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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I mean or just antisocial? Can anyone relate to this?

52 replies

GirlsWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 15:22

I never understood social interaction. I’ve never had any friends, close relationships with people, etc, etc... the whole shebang, you get the picture. By age 22, I’ve come to live with it. I’m not autistic - in fact, I work in public relations, and can be superficially charming. To confuse matters further, colleagues and casual acquaintances consistently describe me as ‘pleasant to deal with’, ‘well-brought up’, ‘fascinating to talk to’ and so forth. People get back to me and enjoy my company in one-off professional situations.

But deep inside, I’m mean and profoundly antisocial. I’ve only been able to evaluate it now, after a specific incident that happened last night, but it goes way back. Last night, I went to meet a friend for dinner. She is 39, we met through work and have been meeting up for lunch and going clubbing a few times (no more than 10 in total). This is rare for me, but I went along with it because she initiated it. I have many interests and a good erudition, but all she seemed to want to talk about consistently is men. That was difficult for me, as I found it a boring topic and couldn’t contribute anything, but I went along with that, too, again because it’s unusual for me to have someone that wants to spend time with me, and I wanted to try it. She decided to join a few apps to meet a man, and eventually convinced me to do the same, just to keep her company. With my complete lack of understanding of how intimate, informal communication is meant to work, that resulted in a few odd cases as well, where I’d had to abruptly stop talking to someone because I didn’t know how to behave. But mainly, I lost interest in the apps until fairly recently, with COVID-19 and everything, my friend convinced me to join a new one.

It’s an exclusive app where the user pool is quite limited. She started seeing a man she met on the app, went to dates, slept with him. All this has been going on for about two months. Whenever we meet for dinner, she would talk about him. He sounds distant, is obviously far less interested in her than she is in him (I’ve seen text exchanges), and has just left for the US without mentioning when and whether he’s coming back. She would mostly say how he’s too distant for her liking, she needs someone more emotionally available, and I would nod along. Exactly a week ago, this man (he has a really unique name, and I mean really unique, up there with the likes of Annunziata, Larabelle and such) liked my profile on the app. He is absolutely not my style, also I’m over the entire app experience anyway, but I thought long and hard about whether I should tell her. Here’s when social interaction comes in. My mother and a few other acquaintances advised me against telling her. I felt it would be best to say something because otherwise it would be something that had happened behind her back.

Cut the long story short, I told her as we were about to have dinner. The exact words I used were, ‘I think [guy’s unique name] liked me on [app name], do you think it’s the same [guy’s unique name]. She asked when this happened, which was a few days ago. I showed her the like and was completely open. She got up and left, leaving me to pay for both our orders. That’s not what interests me here, though. I paid, had a good evening, messaged her in the morning to apologise for upsetting her if I did, but trying to explain my reasoning. Again, I was very direct, saying that if I was in her place, I would want (or even expect!) to be told. Also, I emphasised that I didn’t message him, that we had zero interaction and that I felt it was something I had to share with her, so she had a full picture of who this guy is. I then said it’s to be expected that guys on apps write to many people at once and that it’s nothing to be upset about. I would have understood if her annoyance stemmed from me having interacted with him, which I didn’t.

She replied - and here comes my real question - that ‘what I said was hurtful’ and that she ‘doesn’t understand why I would show her the like’. I again said that it’s to keep her in the loop. But I honestly don’t understand why what I did was hurtful, and I don’t understand how other people knew it would hurt her in advance. I had nothing to do with the man, nor would I want to. I understand, analytically, that we all like to shoot the messenger/bearer of bad news. But equally, we’ve known each other longer than she’s known him. My intention was for her to go and look for another guy and stop obsessing over this one, which I is the advice I would still give her if she called me tomorrow. But I see that this, seen from an outsider’s perspective, is probably mean behaviour on my part. It’s not the only time, but it’s the best and most recent example. The problem is that I wouldn’t mind if she did this to me (I did tell her that), I would have seen this behaviour as perfectly acceptable. This applies to most other situations where I feel I don’t understand human behaviour, what upsets people and why. I wouldn’t mind any of it if I was on the receiving end.

