Kids unhappy about going to their dads 3 years on

[DocusDiplo]

Please can someone advise.
I separated from DD11 and DS9s dad 3 or four ago.

The kids absolutely hated going to his every fortnight. I kept it up due to pressure from him, and advice on here that he should see them and I should plaster on a smile for their sake.

I've done this for a few years but it's the same each fortnight. Occasionally they will go without moaning. But I'm so tired of the complaints and moaning from them. They say they miss me, get nightmares etc etc.

What do I do???

We don't see eye to eye on parenting. He says they need to shut up and put up with it and i shouldn't pander to their emotional manipulation.

He pays the minimum maintenance and there is no formal order, just an arrangement.

Honestly, I'm really struggling and have noone to support me.

He got another woman pregnant within 6 months of leaving me. So they've had alot to get used to. He also moved an hour's drive away (so the better option of seeing him more frequently but fewer nights over is not an option).

They seem to have a nice enough time there, go to the park and beach. But still don't want to go.

Please can anyone advise???? I feel absolutely conflicted.

Thank you in advance.

I did ask the school for support with voices at the time. I was quite sure about it being due to anxiety/worry rather than medical.

Recently, I have also accessed help with emotional support for the kids so one has play therapy and one is having 6 week telephone support. It was a bit tough during lockdown especially. Their school reports are good and are well behaved for everyone (but play up for me!).

I wonder if they can talk about their anxieties around visiting their dad with their therapists?

This sounds quite tricky to get to the bottom of. Bottom line: the current setup isnt working for dc and is negatively impacting them. (Do you have a log of what happens and when? When they get nightmares etc? If not start now). So something needs to change. If it doesnt it will end with them rejecting him completely as soon as they are old enough to.

At some point xh is going to have to hear that it isnt working. So there is at least one confrontation to deal with. I think mediation would actually be a good place to start. Being in the presence of a third party might help you get your point across.

I think you will have to get some professional support on this. Could a teacher or therspist get it out of dc what is causing their feelings? Is it where they sleep, or the food they eat, is it how they are spoken to etc.

The voices could be monkey chatter which is a symptom of anxiety.

If there is no overt abuse courts just see it as different parenting styles and the dc have to go with it. My dc said "you separated from dad (because of his anger and mood swings) and don't have to see him but we do". I had no answer because it is true, children don't have a real voice.

Ex forced it to court, despite having access and inspite of the dc saying they didn't want to see him more or live with him. They spoke very strongly to the cafcass officer about their Dads anger and yet it was substantially played down in the report. The officer did advise that Ex "should see someone" but that was literally it. As the dc were old enough, secondary school age, the officer had to take their views into account so Ex dropped the case but it shocked me how focused the cafcass officers were in trying to ensure contact at all costs. I know this because I now have met many others women who have gone through similar. It wasn't right that yeara ago contact with Dads was lost but I think it has now swung too far the other way.

He's just come to talk and it was a disaster. Kids were there too. Daughter now wants to go fortnightly but also says she doesn't know and doesn't want to decide. A fucking disaster all round and a rotten scenario in any case. I am so angry at his stubbornness. I hate not being able to fix it and your story is terrifying @Techway.

What was said to him and how did he react?

He just listened to the kids, told them why he wants boundaries but then wanted to take them back to his or sit in his car. I started freaking out and called a neighbour to come and help.

He says he wants them for that period of time so he can parent them and he likes having them overnight and not just be a visitor.

He then started saying really inappropriate things in front of the children (ie. Saying I say I want to kill myself, which is true but not something I say to the kids obvs. Also that I overshare and my DD then feels responsible for my happiness which is absolutely NOT true and there is no evidence for this at all).

My daughter feels stuck in the middle I think. She says she wants to go back to EOW so he is happy and she can see why he wants them fortnightly.

Later, then she said she wasn't sure and just was tearful.

Basically he won't budge on the fortnightly. My worry is that she is giving into him when theyve both consistently told me for Years they don't want to go very very often time. They're anxious about it which is the Only reason I'm trying to speak up for them. I don't mind the routine as long as they're happy.

I'm also a bit pissed off about his claims to parenting. He often tells me I should be stricter, do this, do that but he is just talking from a perspective when he seems them for 4 days a month on the weekend. He hasn't got any actual experience of parenting and definitely not as a single parent juggling alot.

So essentially I think the kids will go along with the every other weekend to keep him happy but honestly I feel so so so terrible dropping them off listening to them saying they don't want to go, telling me I don't listen to them, when they'll be back , it's really unbearable and I'm really upset in the evening as I can't protect them.

I feel like "Mumsnet" is now going to say it's all my problem too. I really feel like he is bullying us all into a system that works for him.

