Old friends of my partners and their kids

[DaddyTony]

So my partner and I have been having this discussion which almost always ends in arguments over one of her friends and their kids. They have two kids aged 9 and 4, and we have 3 kids aged 8, 5 and 2. We used to see them maybe 2-3 times a year and because they live so far away we would stay with them or they with us over a weekend. We haven't seen them recently because I've put a stop to it. This is causing quite a strain on our relationship and she and I think I'm being very controlling about this and I know I am being but let me list the reasons:

• Their kids are very unpleasant to our kids; they push them, they do not share with them, they call them names, they mock them when they are not able to do things they are able to do (the eldest is a whizz on the WII but when our eldest plays with him - even though he never plays on the WII, he says he is a loser and terrible at playing).
• We have enjoyed some parts of our weekends with them but on the whole we both find it a bit of a struggle. I think that a good chunk of that though is us both trying to be people we aren't. My partner is extremely polite, friendly and sociable, she hates disagreements and conflict. She will very much over compensate for me in these situations because I wear my feelings on my sleeve, if something or someone has annoyed me, I will show that and make it generally known that is how I feel. So quite often I spend a lot of effort trying not to show it and failing sometimes and my partner will spend a lot of effort over-compensating for my demeaner.
• The father is very much the disciplinarian in their relationship and often shouts awfully at the boy (eldest), but the daughter (youngest) is very much their golden child, even though more often than not, she is an instigator of trouble. She has delibrately pushed over our youngest knocking him into a table, she has slapped our middle child hard across the face for what reason no-one could work out, she will take toys that our kids are playing with and then throw tantrums when we try to take them off her again. Their parents will half heartedly back us up but then will almost immediately offer chocolate or sweets to console her. The boy is told to stand in a naughty corner or told to sit quietly for 10 mins or so, so the treatment is very, very different between children.
• The boy is a bully, no other word for him really. I've seen him push our eldest's head into a fence as a joke, I've seen him push and shove and steal toys.

The issue is that I want to cease seeing this couple because of this toxicity with our children, but my partner cannot express this to them and she has known them for a couple of years before we even met so I feel like I'm being a very controlling person in this regard, but the parent in me feels like I want to protect the kids from this behaviour that they don't need to have - there is absolutely no reason for them to experience this just so we can visit or have a visit from their parents. The mother of the other couple though is very chatty on whatsapp with my partner and she always buys our kids birthday presents and Christmas presents and my partner also does for their kids. After the last visit I said to my partner we (myself and the boys) are not seeing them again. We'd had such an awful time and the boys were very much mistreated again I had had enough. It has been a few years since then and now the mother is pestering my partner for another visit and my partner is asking if she and the boys can go and meet them halfway at a park and I am saying no, just as I always have since the last time we saw them. I am not saying my partner cannot go, she can go and visit them if she likes but I've said no to myself and the boys.

I feel like a bully myself and very controlling in this but I do feel I'm doing it to protect the kids. I'm really struggling to work out what the right thing to do is. It is causing us to fall out and putting quite a strain on our relationship. Any advice or help would be appreciated.

Not sure it's the same as DH and I were on the same page but a similar situation:

One of my oldest and dearest friends. But... her kids, who are older than mine, were always nightmares. She had very odd attitudes to discipline etc. Before we had children, we'd just roll our eyes and spend the drive home commenting on things while accepting that we didn't have children so what did we know. Then we had DS. The first time we visited with him, he was about 5 months. We'd taken one of those little portable seat/hammock things with us. Her youngest was fascinated with him but had NO Idea how to behave and kept being very rough. At first, we waited for parents to step in. They didn't. Then we tried to step in gently. Eventually, we made our excuses and left.

Over the next couple of years, when we did see them all together there was more of this and/or we'd be gobsmacked by her DC's rudeness.

Eventually, we just quietly decided we wouldn't subject our DC to this. Made suggestions like, "Oh, it would be lovely to catch up but let's do it without the kids so we can do it properly" and would meet for dinner or whatever. They lived far away but we could organise an evening if we both travelled into London. Often, meeting would just be me and her.

The few events at which we had to have children, we offered our children tools - eg they were allowed to bring their iPads and just play their own games. Or DH and I would take turns to hang out with our DC and play with them.

Now, her kids are late teens and actually, they're still a bit annoying but are actually fine. Last time we saw them they were actually lovely with DS and he had a wonderful time being entertained by "the big boys".

Can you do any version of the above? Sorry it's so long. It's just I feel your pain. I still shudder at the evening I spent with her and her DC when I was pregnant with DD.

Why not suggest your partner and friend have a city break/ spa break by themselves? It gives them a bit of quality adult time and a bit of a treat and takes the tension with the kids away?