OP posts:
GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 20:12

Oh yes, my parents adore me, I had a loving home, was intellectually close to my grandmother and my mother and I are very tactile, we hug a lot. But apart from her, I avoid intimacy,
And well, like I said, I’m about 70%. There are degrees of psychopathy I think. I never cried at funerals or understood why I was supposed to - especially when I was a child, this has caused a fair bit of tension until my parents learnt to accept it. I never found death sad or missed people who were gone/just died. I feel no pity as far as I’m aware - never experienced it towards anyone or anything. I do feel fear. I like to study people like I’m doing social research all the time. I have a high EQ and read people’s thoughts/intentions well when I get where they are coming from, but I don’t know how to react to people who have feelings, especially strong feelings like her. I just don’t understand why she’d care, that’s the bottom line. My original thought process went like this (on her behalf): get on board with this info. Ditch guy. Get new guy, preferably different type.

Fatted · 02/08/2020 20:31

At the end of the day, if you weren't huge friends with her, then I wouldn't spend the energy that you are doing on worrying about why she acted the way she did.

The truth hurts and it clearly upset her having it pointed out he was just using her. Although you know there was nothing going on between you and the man, she may not believe you on that and she may find it easier to blame a younger woman stealing her man from her than accepting he is a dick who used her. Some people will make any old nonsense up to fool themselves.

Sometimes in situations like this, you have to tread carefully. I would have used a different tactic and asked her if she had heard from him, then perhaps bring up that he was still active on the app. If she hadn't taken the hint, I only would have brought it up that he liked your profile then. But I would have said I wasn't sure about saying anything because I didn't want to hurt your feelings, knew how it might look etc.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 20:40

This is a really insightful and interesting post. You’re definitely right, and this is where my personal limitations come in. I’m reading this after the fact, and I still can’t grasp why on Earth this would hurt her feelings, even though everyone has explained it above. But I really appreciate the clarification.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 02/08/2020 20:46

In fact I do think I was in the wrong, but to me it just goes to show I can’t do interaction and should stop trying to save myself the trouble.

So why do you do it? Do you get anything out of it? Because you should? Do you miss social interactions/people when there aren't any?

Save yourself the trouble... is that because you struggle with it (so it's confusing,hard work etc) or because you genuinely don't need it/care.

FairyLights2 · 02/08/2020 21:05

@GirlsWhoIsLearning You didn't do anything wrong. Have you ever taken a personality test? Perhaps explore MBTI, the big 5 or the Enneagram to understand yourself better.

The key to understanding others is hidden away in figuring yourself out first. I don't think you're autistic - you're just highly analytical and want to use logic in every situation. That doesn't mean you can't access your feelings or express emotions as you've displayed clear compassion and a willingness to learn how to communicate better.

Reality is subjective OP. Just like how others have mentioned, I don't think you did anything wrong. In fact, it's pretty clear that your 'friend's' anger was displaced. Instead of her being upset with this loser she's dating, she took it out on you. The fact that you didn't see this tells me that you're always trying to view things objectively but in the process sacrificing your own subjective feelings.

Take time to process your own feelings:

How did she make you feel when she just left you like that?
How does it feel when you struggle to connect with others?

Answer these questions truthfully by yourself and get in touch with the other side of you that you naturally suppress. How that's useful x

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 21:06

Why did I tell her? Because I felt uncomfortable with the idea of not telling. I don’t like intrigue and feel it complicates life unnecessarily. Also, I suppose at the back of my mind I was interested in how she would react.
Why did I hang out with her if it’s not my thing? That’s harder to answer, but in short, I wanted to see if I could do it, what the point is, what friendship looks like. Something like that, as a ‘there’s always a first time’ kind of thing.

Nuffaluff · 02/08/2020 21:06

I don’t think you’ve done anything wrong OP, but maybe you could have shown more tact.
I think some people on here are being really unfair to the 39 year old friend, however. She wants to meet a nice man, settle down and probably have children before she runs out of time. She can’t help talking about meeting a man all the time - it’s all she ever thinks about.
Look at it from her point of view OP. You’re a very young woman, with lots of time ahead of you to meet ‘the one’. She’s probably a bit jealous of you for that. She’s set her hopes on this guy who’s giving her the run around because she can’t find anyone else. She desperately wants it to work out because she wants a partner and a family. You show her that he’s liked your picture, proving that she’s wasting her time. Just imagine how upsetting that was for her. Upsetting and embarrassing- she would feel like a fool.
I would have told her, but would have approached it very carefully. Fatted’s idea above is a really good one.
PS. In Jon Ronson’s book, The Psycopath Test, he says that if you worry you might be a psychopath, then that means you definitely aren’t one.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 21:08

Thanks, I’ll need to think about these.

