At the end of my tether, naughty 8yo.

[Hjgscuk]

I feel like giving up. I don't know what to do. I love all my kids but my 8yo has behaviour problems. Naughty, cannot do what he's told, has a backchat for everything, hurts his siblings, never admits he's wrong. We've tried everything. School referred us to some behaviour help team and they give tips but it's like he just can't behave. Literally cannot. He can't go to bed and stay there. He fake cries waking the other kids, goes in their rooms several times a night, comes in our room several times a night, sometimes until midnight. Just to say he can't sleep or he's bored. I just give up. But there isn't any giving up. He's very sweet and nice and he does love us and his siblings, but at the same time, he just can't behave and doesn't care about other people's feelings. I dread to think what he'll be like as a grown up. I've tried everything.

I don't know what to do. I can't be the parent he needs. I think about moving out. But my other kids need me and are just lovely and I would miss them so much. I can't see him less than the other kids, it'd be cruel and damaging. Even moving out would be cruel and damaging wouldn't it? Dad's do it all the time but I'm sure it'd have a much bigger psychological impact that effectively your mum abandoned you. And even though I'm at the end of my tether with him, I don't want to do that to him, and especially not to my other kids. But I can't carry on like this. I think it would be better for everyone if I was dead. I'm on anti depressants, and I'll go back to the GP and try a different one, but I've been on loads of different ones and they all don't work. If I died they'd be sad and then they'd get over it. But if I just moved out they'd be sad their whole childhoods and I'd have to make that choice of carrying on not living with them every day, and I think that'd be really awful for everyone for years.

My first thought is - has he been assessed by a doctor / pysch? His behaviours may be indicative of something underlying.

Second thought is how much physical exercise / sporting activities is this kid doing daily? It’s hard with lockdown, but generally is he into/do any physical sports to tire him out?

I had a session with a private child psychologist. She didn't see him, because the problem is almost never the child, it's the parenting, and she said that's the case here. He's "normal". Just some kids are harder to parent than others, but doesn't mean there's anything wrong, he's just at the difficult end of the spectrum. He gets some exercise. We have a big garden, football, but he likes lots of computer games too. He needs more one to one parent time, but I just can't anymore. He makes it so horrible and frustrating that it's just how many minutes of game, craft, play etc can we get through before he just makes me wish I never bothered. It's counterproductive because I end up shouting and then everyone gets upset. So he's not getting the one to one attention he needs. I just can't. I just give up. I do understand that's really terrible.

I know it's probably becoming a cliche on here, but this is screaming ADHD to me as an education professional, and sadly I suspect that only Ritalin will enable you to get back some control (Ritalin for him that is, not for you). Don't go blaming yourself, the fact that your parenting works for the other kids is proof enough that it's not you!

The prisons are full of young men who are probably just the same as your DS but who sadly went undiagnosed and untreated. Ritalin, in the smallest possible dose to just get him a bit calmer and more focused and hopefully sleep better, will give you a fighting chance, and will also help him to get a proper education and make a life for himself in future. Good luck to you all.

I agree that he needs a proper assessment. A psychologist that has never seen him is in no position to say if he’s normal or not. What is he like at school? Is the problem that he doesn’t care or that he’s impulsive and can’t regulate himself well?

I think you need to seek out counselling for yourself. You know that if you died your children wouldn’t just get over it, they’d be deeply wounded by it and it would affect their whole lives.

Me again. Oh and you can do a bit of amateur diagnosis too. When he is calm, just have a light conversation with him about something (anything) and watch his eyes. If he can look you in the eye and maintain eye contact that's normal. The odd blink or averting of gaze is OK. However, if he really can't look you in the eye, or his gaze keeps averting over to one side and he's fidgety, that's an outward sign of the fact that his brain is not maintaining its focus, in this case on you and what you're saying. Kids who are like this don't take in anything that someone says to them after about the first 5 seconds because their brain 'zones out'. That's why they frequently fail in education despite being innately intelligent, it's the lack of focus that's the problem.

is he enrolled in any extra curricular sporting activities OP? I don’t mean having a garden & a football, but a dedicated sport.

Thank you. He's really naughty at school. Can't listen, can't concentrate, can't sit still, can't keep his hands to himself, can't keep his bum on the seat. They're getting in an assistant full time to help him actually do some work and manage his behaviour.

He maintains eye contact, if you hold his face in the right direction and say whatever you need to say quickly. He fidgets all the time though, can't sit still unless he's on a computer game thing.

@Hjgscuk

Thank you. He's really naughty at school. Can't listen, can't concentrate, can't sit still, can't keep his hands to himself, can't keep his bum on the seat. They're getting in an assistant full time to help him actually do some work and manage his behaviour.

