Help me be clear in my mind about a healthy level of support in a relationship

[YesSheCan]

Some of you on here may remember my thread from 2018 about my enmeshed controlling mother and getting myself and DD away from that situation. I had some excellent support and advice on MN and it really helped during a horrible time.

This is VERY LONG but to avoid a dripfeed and to put my thread title in context, here's what's happened since our move from the home we shared with my mother:

On selling the house I owned, where my mother lived with me and DD, I had another house lined up to buy in another county. Agent wrongly advised me no chain. There was a chain, someone down the chain got ill causing delay of several months, my buyers threatened to pull out, I couldn't afford to lose my sale so broke the chain, moved into holiday rental for a month, found another, genuinely chain-free property to buy in same area as one that fell through, got DD started at new school. Because of unforeseen balls-up with the house purchase, wasn't able to pay off all the debts I amassed over the years due to sickness absence from self-employed work due to chronic illness, legal costs from family court cases, reduced income year on year due to having to reduce hours because of health conditions. Then the sellers of the latest property I was going to buy 'suddenly realised' they didn't have grant of probate to sell (deceased relative's property) and yet another attempted purchase was delayed by months. Agreed to rent it off them until legal stuff sorted then rent would be deducted from purchase price. BUT in meantime DD, then 12, had a big meltdown after starting at new school, eventually refusing to go altogether, behaviour so problematic that I had to stop working and sought help from CAMHS (DD refused to attend any appointments so they based their opinion on the account I gave without assessing her, but advised me her problems were all behavioural as a result of the situation with my mother and I needed to do a parenting course). I went to initial session where was given handouts to access an online parenting teens programme. Made plans to home educate DD and fit work around this. DD refused to cooperate with home ed despite initially begging me to do it. Behaviour worse and worse until I couldn't cope and decided to pull out of the house purchase and move back to our old area so that DD could return to her old school. This meant I lost thousands in rent and aborted purchase fees plus cost of another move. We were technically homeless for two months between moves and had to stay with my dad then luckily were able to be housesitters for someone. Jan 2019 DD returned to her old school and was glad to be back with her few friends there, but behaviour at home did not really improve. Then over course of two terms at school she did less and less work and started to refuse to go in on occasions. Internet overuse became more of a problem, she gave up her interests, school were only bothered about her attendance but didn't care that she wasn't applying herself in her studies (DD's background is gifted and talented in maths and English, also a talented musician and academic all-rounder, so I was very concerned to see her giving it all up and vegetating). So I decided to get her to a private school where I hoped there would be more discipline and encouragement to fulfil her potential. She actually took entrance exam and got a scholarship and was also awarded generous bursary. Started there in Sept 2019, I did 45 min drive there and back twice daily as no school or public transport between the towns. This massively affected my availability for work so have been struggling along on greatly reduced income (then nothing since covid). Could barely afford petrol for the school journey. Decided would have to move again to be near DD's new school and so I would be able to work regularly again. Made improvements to house, put on market Jan 2020, sold in June when lockdown eased. Before lockdown, DD's school refusal got a lot worse again, it was now obvious she was depressed and had bad anxiety. I arranged for her to see school counsellor (who has been great) and eventually got CAMHS referral. DD was working towards full attendance just as lockdown happened and school closed. Been doing full timetable of remote lessons throughout lockdown and has had remote therapy sessions with CAMHS, this time engaging with appointments. Behaviour much better but still struggles with motivation, mood and anxiety. We have just moved yet again, this time into rental as my finances weren't up to porting my mortgage. Have paid off all my debts which felt amazing. New place is walking distance from school. I have new job lined up. And I feel positive about the help DD is now getting after our very difficult time with my mum and the aftermath of that.

Which brings me to my thread title...