Why are you listening to him?
Why don't you tell him to STFU?
Id tell him the next time he criticised me would be the last time I accepted a message from him.
Stop taking the kids to him, he moved away so he should do the pick up.I
Stop engaging in this nonsense.

I think this is too big of a thing to ask your dd to decide. Of course the poor girl is conflicted, and someone else needs to decide. If you stopped contact, would he go to court to get a contact order? That might actually be the best thing. Take it out of both of your hands.

DD was 11 when she decided she wasnt going to her dad's anymore. I tried, we talked, she still refused. Every time I brought the subject up she got upset. Child comes first. Your DD needs time and space. He's an adult he can shut up and wait rather than pressuring her. As an adult he should understand that. I agree with @emilybrontescorsett

Why do YOU have to take the kids to HIM? He's the one who moved away so he should come get them and drop them back to you if he wants contact. Period. My bet is that he'll quickly lose interest.

Your daughter is having nightmares and hearing voices. That's alarming.

Please don't rule out abuse, either sexual or emotional. You really don't know what happens there but your children are TELLING you it's so bad that they don't want to go anymore. It sounds so bad that they are unwilling to fully verbalize it due to shame or fear.

Please be the rock solid mom they can rely on to go whatever distance is necessary to help them. See a soliciter and get your daughter to a psychiatrist. Your children cannot help themselves, they need you to be their advocate.

Get angry at your ex. Eff him! It almost sounds like you're afraid of him.

I know how hard it is and that you feel like you cannot cope for one more minute. My husband walked out on us (4 kids) and I had to raise them alone. For ten solid years I wanted to run away. (And a few times i hired a babysitter for a weekend and went to a hotel by myself). But I didn't run because I couldn't. I saw a therapist and a psychiatrist and got on meds for depression and anxiety so I was better able to cope and I went to parenting classes.

You sound like a wonderful mother. I know you can do this.

I am maybe later to the party here but same happened with my DD 3 years ago when she was 13 and it all came to a head and she refused to visit at all

This is the thread and it got a lot of good advice

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3966506-DIVORCE-14yo-girl-doesnt-want-to-see-her-Father

My DD now has a much better RS with her DF now she isn’t forced into anything
I have a great RS with her but he is jealous of it and does still think I pander to her. Yeah maybe I do. She’s my lovely child, I want her to be happy because I love her and want her to grow up happy. Sadly he doesn’t make her very happy and that’s not hers or my fault (he makes DD17 happier)

I empathize with you OP. Lots of similarities in our situations.
I think you should see a lawyer and ask how you would go about changing/stopping contact.
The father of your kids is controlling and I know how easy it is to feel exhausted and down-trodden by it but try not to give up fighting for the best life for your kids.

Thank you, everyone, I'm going to reply later as at work now. Thank you so much, I feel so alone dealing with it and constantly am.questioning whether what I'm doing is right. It's such a tricky position to be in!

The ridiculous thing is they don't want to stop seeing him and I'm very happy to facilitate contact and whatnot. It's just the specifities of the days and times and manner that he's digging his heels in over. Absurd!

My son(12) no longer stays at his dads as doesn't like his gf,so his dad comes over at the weekend and takes him for a walk or goes for a pizza.
Son is much happier.
Yes it's harder for me in the sense I get little free time and no weekends to date but son was getting distressed so he had to come first.
Good luck

I feel too weak to deal with this. I can't cope with it.

@DocusDiplo

I feel too weak to deal with this. I can't cope with it.

Aw sweetie. Don't say that. You can do it.

If the kids don't want to go so often just tell him no. He can't force them. Maybe they'd like to go once a month.

If he carry's on they'll refuse to go at all.

Take a deep breath and put it out of your mind for a few days.

Just remember nothing is set in stone here. The kids can do whatever they want

I will just say that my kids spoke to the judge at 8&9. They haven't seen their dad since they were 9&10. It's possible for the kids choices to be taken I to account at a younger age. My kids were abused by their Dad though.

The way courts are I explained to my kids that when they decided that they'd had enough I'd support them to the hilt but I couldn't make the decision for them. It's unwinnable any other way. It has to be a decision that they are firm about. If they are wishywashy they will lose.

Reading this thread increasingly puzzled. Why all the confusion and debate about "why" they don't want to go? I would have thought it's quite obviously because he's an abusive bully? Of course they're unhappy and anxious.

He was abusive (coercive control) when you were in a relationship with him, he is still abusive/controlling now, and he's using the same tactics on the children. Hardly surprising she was hearing voices, that's not unusual as a reaction to trauma.