Nuffaluff · 02/08/2020 21:08

Also, I suppose at the back of my mind I was interested in how she would react.
Okay, that does sound a teensy bit psychopathic. 😂

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 21:11

See, and I do think like that in advance. I’d considered this before I told her. But all in all, like I said in the post, I felt I’d want to know in her place.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 21:13

You make a few quite interesting points. I’m tactful at work but not in interpersonal relationships. And I’m not ‘worried’ about potential psychopathy, I just often feel it might explain some aspects of my character.

Iggly · 02/08/2020 21:14

Well it depends on tone and how you handled it. Was she obsessing? Or just talking about her latest fling? That’s what people do a lot when they meet someone new. They love talking about them.

So a part of me thinks you didn’t handle this well. Your family warned you - probably because they knew how you’d go about it.

You sound quite emotionally detached tbh to me.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 02/08/2020 21:19

Also, I suppose at the back of my mind I was interested in how she would react.
This made me laugh.Grin And yeah, slightly psychopathic, but in your defence human reactions/interactions are very interesting and fascinating. After all, a lot of people claim "people watching as a hobby".

But yeah, my question was why you had a friendship with her in particular, and why do you "do" social interactions in general. Do you miss being with people? Do you wish you had close friends? Do you feel like you're missing out on something important?

Or is it more that everyone does it, it's like something to tick off a list, with some experimenting thrown in, where you have the advantage that you won't end up hurt,betrayed etc if things go tits up.

I honestly don't know or even claim to know what your "problem" might be if there even is one, but Wondering if a lot of it stems from trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

morefun · 02/08/2020 21:27

It does not sound to me that you did anything wrong. I would be glad if a friend told me about the man in that situation. Unless the friend appeared to be smug or gloating (doesn't sound to me that you were though).

I think that she's taken this out on you as she feels she can't confront him really.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 21:37

Ha, yes, you’ve actually got it, for the most part.

[why do you "do" social interactions in general. Do you miss being with people? Do you wish you had close friends? Do you feel like you're missing out on something important?

Or is it more that everyone does it, it's like something to tick off a list, with some experimenting thrown in, where you have the advantage that you won't end up hurt,betrayed etc if things go tits up.]

It’s 90% the latter. I do feel it’s something to tick off the list. Also in professional situations it’s weird if you can’t mention any ‘friends’, experiences with friends, say you know ‘that coffee bar a friend told me about’. It’s definitely part of the social contract I’m in.

I occasionally wonder what it’s like re close relationships. But I usually pull back whenever there’s a chance of anyone getting into my space. I do think in analytical terms that I’d like to be in a couple too, to have safe/predictable/well-managed sex, if nothing else, and kids, and I’ve learnt it’s easier to communicate with new people/men if you’re with other women (sometimes!) though I love going places alone.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 21:42

Iggly, I agree with your entire assessment.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 02/08/2020 21:49

Did you form friendships as a child ? Have you ever been honest about how you feel,or more likely don't with any if the people you've tried forming relationships with?
Do you follow a "pattern" in your relationships?

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 02/08/2020 21:51

Argh pressed send too soon.

By pattern I mean , either pre prepared or taking a few seconds to analyse the situation and follow a pre constructed socially acceptable response. Like Jenny says x, I should say y, if she reacts like z then i should do z.

Do you ever initiate social interactions/relationships?

Apologies for all the questions.Grin

Angrymum22 · 02/08/2020 22:08

High IQ does impart an incredible logical curiosity. It’s also difficult to understand why others don’t process things the way you do. Do you compartmentalise? I find that I have to switch off my emotional side in order to carry out parts of my job, but for family and friends I can be ‘normal’. Basically switch to professional mode when I have to.
I suppose that I am more 50% psychopath so have ample empathy. I overthink which can be a real disability on the non-psycho side but great on the psycho side for anticipating problems ( risk assessment).
My psycho side would consider your actions perfectly logical and reasonable. My non-psycho side would have approached the situation from a very different angle.
I think you have a little way to go with your socialising training but you are still very young and your brain is not yet fully developed.
I think because you haven’t experienced the feelings of attraction then you can’t empathise. Not everyone’s brain matures at the same rate and as far as emotions you may just be a late developer.

Try flirting, it may feel counterintuitive but may encourage the dopamine release you need to feel attraction. I hate flirting with anyone other than my DH because it gets in the way of good conversation. I love flirting with DH because it leads to sex and reinforces our connection ( I don’t think about it that way in real life but understand the neurological pathway). I found flirting when I was single very powerful and it scared me, that’s the logical over thinker speaking. But when I’d worked out how it all worked I was much more at ease.