Have been with DP for 3 and a bit years so he's aware of the situation with my mum, although I was careful not to involve him closely with that as didn't want him running for the hills. Me sorting out all the aftermath of moving away from my mum has meant things haven't been very settled and I can understand that's not ideal in a relationship. I've also struggled financially so we haven't been able to do nice things like go on holiday or weekend breaks for ages. In May 2019 DP said he was thinking of ending things and needed time to think. At the same time one of my siblings was critically ill in ICU and almost died so I was more concerned about that. After 2 months DP said he wanted us to stay together (at this point I was ready to walk away as he'd been saying he still didn't know what he wanted). We agreed to communicate better but when I tried to initiate conversations about issues in our relationship we had both said needed discussion, he put it off and it's never really happened. He withdraws if anything happens I might need support with (and except for two or three days altogether of helping with house moves) I haven't asked him for any help with all the things I've been dealing with. My dad was diagnosed with cancer earlier this year, I found out by text from dad while on socially distanced walk with DP and he blanked me when I told him, said he 'didn't know what to say' when I later told him I'd been upset by this, and hasn't asked after my dad at all since then (he has met him several times).

Then the other day, DP came over to our new place for the first time (he didn't help me move as he was having tradesmen in to do work on his place on the same day, but said he'd help with lifting boxes etc while I was packing and preparing to move then failed to turn up). I told him I'd paid off all my debt earlier that day and I was so pleased and relieved after the rollercoaster I'd had over the last two years. I really did feel good about it. But he said, 'yeah but you're in rental now so it's not much of a win'. I just felt like it would have been nice for him to acknowledge that I'd managed to get through a tough time. My friends have been so morally supportive and encouraging but he doesn't even seem to understand the situation I've been in. I have anxiety, past history of depression and chronic fatigue issues which I do my best to self-manage as well as engage with treatment. I don't expect him to do any sort of 'caring' for me. I try to get on with things. I don't moan too much about feeling rubbish and I do my best not to take out a bad day on him. If I am a bit grumpy or haven't been in touch for a day or two I'll acknowledge it.

Because of the long history of with my mother, I still struggle with knowing what level of support is healthy to expect in a relationship. I tend toward avoiding asking for help and avoiding confrontation. I don't expect him to help me with all practical things that need doing - I'm pretty capable - and I don't expect him to be constantly available to offload all my worries and stresses on to, I know that's not healthy. But I feel there's no emotional support there. For context, throughout our relationship I have listened while he talks about work stresses, difficult colleagues, changing jobs, and tried to be understanding when he's cancelled coming over last minute because he's tired/has a headache/has an upset stomach etc. Even when I've been really struggling with my own stuff I've tried to make sure I don't make it all about me.

So really my question is, given my background, what level of support from a non-live-in partner do you think is reasonable to expect? Thanks if you've made it this far reading.

Link to thread about situation with mother:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3289206-to-change-DDs-school-move-away-to-have-a-life-separate-from-DM

Wow, OP - you've had an incredibly challenging couple of years. Sounds like you've held it together amazingly well and are now getting to a good place. Good for you.

As regards how much support is it reasonable to expect - I would say: more support than he's giving you but it may partly stem from the type of support you are seeking from him.

My DH is not good at knowing what to say in emotionally demanding situations which he can't fix himself and I think it may be a skill which comes more naturally to women than men. On the other hand, my DH is brilliant at giving practical support which allows me to deal with the matter in hand. For example, several years ago when my mother was terminally ill and our DCs were young, he was rather non-plussed when I got very emotional but he simply took over the childcare and running the household many weekends so I could go and spend the time with her. He didn't fuss about it - he just stepped up and did it. And that was, in fact, the most helpful thing he could have done and ultimately worth a lot more than saying the right thing.

It is frustrating if your partner leans on you for emotional support and doesn't reciprocate but that could partly be to do with your respective strengths and weaknesses.

However, only you can decide whether or not what he does provide by way of practical support makes up for what is missing by way of emotional support. For me, actions count for a lot more than words. So if your partner generally does the right things, for me that would be worth more than just saying the right thing. But it has to work for you. Otherwise, it's not good enough.

Thanks @dery - yes, I'm also of the 'actions speak louder than words' opinion. I wouldn't find platitudes helpful if he then did nothing to follow through on them. He said he'd come over on a particular day to help with lifting boxes/dismantling furniture during the preparation for the move (I am small, slight and don't have much physical stamina due to chronic health issues. I rarely ask him for help with house stuff but asked if he could help this time). He then said on the day that he didn't feel up to it so we rearranged for another day. I kept expecting him to turn up but by the evening it was clear he wasn't coming and he eventually said he'd got engrossed in his book then dozed off. He's changed his mind about coming over many times, using excuses about not feeling well or feeling tired. I've even advised him more than once to see his GP and get checked out for a physical problem or depression but I don't think he has done. He's pretty physically fit.