He maintains eye contact, if you hold his face in the right direction and say whatever you need to say quickly. He fidgets all the time though, can't sit still unless he's on a computer game thing.

So this is a child who actually has some difficulties.

Not a naughty child who has no respect for your authority but a child who cannot adhere to what's expected of him in any situation.

And making him feel bad for it will make behaviour worse.

Set him targets. Small achievable ones.
If he can't stay in his bedroom at night find something like audio tapes he can listen to it help him and give him a chance to comply.
Reward him for doing so. This could be an hour screen time the following day.
Create him a space in the garden, and or a space within the house. Direct him there when he can't leave others alone. Have sensory things there.

Get him doing physical activity regularly. Perhaps every 2-3 hours he has to do a Joe Wicks workout. This really helps and is used universally in schools (brain breaks) to assist the children who cannot concentrate for hours.

I know it's easier said than done but try not to constantly nag. Praise him when he complies and have removal strategies for when he can't.

But I agree ADHD screams out from your post. And if this is the case this isn't something he can just control because it's hard on those around him. Try and imagine how he feels knowing he's annoyingly everyone permanently and he can't actually stop himself.

That sounds really tough OP, there is a great book called Mercury's Child.. order it today if you can. It will give you a plan, try hard to focus on the positives, you say he is sweet and loving.

One of my nephews was like this and they got him into sport in a big way. My BIL took him out running a few times a week and he joined sports clubs, football, rugby, cricket, swimming. Sorry op I don’t have any advice but a bit of physical exhaustion could help perhaps. It gave him confidence too.

Oh bless you hgscuck I really feel your pain. My eldest is a complete pain in the ass too. I've tried 3 times to get her diagnosed but the doctor won't unless the school are on board and she acts normal enough at school. At home she is DIFFICULT. Refuses to eat anything I cook, doesn't want to go anywhere I suggest (even fun places like Legoland) won't do anything i ask, whines on for stuff and the second I get her it, she loses interest, I've bought her a dog recently at great expense after she whinged for years for one and isn't remotely interested. She has a mean streak and is awful to me and her brother, she's great with my ex (her dad). I have her 5 nights a week and ex had her 2 nights a week. In recent months I've been at breaking point, her nastiness is just uncalled for. Lockdown with her was hell and I ended up phoning her dad and saying I'm done, you have her, if you don't she's going into care. She's been with her dad since then and I hate to say it but it's been the best few weeks I've had in years. You prepare yourself for having a kid with a disability or autism or something but never that your child is just a nasty arsehole that you can't stand to be around. No book or forum prepares you for that.

You need your child to be looked after by someone else for a while. Can you think of anyone???

He sounds like he had ADHD, have you not considered this before?

I have two sons with ADHD. Your son sounds a lot like my oldest who just turned nine. Assessment and medication made all the difference for us. My son takes Ritalin to help with his impulsivity and hyperactivity and melatonin to help him sleep at night. He’s still himself on medication but the best, happier version of himself if that makes sense?

You know he’s not just naughty and you’re not a bad Mum. He’s just a little boy whose head is a whirlwind of impulses and emotions he can’t make sense of or control. You’re exhausted from dealing with it.

My advice is to pursue an assessment. For ADHD to be diagnosed it needs to be affecting both school and home which you’re experiencing.

Look up Russell Barkley on YouTube, he’s a clinical psychologist who specializes in ADHD. If that’s what your son has then Barkley’s talks are excellent on what your son is experiencing and how to help.

Hi I think your child needs properly assessed. I don’t think your child is ‘naughty’ I think he may have a condition that makes it impossible for him to behave in a way that’s socially acceptable.
Now I’m assuming since you say your other children are ‘lovely’ that there’s no issues at home that he is reacting against? Has he always had more challenging behaviour?
I understand things seem absolutely impossible just now, but you need the right help.
You need to ask your doctor for an ASD assessment, you need to explain how desperate things are just now. Your last post op actually accurately describes a child with ASD if this is the case everyone is thinking he’s a ‘bad’ kid when actually he has something he can’t control easily. Sleep is also a huge indicator. He isn’t trying to be naughty, try keeping that in mind when your trying to deal with him.
Have you tried working with symbols (little pictures) for example they can be used for daily routines and also when you want him to do or stop doing something. A lot of children respond very well to these, he might not fully be able to process what your asking him to do or not do.
You know you can’t give up, he’s your boy and us mums never give up on our kids. Get him the help he needs.
I also find it alarming that the school is getting him a support assistant and no one has referred him to chamhs or the community doctor.

Is there someone who can take him to give you a break?
A friend went through this, she kept trying to get help and was constantly told its normal. She went through years of hell. I would keep getting him assessed until someone finds a solution.