OP you may well be on the spectrum but the fact you are aware of your social awkwardness means that you can learn how to successfully navigate the world. I do think you need to spend time socialising in a group your own age. Learn to laugh at yourself and dumb down. If you come across as a know it all people tend to label you. I am a natural blonde and played the dumb blonde, I learned to ask stupid questions and make idiotic mistakes which was difficult. I rarely tell people what I
do for a living so they don’t prejudge me.

I have always steered clear of groups of girls/women. I really don’t understand the dynamic there. I prefer mixed groups of friends. I have one or two close female friends but they tend to be like me so understand when I don’t want to ‘join in’.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 22:15

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

Did you form friendships as a child ? Have you ever been honest about how you feel,or more likely don't with any if the people you've tried forming relationships with? Do you follow a "pattern" in your relationships?
I have a ‘formal’ best friend I used to play with as a child. I haven’t spoken to her in 6-7 months and that has gone formal ages ago, but as kids, we’d go on holidays together etc. We used to play fascinating character games (very much like in the film ‘Heavenly Creatures’) and I would love it and work through life via them. As we got older (12+), she lost interest in playing and became all about boys & boyfriends, much like friend I wrote about here. In fact, the association has come to my mind a few times. We have nothing to talk about now. At school, I wanted to be part of the gang because that’s easier, and at the worst peer pressure age - 12 - I easily found myself in the popular gang. I’d buy coffee with them in the morning & go to movies, but I rarely spoke and just tugged along. Come to think about it, the relationship with the gang ended when I ‘attempted’ to imitate gossiping (not that I understand it) and messaged one queen bee about another. Didn’t get me kicked out of the gang, but I became closer to one queen bee than the other and eventually moved away and didn’t try it again.

I definitely do follow a pattern and do exactly what you’ve described: she’ll say x, then I’ll say y. Same with men. And I did actually try to be honest a few times, but I only started doing that a few years ago, aged 20. Ends badly: I end up only talking about myself - much like here - explaining vast amounts of weirdness. Some men find it sexy as I don’t possess typical female traits like empathy (I also love violent movies, which is a bonus), but when push comes to shove, they think it’s all a sexy joke or an act. They don’t realise I wouldn’t know what to say if their mother died tomorrow (in fact, I dread moments that call for expressions of empathy). Also if I have problems, I want everyone to shut up and leave and go to watch a great film. I feel like if I’m honest, ironically, people don’t take me seriously as they think I’m trying to make myself important, or something. But I think I might start being more open about how I think, because it might at least save me some time & give everyone a fair chance to back out.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 22:21

@Angrymum22

High IQ does impart an incredible logical curiosity. It’s also difficult to understand why others don’t process things the way you do. Do you compartmentalise? I find that I have to switch off my emotional side in order to carry out parts of my job, but for family and friends I can be ‘normal’. Basically switch to professional mode when I have to. I suppose that I am more 50% psychopath so have ample empathy. I overthink which can be a real disability on the non-psycho side but great on the psycho side for anticipating problems ( risk assessment). My psycho side would consider your actions perfectly logical and reasonable. My non-psycho side would have approached the situation from a very different angle. I think you have a little way to go with your socialising training but you are still very young and your brain is not yet fully developed. I think because you haven’t experienced the feelings of attraction then you can’t empathise. Not everyone’s brain matures at the same rate and as far as emotions you may just be a late developer.

Try flirting, it may feel counterintuitive but may encourage the dopamine release you need to feel attraction. I hate flirting with anyone other than my DH because it gets in the way of good conversation. I love flirting with DH because it leads to sex and reinforces our connection ( I don’t think about it that way in real life but understand the neurological pathway). I found flirting when I was single very powerful and it scared me, that’s the logical over thinker speaking. But when I’d worked out how it all worked I was much more at ease.

OP you may well be on the spectrum but the fact you are aware of your social awkwardness means that you can learn how to successfully navigate the world. I do think you need to spend time socialising in a group your own age. Learn to laugh at yourself and dumb down. If you come across as a know it all people tend to label you. I am a natural blonde and played the dumb blonde, I learned to ask stupid questions and make idiotic mistakes which was difficult. I rarely tell people what I
do for a living so they don’t prejudge me.

I have always steered clear of groups of girls/women. I really don’t understand the dynamic there. I prefer mixed groups of friends. I have one or two close female friends but they tend to be like me so understand when I don’t want to ‘join in’.

This post is just fantastic. I’m very grateful to you, this is sound, practical advice which I will cherish.

