CBT Therapy

[RobRobRobRob]

I have been married to DW for 4 years, together over 10 yrs. I has been sexless for three / 4 years (one or twice a year). I was becoming unhappy subconsciously and felt tired / anxious / depressed so went to my GP. Didnt want ADs so I did CBT and its made a massive change. Im not there yet, and the issues in the relationship are still there.

By therapist focuses on exploring how childhood events explain how we experience life in adulthood. For me - I was bundled off to boarding school at age 7 which I hated for a long time. Later though I started to excel academically and loved school. Its made me very independent, but the flip side would be that maybe I have struggled to be at one with my feelings and I don't open up that much.

One issue I have in my marriage is that I feel my wife has become very dominant - she has suggested that I am painting her as abusive which I am not but she is in some aspect a bit controlling, and can be aggressive. She has admitted she has anger issues.

So this is where I am a bit stumped - talking through early school and therapist suggests that my trauma from going to school from so young means that I fail to "feel" my wifes love and tenderness etc. I that I have evolved into not wanting to receive warmth and affection. I am left baffled because it feels like she takes all my problems and swings them back onto me. Another example would be, I explain that my wife can be passive aggressive (criticises if my ironing or cleaning isnt good enough, refuses to apologize to me etc) and again its like the therapist will flip it around and highlight that its the way I "experience" it as being negative

I'm wondering whether carrying on in the marriage is the right decision. Therapist "you are seeking loneliness because that what you are used to at school"

So put simply - is therapy meant to try and make you the best version of yourself and turn everything into self-reflection and self-improvement? Does anyone think maybe some other relationship counselling on the side would also be effective. I have spoken about joint counselling with my wife, she verbally agrees but shoes no more interest. Sorry for the rant

Firstly that's not CBT. Secondly, it sounds as though the therapist is being very challenging and asking you questions so that you can reflect. We can't change others, we can only change ourselves and she is asking you to look at your feelings differently and stop pointing the finger.

However, if your wife is abusive, you don't do couple's counselling as it can be used by the abuser to further abuse. You also don't want to work on things with an abuser.

As you become healthier, you can start to see toxic patterns and relationships that weren't previously apparent.

Therapy is a journey and can be very hard. It can trigger memories you've buried or bring about unpleasant feelings. The best thing to do is bring all this up with your therapist. Write down how you're feeling. It doesn't matter if it's anger, hurt, rage, whatever, if the therapist is experienced, they will be used to it. Explain why you're confused and discuss it.

I would also get some advice on your wife's behaviour. Contact the Men's Advice Line for advice and support: 0808 8010327

Oh right.... if its not CBT what is it?

Its just therapy. It isnt true that abusers dont change. The behaviour is the problem, not the person.

Your therapist is reframing your view that your wife may have destructive behaviours. She may seek to attend therapy to understand those behaviours thus saving your marriage.

No idea, could be psychodynamic therapy? You can read about CBT here.

CBT tends to talk about the here and now, what is going on in the present. For example:

You: Today I saw a friend and I waved but he completely ignored me. I've been anxious ever since. Maybe I've done something to annoy him? I've been wracking my brains trying to think of what I could have done. Perhaps I haven't called enough?

Therapist: Do you think he saw you?

You: He must have done I was waving and shouting his name.

Therapist: Maybe he had headphones in?

And so on...

CBT tends to be quite structured, focused on the present and specific.

You need to establish what kind of counselling you're doing.

Psychodynamic therapy is more expensive and takes a lot longer. It delves into your childhood and focuses on relationships that you had as a child. The idea is that often there is a link between childhood experiences and problems in adulthood. It is focused mainly in the past.

Person centred or humanistic counselling is where the counsellor is completely on your side. It is non judgemental and the counsellor offers empathy and honesty. The person centred counsellor validates your experiences and believes that you are the expert in your own life. It is focused on both the past and the present.

CBT is where the therapist tries to change negative patterns or behaviours, there is no effort to establish the cause of these patterns just to recognise and change them. It is focused on the here and now.

If your counsellor is either CBT or person centred then they are awful. They shouldn't be challenging your perception of things at all. That's not what they are there for. I have less experience of psychodynamic therapy so won't pass judgement on that. You should definitely KNOW if you're doing this type of counselling as it can be very difficult.