I also agree with people above suggesting ADHD. An assessment would tell either way x

Thank you all this really helps, I'll start asking about the ADHD again. There's no issues at home, apart from this. He's always been like it. He spoke really early as a baby/toddler and when he was tiny if I said to him "that's naughty" he'd say "you're naughty" and blow a raspberry in a really annoyed way!

I asked his teacher a couple of years ago, when they'd told me about some of his behaviour if they thought this was "normal" or it could be ADHD or similar. She said she's not medical and she wouldn't know. That's when I paid for the private psych appointment. They could do ADHD assessments, they were ridiculously expensive, like 1 or 2 thousand pounds, but I would have paid it if they'd said it was likely. As they said he was just hard work I just went away with parenting tips.

The school did refer us, not him but us as a family to the family help team for problem families, because he kept telling them stuff like he hadn't had breakfast and was hungry so they had to feed him. He's never, ever gone to school without breakfast or hungry. He also used to cry at lunch and say he didn't like the school dinner when it was stuff that he likes and eats all the time, so we gave him packed lunches, and then when he'd say he hadn't had breakfast they'd give him something from his lunch. He also told them that his punishment at home is getting slapped round the face! To be fair, I have smacked his bum or the back of his hand immediately after yanking him off of his siblings, especially when hurting the toddler, but even that we (with dh) spoke about the fact that didn't actually help as a parenting strategy, and so now he gets screen time taken away, or has to stop the fun activity he's ruining, or go to his room. I bought a positive parenting course online and that's great for strategies, but it's just so relentless. He never learns. He never listens. He can't be told something without saying or doing something back.

We've followed the family help team advice, they spoke to the kids for maybe 45 minutes as well to get to see them and the dynamic but they said our strategies were pretty good generally, and gave some tips, and they've referred us on to a "lesser problem" team to close the case really.

They tried a reward chart at school but almost straight away he had an absolute meltdown all afternoon when they wouldn't give him a sticker because he'd been really naughty.

The person that said about moaning about fun stuff, he does this too. He just ruins every fun thing for everyone every time moaning or being naughty. He asks questions just so he can complain whatever the answer. Even if you say yes, it's not good enough or soon enough. We head out to take them bowling, picnic whatever he cries, doesn't want to go, can't manage to put his own velcro/slip on shoes on, at all or on the right feet. It's just sucked all the joy out of life.

To be fair he has improved quite a lot since lockdown, because we're not asking him to do anything, certainly not in a hurry. If he needs to put school shoes on, you've got 10 minutes or so. In lockdown, I'll ask him so many times to put pants on and clean his teeth and eventually it'll get done each day! He does have sensory issues too.

hi again

There's also a thing nowadays called Oppositional Defiance Disorder or something like that. Also have a look at PDA - Pathological Demand Avoidance. People with this find the ordinary demands of life very difficult to cope with, and in school/childhood this manifests itself as oppositional behaviour, meltdowns etc as a sub-conscious strategy to avoid demands being made upon the DC. The way it seems to work is that, if distracted by dealing with the bad behaviour, the adult will remove the demand - clean your room, sit still, whatever, and once the demand is removed then all is well again. Problem of course is that a DC on whom no demands are ever made will grow up unable to function in adult life. The DC is usually unaware that this is a 'strategy' at all, because the red mist just descends as soon as any demand is made upon them and they literally lose control of themselves. A 'demand' can be something as simple as 'something I don't want to do'. When you see cases in the papers of a kid hitting a teacher etc it's usually a DC with PDA or similar. 99.99% of DCs would never dream of doing this, sadly it's the 0.01% who get the press attention.

The labels/acronyms are useful, if confusing at first, because if you can pinpoint the exact combination of behaviours then it's more likely that an accurate diagnosis and appropriate help can be given. Keep scrapping and don't be fobbed off. Point out to the school that he is currently taking up a disproportionate amount of staff time, which is bad for the other kids and expensive, and that it'd actually be better/cheaper for them to support you in getting the help that he clearly needs. The key word here is 'statement'. If a DC is 'Statemented' (i.e. has a Statement of Special Needs with all the usual jargon, acronyms etc) then this unlocks govt funding for extra help. Trouble is that (a) its a complex process and schools are reluctant to spend the time (Educational Psychologists and SENCO will be involved here) and (b) it's a finite pot of money, and therefore even with a Statement you can wait a long time for help. Statements are important because later on you can get extra time in GCSE exams etc if he has one.

Finally, if my hunches are correct and if he is literally unable to control himself, therefore punishments or withdrawal of privileges are unlikely to work, however tempting it may be. In schools they have a Time Out room and they use this to handle meltdowns so that a kid who has lost control will cause less damage to other people. Of course, they have to actually get the kid to the Time Out room first, which is often an adventure in itself!