He then started saying really inappropriate things in front of the children (ie. Saying I say I want to kill myself

He is abusing them. This is abuse. Of course she's now saying she will go! How can you possibly be in any doubt that she is doing what he wants rather than what she wants? What child wants to feel responsible for her parent killing himself?

He has done a right number on you that you don't feel able to protect your children from him and don't trust your judgement.

This is so horrific to read I could cry. He threatened to kill himself if his children didn't agree to continue being bullied/abused by him.

Have you spoken to Women's Aid at any point? Because if not, now seems a good time.

What about the Freedom Programme?

I don't know if this would be any use to you, but when my oldest used to struggle at her dad's, I set up her iPad so she could text me if anything was on her mind while she was away. It definitely made her feel more secure that she was able to privately contact me if needed, and she was then able to get things off her mind and continue with her weekend.

She actually still sends me messages when she's upset or finds things difficult to talk about, even when she's upstairs in the same house.

My parents split when I was 9. I loved my dad very much but I didn’t feel comfortable sleeping in his new house with his girlfriend there, even though she was very friendly. She didn’t have kids and wasn’t maternal, so was very different to what I was used to. But very lovely, very nice to me, I just felt awkward though. I was happy to go for the day but not overnight.

My mum was quite spiteful and her/my Nan would grill me after visits. Ask about the girlfriend and say mean things about her. That made me uncomfortable as she was very nice. It was awful being in the middle.

And then one day my mum gleefully told my dad I didn’t want to stay overnight. He didn’t believe her as I was very close to my dad. She demanded he wake me up and ask me. My dad refused and said he wasn’t putting me on the spot like that and it wasn’t fair. Thank god!!!

I can vividly remember the feelings of wanting to keep both parents happy, and not wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings. I wasn’t close to my mum at all and liked spending time with my dad instead, but I wanted the familiarity of my own home. It’s a huge emotional toll for children caught in the middle and it’s so hard to stand up and say how you feel, knowing it will upset a parent. Children just don’t have enough emotional maturity to be able to handle it easily, especially when nothing terrible has happened.

I would put my foot down and offer day visits only for now. You can try overnights again if the day visits go well. Personally I would go out of my way to make this possible, because this is the emotional health of your children in jeopardy here. They are relying on you to be their voice. You need to be reasonable but tough.

Wallywabbles

How did the kids manage to present in a way that the courts valued?

Sorry this is long. We are in France but the court system is similar particularly family court.

Ours was a very very long journey. With 5 court visits over 9 years. We had a lot of emails, testimony from doctors, psychologists, the police - we reported everything every time etc. Over time I learnt good habits from MN about gathering evidence.

The final straw for the kids was on his birthday he got very drunk which always lead to verbal abuse. He shouted at them for 2 1/2 hours with them standing up. They'd thought his gf would call the police. She didn't she just blocked the phone so they couldn't.

They saw their psychologist who said we needed to escalate. We asked for an emergency court date and got it. I said the kids wanted to be heard. Another emergency date for them a week later with a court appointed lawyer. They went in individually with their lawyer. Spoke to the judge. The youngest refused to let the judge write anything down. The eldest was incredibly brave and agreed to have written testimony.

About 6 months previously he'd threatened to beat them with a coat hanger or belt while holding them by their hair which we'd duly reported.

He'd also threatened by phone to kill me (drunk again) which I'd recorded by pure chance. This recording had been heard in a previous court visit. He'd brought it up in court saying I'd made it up, like a piece of theatre and got friends to record it. The judge asked his permission to hear it. He said yes.

So there was a lot of back story. And clear evidence of abuse. He'd accused his step father of molesting the kids when they were very small - which was judged as untrue. His mum went to court to get visitation rights which lead to a social worker enquiry. The kids told the sw that daddy drank champagne for breakfast! Not true but their interpretation.

The courts awarded him visitation rights in a centre for 2 hours every other Sunday. After the 3 months court ordered time the girls asked for a break. DD2 new it was permanent and DD1 needed the time to get their herself. She just wanted to please her dad.

Reading through some of the material on the out of the fog website really helped her.

We had one final court visit 2 years later which the new school forced on us as he refused to sign the school paperwork. The kids again saw a judge. Both gave testimony. They knew a lot was riding on and took it very seriously. And he lost parental responsibility. In those 2 years they'd not seen him. It's now 5 years on. They're doing pretty well.

@OhioOhioOhio - sorry I don't know what the kids said exactly as I was never with them. It was just them, lawyer and judge. We discussed what the judge would think important. What they wanted to get across etc. But I knew it had to be their words not mine. If you want my eldest would be happy to tell you exactly. She's planning on being a lawyer!