I would be looking to change counsellors regardless, you aren't comfortable with this person and I think you are correct in your doubts if how they should be.

I wouldn't do relationship counselling until you feel more comfortable in expressing your viewpoint. I would be looking to change counsellors. Good luck.

Thanks everyone - TBH I admit that its not something that I know that much about. I was referred by my GP, and because its through insurance I was somewhat limited to what was available. Also, when I started there was very little availability so I took whoever was available. I was in a dark place and just needed something. In hindsight I should have learnt more about the different techniques. I've been in it 8 months now and will go on for another 3 months.

She describes herself as a Psychoanalytic Psychotherapist (and then goes on to say that she uses Psychoanalytic and Psychodynamic approaches, as well as Humanistic, Attachment and Mentalisation Based Therapy)

It is painful at times but looking back I think its turned me into a different person. I understand a lot more about me, who I am and how that affects my relationships now.

I wonder whether it would be worthwhile on doing some person centered counselling alongside as well. I think one of the issues I have is that this is my only real relationship in my life ... so I have nothing to judge or benchmark. For example ... (and please don't judge me for this) but essentially our marriage has been pretty sexless from the start. I thought this was 'normal' ... but only recently did I start to think it wasn't. We always prioritized other things in our life.... I now know that there was a reason for this. And not that its not normal, but just that its I want something more from a relationship.

Regardless of whether the relationship is normal or your DW is/isn’t abusive or aggressive, it’s not making you happy so it’s ok to leave.

Not all relationships are for life, and there will be plenty of other options out there for you. People leave for all sorts of reasons and what you’ve listed doesn’t seem to be particularly unusual. A lack of intimacy, a critical partner with anger issues, one of you doing some serious self-reflection and the other one not growing alongside, are all reasons for couples to drift apart.

You don’t have to keep flogging a dead horse. There’s nothing wrong with you wanting to feel love and affection from a partner and you don’t need to counsel yourself out of your feelings.

Perhaps your therapist is pointing to the dynamic in your relationship in which your DW is aggressive, critical or lacking tenderness because you have been buttoned up, non-responsive or lacking emotional intuition over her needs? Just a thought?
You actually need a heart to heart with your DW about her needs as well as yours?

Thanks Mark. I take that on board

Baba - Yea its definitely making me think about it. But I think my wife is also extremely introverted. We never discuss our relationship or how we make each other feel. We never had heart to hearts. Since therapy I have started to try and get the ball rolling.. its me that kicks it off and I have realised that if I dont it will go back to the status quo.. that is not discussing it. I've tried to be open and honest with her and asked her to explore why we think we are in a sexless marriage. She thinks it pretty normal, and that I have the wrong impression that people have sex frequently. She also says that its the stress of work and life etc. But in lockdown we didnt have sex (we havent for 9 months) and then a year before that so I argued that we busy ourselves with work / diy etc as a means of not addressing an underlying issue. She disagreed.

If you think you mght be at all passive-aggressive (which tends to happen when men are taught young that they shouldn't let their emotions show, which I can't imagine boarding school helped with much) you can end up with a very frustrated wife who feels very unlistened to and wound up to screaming point. You then interpret that as her anger issues and controlling nature.

As for sex, there is a point in an unhappy relationship when a woman just stops fancying you and doesn't want sex with you anymore. The 'ick'. In a casual relationship, this is where a natural dumping occurs but unfortunately in more settled arrangements it's very difficult to say to a man - "I want sex but just not with you mate" so everyone pretends it's stress, tiredness, kids, hormones etc to make it less personal.

It will be equally difficult and potentially relationship-shattering to admit this in counselling possibly hence her resistance to it. People don't always want to throw such a verbal bomb into the middle of domestic arrangements that are otherwise limping along if they're not up for the conseqences of that.

In summary, a woman who is unhappy with your behaviour generally doesn't want to have sex with you and eventually that becomes permanent. You can argue all you like with them that your behaviour is perfectly reasonable but if it makes her unhappy, bye bye sex. But you are within your rights to end the relationship if sex is more important to you than the current set up.

@Antibles

Did you read the update where the OP says the sex life has never been a priority in a relationship?

