to send some of the messages and photos to his parents. I won't do it but in my fantasy revenge, I would like to.

He's lying to you. He's trading on your unwillingness to accept that he has cheated. When you say you know where he is and couldn't have done so... he has. he has found the time to meet another woman and the rest.

You have found the evidence and now he is defending himself when there is really no defence. Naked pics ? FFS.. Why do grown up people think it's OK to post pics of their naked body online, anywhere for that matter.

We all have bits, we know where they are and roughly what they look like and lets be fair most of us look better clothed anyway. Naked pics tell me there is intent and it's all probably happened anyway or why would they do this ?
I feel your pain. I've been there when someone has cheated. You feel like your insides are all in the wrong place, and they have done this to you. Get angry and stay strong.

I'd take that even further, and tell him you got a reply and they are outraged on your behalf that he is a dirty cheating shit.