I'm just unsure about how much support I should expect, how much I should ask for and what is a reasonable dealbreaker as although I think I know what a healthy relationship should look like, deep down I still don't fully trust myself to have healthy expectations, if that makes sense.

“He then said on the day that he didn't feel up to it so we rearranged for another day. I kept expecting him to turn up but by the evening it was clear he wasn't coming and he eventually said he'd got engrossed in his book then dozed off. He's changed his mind about coming over many times, using excuses about not feeling well or feeling tired.”

Yes - that’s not good enough. He sounds unreliable and uncommitted.

Yes, I'm a bit fed up with feeling uncared for. I told him his snarky comment about being in a rented house not being a win was hurtful and he acknowledged that he 'could have been more enthusiastic' - used feeling tired and ratty as an excuse. I usually feel tired, can sometimes be a bit short or impatient when I'm anxious or premenstrual but I don't say mean, snarky things because I'm tired. I've told him I'd like us to have a proper talk about our relationship. I'll just have to have it clear in my mind what I want and try not to feel bad about telling him if I'm still unhappy. I do find this hard though and tend towards a default of accepting excuses and giving people the benefit of the doubt, even when I rationally know that this isn't the best thing to do. Really need to toughen up.

Every relationship has its ups and downs but in the end the relationship should make you feel generally supported, nurtured, secure and content. If it doesn't do those things, then it's probably not good enough for you.

He sounds useless. How does he actually improve your life?

@rantyanty to be honest, not much recently. Guess I'll have to see how our relationship discussion goes. That'll be fun!

Well, we went for a walk on the weekend. DD didn't want to come so I took the opportunity to have a talk about our relationship insofar as where DP sees things going. He had a wobble 18 months ago, the old 'I don't know what I want, I need time to think', and after 2 months decided he wanted to continue our relationship. We agreed then that we needed to communicate better and discuss relationship concerns properly rather than avoiding them. This hasn't happened, and I've tried. One of the things he mentioned last year was not wanting a full-on stepdad role because as a kid he saw his teenage half-brother get on really badly with his dad and thinks it would be the same for him living with a partner's teenage child. He also said he wasn't sure if he wanted kids or not and assumed that I wouldn't be wanting any more. I said I'd consider it, realistically just the one more, and only if the relationship and my health were good enough. Now I'm less inclined towards the idea, as we're 18 months on, I'm now 40, I had bad post natal anxiety after my daughter's birth and don't think I could count on DP to cope with this very well if it happened again, and I don't think he would treat DD as though she was welcome in the new family setup. When we talked the other day, he again said he didn't want to be a stepdad, I said yes, I know, we've been together 3.5 yrs and you and DD don't have a stepparent/stepchild relationship so she's not suddenly going to expect that to happen now...but if we have a kid together, first off we'd have to be living together, and even though DD will likely be leaving home at 18 to go to uni, I want our home to be her home to come back to in holidays etc and I don't want her to feel pushed out. He said 'I don't want to play happy families with [DD's name]' which I thought was a horrible thing to say. I've had an extremely challenging time with DD over last couple of years, with her behaviour taking a nosedive after all the bonkers stuff with my mum, then it gradually transpiring that DD wasn't just behaving appallingly, she has bad anxiety and had got quite depressed. It wasn't surprising after the upheaval she'd been through that this happened. When I was really struggling, I spoke to DP about how hard I was finding it. He listened and said he didn't feel it was his place to get involved. He didn't agree with the house moves I made to try to sort out DD's schooling etc. But he's never directly experienced any of her bad behaviour or been expected to help support her through her MH difficulties. She usually goes to her room when he comes over because we're 'boring' and he doesn't really chat to her or show any interest in how she's doing, which she must pick up on. He seems to think (again I reckon down to his personal experience of his/his siblings' teenage years) that at 14 DD has the 'most difficult years' just ahead of her and he doesn't want to be part of this. I'm not sure why he let things get serious with me as he knew from the outset that I had a child and how old she was. Anyway I'm basically rambling and offloading now but it doesn't look like there's a good future for this relationship, does it? I guess there's a tiny part of me that thinks, 'maybe when I say it's not working, he'll realise he needs to step up and actually pull it out of the bag' but being realistic I don't think that's going to happen, if a 42 yr old man still doesn't know what he wants after being with someone for three and a half years. Opinions welcome

You should have ended it when he played his 'will he, won't he' game before. By carrying on you've only really delayed the inevitable.