Hi OP. I really feel for you, because I completely agree that we shouldn’t put our children in the position of being bullied and mistreated to serve our own social lives. I’ve been in a similar position, although it has sorted itself out now. Do I understand that you haven’t seen this family for a few years now? I ask, because children do grow up and families change. It’s entirely possible that the dynamic between the children could have improved by now. Would you be willing to give it one more chance? The park idea sounds great- neutral territory, you can leave whenever you like. You could make it clear to your partner that, if it goes badly, this is the last time you’ll be seeing them.

In terms of you being controlling, as long as your partner is free to see them on her own, I don’t see how that can be so. You’re making a parenting decision, to protect your children. If she wants to see them on her own, I assume that’s fine with you?

You mention it's been a few years since the last visit. It might be worth meeting halfway in a park like your wife has suggested - in the time since you last saw them, their children may have changed a bit? Might be worth comprising and giving it a chance this time, on the understanding between you and your wife that if they haven't changed, this will be the last time you're prepared to socialise with them.

You need to protect your kids from their kids. I think it's right for you to do this. Much better to meet up kid-free instead, if you want to meet up.

We have friends who had kids like that (they're a bit more civilised now they're older) and in the end we just avoided occasions when their kids would have to meet our kids. I don't think we were the only ones who had that policy with that family, either.

Thank you all so much for your responses, I have read them all out to my partner and there have been some very good suggestions in there and I think we will give some of them a go for sure. I like the idea of adult only meetings, and my partner is on board with this too however, I'm not sure how they'd feel about that. I fear that a meeting with the children would then be inevitable however. But it might also be an acceptable agreement and compromise to say if it did go south again I would just write them a message to explain that we no longer wish to socialise with them and explain why, if it were possible to politely do so, and cease the relationship there.

To answer some questions though, I have always said that I would never stop my partner visiting them on her own and have said she is always free to make any arrangements to see them on her own. The issue is that they always want to include kids, which makes sense, but I just feel very strongly against this.

Ask the boys if they want to go, if they do let them, if not stand firm with your partner that she will have to go alone.

@Delbelleber I thought about that and my partner has suggested that and the with our 8 year old we can do that, I have reservations because he is very diplomatic - he will tell you your food tastes great even if it's cooked to being charcoal! But I am willing to agree to let him decide.

With our 5 and 2 year old I feel that we, as parents, should make "a responsible decision based on their best interests" and with that in mind and considering these are the youngest and less able to defend themselves I feel like my decision for them would of course be no. My argument would be that they don't get any enjoyment out of it so why put them through it? Would any of us want to taken somewhere where we would get pushed around, called names and have our stuff yanked off us? Not very likely.

But it might also be an acceptable agreement and compromise to say if it did go south again I would just write them a message to explain that we no longer wish to socialise with them and explain why, if it were possible to politely do so, and cease the relationship there.

See, I don’t think there’s any need to do this at all. The way I would handle it would be to leave it unsaid, and then the next time they ask to meet up, say something like “It would be lovely to see you. But the children are at tricky ages, aren’t they? Let’s meet just adults for the moment. Are you free to xxx on xxx date?”

IMO, there’s no need to tell someone their children are hateful (even though some are, and it can be very tempting!) That’s the fastest way to lose a long friendship, and I’m not surprised your partner might feel that aspect of your behaviour is controlling...

@DramaDromedary that's a fair point and I think we should avoid that as much as possible. But there will come a point where it just becomes unavoidable that we will have to mix with our children to avoid being rude and if it all goes south again, what can I do to prevent it again then? If it goes south again, it will have been like the 5th time then and like I've already said in the past, I've had enough.

If you say ceasing the relationship is too controlling, what can I do to make it clear that the kids can't mix again to the other parents without losing their friendship and avoid being controlling?

If I had to write the message to them explaining that our kids would not socialise with theirs I would be very polite, and I would if possible keep the relationship, but only as "adults only". However, it is very unlikely any parent would not be offended and upset by that and would very likely end the relationship themselves.

"IMO, there’s no need to tell someone their children are hateful"
I am a little offended you think I would actually say that! I did say "and explain why, if it were possible to politely do so". If it were not possible to politely say it, then I probably would be forced to give no reason, though I do think that's bad, it's not as bad as telling them "I don't like the way their children behave around ours".

UPDATE: So we asked our two eldest children, 8 year old says he wants to see them, but I do suspect it has been so long since that he has likely forgotten how he was treated, but that is my opinion and not fact and he is old enough to be a little resilient and defend himself if necessary.

The 5 year old said he does not want to go. I said that the 5 year old and the 2 year old could stay at home with me and this has sparked another argument. She is now saying I don't trust her to protect our 2 year old with them .

She has read the replies I have put here (apart from this one and the last one) so she knows how I feel about making the decision for the 2 year old but she states that she would look after them. My issue isn't her looking after them, it is responding to issues of mistreatment (okay sounds over the top but being shoved/slapped on purpose is just that in my book). On previous occasions she hasn't and I have restrained myself out of politeness but I won't anymore. I've said we should all go then but now she thinks I don't trust her to go alone with the kids.