I don’t know if I even have an emotional side to switch off. I have ‘emotions/sensations’ in my chest only if I’m scared (before an operation was a recent one) or when I’m watching a great film, I feel physical pleasure like an orgasm (in fact I have a high sex drive and am very in touch with it).

Thank you very much for your input. You sound amazing. And yes, likewise, I have a much better time interacting with men, also it’s just more interesting.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 02/08/2020 22:51

I definitely do follow a pattern and do exactly what you’ve described: she’ll say x, then I’ll say y.

This might be part of the problem in two ways.

First, your answers (particularly in an intense/emotional situation) might seem dispassionate or rehearsed, which of course they are, and that will put people off.

Second, people are highly unpredictable and so are the situations(fuckups) they create. So while in your head you link it with x or z, and your response is perfectly reasonable and rational it can massively miss the mark. This however comes with life experience and also needs a bit of effort in getting to know someone and what makes them tick.

A bit like categorising them . So something like, most people want and like a hug,or some kind of physical comfort when upset.A few general rules.

Then you move to

Sarah is lonely, really wants a relationship etc- she needs building up , solidarity "can't believe he did that" , "you are so amazing,his loss" type of comments, and optimistic proclamations

Mary is an extrovert, talks through her problems , is very lively - let her rant and rage, make sympathetic noises, go out, have fun

Jane is an introvert , sensitive , takes things to heart- reassurance, quiet nights in, sending a text/flowers/a small gift , just let her know you're there.

Anna is a straight talker, strong, has her own opinions, people might think she's rude or stuck up - be yourself mostly, learn to laugh at yourself, just remember even she might need a hug or a sympathetic awww every now and then.

Disclaimer: these are exaggerated stereotypes and generalisations just to make my point. Hope you get what I mean.

Store these in that amazing head of yours like flip cards. Keep trying and experimenting, see what works and what doesn't ( telling people there's nothing to be upset when they already are upset nearly never works 😬), keep adding to the flip cards. Give it a go being spontaneous and get off the script every now and then. Cast your net big and wide as people fall out and friendships fall to the side even in the best circumstances.

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 22:54

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

I definitely do follow a pattern and do exactly what you’ve described: she’ll say x, then I’ll say y.

This might be part of the problem in two ways.

First, your answers (particularly in an intense/emotional situation) might seem dispassionate or rehearsed, which of course they are, and that will put people off.

Second, people are highly unpredictable and so are the situations(fuckups) they create. So while in your head you link it with x or z, and your response is perfectly reasonable and rational it can massively miss the mark. This however comes with life experience and also needs a bit of effort in getting to know someone and what makes them tick.

A bit like categorising them . So something like, most people want and like a hug,or some kind of physical comfort when upset.A few general rules.

Then you move to

Sarah is lonely, really wants a relationship etc- she needs building up , solidarity "can't believe he did that" , "you are so amazing,his loss" type of comments, and optimistic proclamations

Mary is an extrovert, talks through her problems , is very lively - let her rant and rage, make sympathetic noises, go out, have fun

Jane is an introvert , sensitive , takes things to heart- reassurance, quiet nights in, sending a text/flowers/a small gift , just let her know you're there.

Anna is a straight talker, strong, has her own opinions, people might think she's rude or stuck up - be yourself mostly, learn to laugh at yourself, just remember even she might need a hug or a sympathetic awww every now and then.

Disclaimer: these are exaggerated stereotypes and generalisations just to make my point. Hope you get what I mean.

Store these in that amazing head of yours like flip cards. Keep trying and experimenting, see what works and what doesn't ( telling people there's nothing to be upset when they already are upset nearly never works 😬), keep adding to the flip cards. Give it a go being spontaneous and get off the script every now and then. Cast your net big and wide as people fall out and friendships fall to the side even in the best circumstances.

Really loved this post and the advice. Thank you so much. I’m relieved I could actually get so much useful input here.
empiricallyyours · 02/08/2020 23:07

I'm guessing you haven't yet met 'your people' when it comes to female friendships yet OP as, I have to say, I've found your posts interesting and chatty and engaging.

My advice would be to just be yourself, maybe be a bit bolder about inviting people for coffee etc, but when you find the right kind of person, they will enjoy spending time with you and 'get' you, so you won't feel so much need for learned platitudes and will be more relaxed as a result.

The fact that you enjoy socially experimenting will help. Good luck!

GirlWhoIsLearning · 02/08/2020 23:57

I’ll do my best. Definitely haven’t found my crowd/people yet, but you never know. Thanks for your advice, I’ll try to take the lead sometimes.