Did you read where he said his wife was the one who could be passive aggressive?
Have you decided the OP is completely to blame because he's a man?

There are lots of threads on here about men who are fed up with no or not enough sex.

It could be that things are just not right between you and she doesn’t feel the mental or emotional connection.

That she’s just not that into you or the relationship feels stale.

That her hormones have changed and she’s not into sex.

That she’s not happy with her body.

That she’s frightened of getting pregnant.

That she is carrying the bigger load (housework, arranging stuff, remembering stuff etc) and you’ve not noticed or not pulled your weight and she therefore no longer sees you as a partner and is knackered being the ‘mum’ figure and you’re the ‘child’ figure (and what normal person wants to have sex with their son).

Or that she no longer fancies you because you’ve put on weight or grown/shaved your beard or some other physical thing that makes you not the way you were. Smelly feet, snoring, whatever.

Perhaps she’s tried to talk to you and can’t. Who knows. Can’t see it would do you any harm to go to another therapist for a different view.

It could be that things are just not right between you and she doesn’t feel the mental or emotional connection
Yes - although its been sexless for three or four years and she has never said. (Albeit before then it wasnt like every week, it was maybe 6-8 times a year)

That she’s just not that into you or the relationship feels stale
Yes - again, but she hasn't said

That her hormones have changed and she’s not into sex
Yes - again, but she hasn't said

That she’s not happy with her body
I think this is likely to play some part. Her weight has fluctuated although the sex didn't get more frequent when she was slimmer. And before I get roasted..... I have never once told her to lose weight - I don't mention it and I support her when she tries to be a bit more healthy. I cook for her and always try and do healthy options. She is on a diet and I ask her for meals to cook etc.

That she’s frightened of getting pregnant
She knows I would like to start a family

That she is carrying the bigger load (housework, arranging stuff, remembering stuff etc) and you’ve not noticed or not pulled your weight and she therefore no longer sees you as a partner and is knackered being the ‘mum’ figure and you’re the ‘child’ figure (and what normal person wants to have sex with their son)
No - she has been working 15 hour days in lockdown. I have been doing all the cooking, cleaning and ironing etc. I have been working 10 hour days

Or that she no longer fancies you because you’ve put on weight or grown/shaved your beard or some other physical thing that makes you not the way you were. Smelly feet, snoring, whatever
Perhaps - I'm slimmer than when she met me, maybe I snore or something. But she surely has to tell me. And likewise, if I were to say that I no longer fancied my wife because of lets say her weight... I would get roasted...

For my side of the story - it was never a relationship full of sex, I put a low priority onto it. When I got to 34 though I wanted to have a family. She had some family issues that meant she was away supporting them a lot so the sex dwindled. On the one or two occasions we did have sex then it became such a pressure TTC when its so infrequent. We've both buried our head in the sand I admit that.

I felt with therapy I might start to deal with that ... although I appreciate its not specifically about sex. But it did push me to address the elephant in the room. I have tried to explain to my wife that I felt sex wasn't enjoyable and explained the TTC pressure etc. She just said she didn't feel romantic and said that she wants more foreplay. I suggested it was something outside of the bedroom but she disagreed.

So I guess I dont know where to turn now.

I wonder if there is something called parallel process going on her. Your wife tells you what you reality is and now your therapist is telling you too.

How would you feel about challenging your therapist when she says things you don't agree with or find baffling? This may be a good place to try and bring your wants and needs to a relationship instead of accepting what you are told you are/should be?

Therapy should be the place to have this reparative relationship and any variety of therapy should be able to offer this.

Someone once said - ‘Most people, most of the time, want to have an intimate loving relationship with somebody.’ I think it’s true - and if your DW is not wanting that with you, is controlling, critical and evasive and doesn’t want to improve things or end things, I might suspect she was seeking attention elsewhere. I think you deserve honesty from her. Her silence is speaking to you - and you can leave on that account.

Oh - and there is nothing ‘normal’ or OK about a sexless marriage where on half of the relationship wants more.

one half

Sounds like you both need to be honest with each other about what each of you need from your relationship.

It’s hard I know. I was with someone who had a higher sex drive than me and I ended it because I didn’t feel we were compatible. I didn’t want to be pestered and I didn’t want him to feel dissatisfied.