I think she also worries that I'll be showing my demeaner of not trusting her kids around our kids all afternoon and will be very blunt if they do something to our kids - which is almost certain though I will go absolutely out of my way to be as polite as possible with them.

I do feel however that I am being forced to wait for our kids to be shoved, slapped or called something horrible AGAIN just so that it is fresh enough to justify feeling the way I am and doing what I am trying to do - protect the kids.

Perhaps I am being overprotective and controlling - should I give in this one time and see what happens (it is just a visit to a park after all) or stick to my guns and say only the eldest only goes with her or we all go? I really am so torn and it is causing such problems between us...

Once again, thank you all for your replies, I do very much appreciate them and I do think they are helping us try to resolve this

You do sound rather controlling and as though you are micromanaging this and your wife somewhat!

Personally I’d expect my husband to come with me, shut up and just be polite for two hours. I’m sure you can bite your tongue at work so you can bite your tongue while socialising.

The children and their dynamic will change vastly over a year or two.

If you meet every couple of years then you’ll only have to meet up a few times before the kids are teenagers and won’t be there anyway. In the course of a lifetime it’s worth that for a long friendship that could last you into your old age.

I think their family dynamic sounds toxic and damaging. I feel the parents are borderline emotionally abusing the children.
The boy seems like he is the family scapegoat and the daughter is the golden child. I’m not surprised either is acting they way they are. It’s very sad for them both but it’s not your children’s place to be their emotional punch bags.
I wouldn’t be wanting to spend time with them and if I was your wife I would be considering my friendship or wondering if the mum is also on the receiving end of this treatment and might need support.

I don't think it sounds controlling at all to not want your young kids to be hit and pushed about. Nor does it sound like micro-managing to be concerned about your partner's past track record of not challenging poor behaviour, when it's resulted in your kids being hurt or bullied.

I wouldn't be happy if my partner hadn't trusted me to look after our kids and refused to let me take them places. You said it has been a few years and they are just suggesting a couple of hours in a park.

I would trust your partner and let her give it a go.

Something seems a bit off here 🤔

@WearyandBleary Thank you for your reply and I do appreciate you thinking about and responing to my issue. I do suspect you may be right and perhaps I should take heed on some of your advice.

However, and please believe me, I'm not trying to light a fire here, but:

"Personally I’d expect my husband to come with me, shut up and just be polite for two hours" - this doesn't sound controlling to you? I'm not controlling my partner here, I'm saying she can go as often as she likes, I'm just very uncomfortable with her taking the kids to meet them and if she does want to go, now I'm saying I'd like to go too.

"I’m sure you can bite your tongue at work so you can bite your tongue while socialising" absolutely! I can and will and I have...but not at the expense of my child getting slapped in the face or pushed over...I do hope you see my point here and understand this?

"The children and their dynamic will change vastly over a year or two." Yes, this is an excellent point and I totally agree with it and is definitely an argument for giving it another shot.

"If you meet every couple of years" I'm happy for that, not sure how my partner would feel about that and I don't think the other parents would be too happy about that though. They do message my partner frequently about meeting up. The only reason we've been able to go this long is because of lockdown and before that I think they had family issues.

I will definitely talk this over with my partner and I apologise if I have offended you with my replies to your comments, though I do feel (well, hope) you are mis-reading my personality a little. I hope I am not being controlling and micro-managing my partner though I hear your words and will take that on board.

OP,
You have made your point very clearly to your partner.

I definitely couldn't sit around a see my children hurt, pushed and name called by a friends child, as they looked on.

I'm astonished any parent would do that.

I think you should agree to meet up one last time at the park, whilst making it clear to your wife that if you see your children being hurt, you will intervene and say something like.."oh your children must be tired as they aren't playing nicely.. best we head back"...and pack up and head off.

Agree this with your partner.

It IS reasonable to insist that YOU will leave if you see the children being treated badly and it not being addressed.

I think that is a compromise.

It is NOT your responsibility to make the friendship work at the expense of your children.

All the compromises seem to be expected by your family.

That your children take a bashing for the entertainment of these people's children being the price of their company.........

Screw that.

Your partner should be thinking of her children more and her friendship a bit less.

The friends may need to be told that "we like ye, but it is stressful watching the children being pushed and shoved and upset, it spoils the get together"

Your partner needs to step up IMO.

Me and my kids wouldn't be going. Partner is a little too conciliatory to be relied upon to keep the children safe from harm.

Partner would be more than welcome to go see them for themselves, and to decide for themselves what they said.