He's a shit DP and he seems to give you very little benefit for being in your life. From what you say, all you get is negativity so if you dumped him you can guarantee your life would be immediately better.

Don't waste any more time on the sink costs fallacy, get out and start living your life, without this negative fun hoover.

There are decent DPs out there. Don't settle. Be single as a preference to someone who actively makes your life worse.

@treacletoots after 8 weeks of hardly any contact, 'I still don't know what I want' and 'I think it's over', I put in an email very clearly the things I wanted from a relationship, no pressure on him, just, is this what you want too? If not then yeah let's call it a day. More umming and ahhing and then he asked if he could come over. I geared myself up to tell him I wasn't going to wait any longer and if he still didn't know what he wanted I was done. Then he came over and said what I'd put in my email was what he wanted too, that the things he'd been unhappy with that he'd been blaming on our relationship weren't to do with our relationship at all but to do with him. And asked if we could carry on. At the time I took him at face value and thought he'd be more open and supportive. But obviously now I can see that hasn't happened, yes, I may as well have ended it then.

He’s not a partner, he is clearly not supportive or someone you can rely on, even in relatively good times!

I feel genuinely sad at how many women put up with such low standards for a relationship (myself included)

My reason was due to an emotionally abusive toxic mother who made me believe I had no worth unless I had a man. This took me until I was 30 to realise just how wrong it was, and how I could stop repeating the same mistakes.

Please end this, and look to take the freed program which may help you not to make the same mistakes in the future

@treacletoots I've been NC with my mother for just over 2 years as it dawned on me throughout my 30s that the way she treated me actually wasn't normal and loving after all, but controlling and emotionally abusive, and I could see the same happening to my daughter and had to put a stop to it before she got totally screwed up. I had 24 sessions of cognitive analytic therapy before I could actually take the steps to tell my mum I didn't want to share a house with her any more (had tried to assert my independence years earlier when DD was a baby but the massive guilt trips still worked on me then), put my house on the market and prepare for the move, without shaking and vomiting with fear and anxiety. I feel sad that it had to come to going NC but I actually feel free now. I do think more therapy is needed though as I still put up with stuff I'm not happy with and find it hard to assert myself in relationships and this seems to be a bit of a stumbling block

Bin him, OP. He sounds quite unpleasant. You and your DD are a package - he doesn’t get to be with the mother but ignore her child.

Yes. I've been NC for a decade now and could have written what you did. You've come a very long way, just by taking these steps, please keep going and get rid of any relationships that aren't positive for you.

It's not easy. I almost slipped up and dated a horrid person for 3 months (2 months longer than I should) because.old habits and patterns are hard to break, but you can do this. You can move onwards and upwards. We have your back.

Ah thanks. The sad thing is, I don't think DP is intentionally unpleasant. I think he has his own issues and is emotionally immature. But you'd hope that someone would be motivated enough to work on these things by their 40s as it must have caused them problems in the past. I reckon if I managed it then he can too. He does sometimes seem to have some insight, says he can be tactless without meaning to and finds it very hard to have conversations about feelings. But he'll have to make a huge effort to get some therapy or whatever he needs for me to consider staying now because I don't really want a relationship that feels like I'm shouldering all the emotional burden all the time. And yeah, none of this is an excuse for his attitude towards DD

His attitude towards your daughter is appalling. He is unsupportive. He talks like he is still stuck in his teen mind. He is unreliable. Loads of issues. Why are you even questioning yourself? Get rid.

Could he be on the autistic spectrum, with you saying he just doesn't understand??
Still doesn't change the fact that he is not giving you what you need

@rigamorph I've wondered that but don't think he'd respond very well to me suggesting it

I agree with PP, what he’s giving you is nowhere near good enough. Your DD might well become happier with him out of the picture too.

Simply put, if he wanted to commit to you he would have by now. Life is difficult for everyone (I mean look at how much you have gone through the past few years!) so excuses about side-lining you and not being in a place where he feels he can step up are just that - excuses

Simply put again - you deserve more than this