Had I been with him for years and we had a house together and mutual friends, a joint car, joint pets etc I don’t know if I would have been brave enough to go, and lose the companionship I was used to and half of everything.

@d3UPATjk

I wonder if there is something called parallel process going on her. Your wife tells you what you reality is and now your therapist is telling you too.

How would you feel about challenging your therapist when she says things you don't agree with or find baffling? This may be a good place to try and bring your wants and needs to a relationship instead of accepting what you are told you are/should be?

Therapy should be the place to have this reparative relationship and any variety of therapy should be able to offer this.

Thanks for this. Its really got me thinking. Yea you know what next time my therapist does say something that I don't agree with I am going to say well I don't agree with that and I think you are just taking my wife's side. I wondered whether it was because she was just siding with my wife most of the time, or that she was just being devils advocate on purpose as a means of trying to get me thinking and processing.

@Elieza

Sounds like you both need to be honest with each other about what each of you need from your relationship.

It’s hard I know. I was with someone who had a higher sex drive than me and I ended it because I didn’t feel we were compatible. I didn’t want to be pestered and I didn’t want him to feel dissatisfied.

Had I been with him for years and we had a house together and mutual friends, a joint car, joint pets etc I don’t know if I would have been brave enough to go, and lose the companionship I was used to and half of everything.

Yes it is hard... but I have processed this quite a bit in the past 9 months. I came to the conclusion that houses / friends / car etc are replaceable. Sounds a bit cold I know, but a house is just that. I've worked hard over my career to earn and work my way up the property ladder. If I've done it once, I can do it again. Being single I would expand my friend network... I don't think any of our joint friends are core to me in that sense.

Yes I would lose a lot, but its that balance of weighing up mental happiness for the next 40 years and I don't want to get to the end of my life not experiencing an embracing sexual relationship.

It's not true that cbt only focuses on the present.

When doing it properly we have to explore a clients early experiences to find out their 'core beliefs/schema' which influence the way they experience the world in the here and now.

A lot of 'low intensity' cbt that's available on the nhs won't involve this though, as it doesn't focus on core belief work, only 'surface thoughts (NATs)'.

Having said that, this doesn't sound very cbt to me - more psychodynamic. But if it's helpful it's helpful.

Most therapists are 'integrative' these days, meaning they draw from several different approaches in line with what the client is bringing.

Hi OP, it sounds as though you are outgrowing the relationship if I am honest.

When I had my psychodynamic therapy to escape DV, understandably there was very little sticking up for the other side.

There was a lot of work on my inner voice and self esteem, however and my therapist was not afraid to challenge me.

What I realised through this was that I had managed to recreate the same feeling of irrelevance in all relationships as I had with my parents, including at work, with my partner, friends choices.
Since therapy i have gone NC with parents, got rid of the ex and am leaving my job.

Redefining long term entrenched opinions of you held by others can be impossible. You sought that situation when you were a different person to who you become.

I have undertaken CBT also several times, but it isn't for me. This for me was more about challenging your perception of a situation, the situation remaining unchanged and you moving your response to it. For me sometimes life was just shit and pretending it wasn't by changing my perspective felt like lying to myself.

This is just my personal experience of therapy, but the point is, maybe you are changing and that is ok.

Hi OP,

It sounds to me like your therapist is trying nicely to challenge how you hear what your wife is telling you. The following is a good example of of something you said which I think points to how you "experience" what she's telling you...

"I have tried to explain to my wife that I felt sex wasn't enjoyable and explained the TTC pressure etc. She just said she didn't feel romantic and said that she wants more foreplay. I suggested it was something outside of the bedroom but she disagreed."

So in summary you've raised a concern, she's given you her perspective, you've disagreed with her perspective and told her that it was something else and she told you again it wasn't.

I know it's hard with lock down and you both sound like you're under an awful lot of pressure with work and family but as a result of this conversation did you try to do anything romantic? Did you try more foreplay or any physical affection without the expectation of it leading to sex? I'm not saying that this will lead to more sex but a lack of romance and foreplay is a frequent killer of sexual relationships.

More generally if you want to stay together (and that definitely sounds like it's an if) you may need to recognise that her perspective, no matter how much or little it accords with your own, is reality to her and vice versa.