I think it's controlling to expect your partner and children to 'come with me, shut up and just be polite for two hours'. Are you supposed to shut up and be polite when their kid shoves your kid's head in the fence yet again? Or is it then permissible for your children to cry in pain and fear, and you to have the temerity to show that you're a tad annoyed about this?

@WearyandBleary

You do sound rather controlling and as though you are micromanaging this and your wife somewhat!

Personally I’d expect my husband to come with me, shut up and just be polite for two hours. I’m sure you can bite your tongue at work so you can bite your tongue while socialising.

The children and their dynamic will change vastly over a year or two.

If you meet every couple of years then you’ll only have to meet up a few times before the kids are teenagers and won’t be there anyway. In the course of a lifetime it’s worth that for a long friendship that could last you into your old age.

Did you even read the OP. The kids don't play nicely. Would you "bite your tongue at work" if an adult came over and slapped another adult or pushed them over? I'm the last one of a friendship group to stop socialising with a couples child because she is vile and not parented. Last time we met the 6yo deliberately threw a football at my 4yo face and knocked him backward onto some rocks. She looked to see her parents reactions who were completely oblivious 6ft away. She has also pushed my dc off the top of a slide before while staring right at me. Meanwhile their other child was tipping all the toy boxes out inside the house and stomping on toys. Dad hears one of the crashes, sees said child across the room and shrugs saying 'oh that must have fallen out by itself'. Dh was speechless. I wouldnt subject the 8yo to that. He probably only said yes to be nice and hasn't really thought through that those kids are awful. He will remember playing tag or whatever and will have dismissed the horrible behavior as one of those things. He won't recognise the pattern of behavior until he is a bit older and wonder why you allowed him to agree to seeing them again and again Your wife needs to accept an adult only time for a few years i think. Wouldnt it be nice for her to go visit on her own and she can go out with her friend one to one.

I want to apologise for something I said that I would like to correct in my previous post:

"My issue isn't her looking after them, it is responding to issues of mistreatment (okay sounds over the top but being shoved/slapped on purpose is just that in my book). On previous occasions she hasn't and I have restrained myself out of politeness but I won't anymore."

I was incorrect in saying she didn't respond, she made it very clear she was upset with the incidents to the other parents and what I meant was she didn't respond in the way I would have but that is wholly my issue and not hers and it was completely unfair of me to infer that she did nothing.

"Me and my kids wouldn't be going. Partner is a little too conciliatory to be relied upon to keep the children safe from harm." I have NO doubts that my partner would not keep the children safe, none at all and please don't think from this that I think yours would either. She absolutely would keep them safe, and I'm sure if something bad happened she would politely make her excuses and come home.

I think my wanting to be there would be to have it out with them there if it happened and say to them that the actions are not wanted and just to get it sorted once and for all I suppose. Please don't think I'm wanting it to happen - I certainly don't and I hope that if she/we go, they have a great time together - I really do. But if it does happen, I would very much also like it to be the last time...finally...I feel we have had this same discussion many times in the past and this time it has boiled over because I'm being a little bit more stubborn about it.

My partner is very upset with me now. She very much feels like I am being controlling and I really don't want to upset her further. I want to thank you all deeply for your opinions and suggestions, they have been very helpful.

Please don't think bad of my partner or myself, we are all just trying to do the best job we can without a handbook on the right way of being a parent. I do trust her 100% and I know without a shadow of a doubt, she is a much better parent than I am in many, many ways. This post was really just trying to find alternative solutions that would go some way to appeasing both of us and I thank you all for those.

I don’t blame you for wanting to protect your children, but if it is several years since you last saw the others, they must have been very young indeed. You said the youngest child, aged 4, was the trouble maker. How old was she when you last saw her? Just one or two if it was several years ago - unless I’ve misunderstood. She might be a very different child now she’s not a toddler. Likewise the older child, maybe he’s grown up a bit? I don’t think you will know unless you do see them again - with strict boundaries in place if they misbehave around your kids. If they are the same, I think you’re being perfectly reasonable suggesting wife just meets her friend on a 1-1 basis with no kids in future.

@TheMandalorian Thank you for your post but that is just awful! I'm glad you resolved it and I'm certain even with what happened it was not an easy decision to make. I do think there is a point you get to where you just have to make that decision though. Perhaps only one of us is there right now and I have to wait for my partner to arrive at the same place.

I don't think the kids are evil, they just are allowed to get away with things and are not treated equally - that has to have a major affect on them. I certainly don't blame them for their behaviour and like I said, there is no handbook for parenting, all we can do is make decisions on what we think is best for our children. Unfortunately, sometimes there are disagreements and this is just one of those times.

I don't think badly of you, and my profuse apologies for having inferred from your post that your partner would be backwards in coming forwards to protect the children.

It's a very difficult situation. But your partner should surely be able to have her relationship continue with her friend without the involvement of your children and yourself if you don't feel quite so positively towards her friend? I mean - do we suddenly have to be friends with all our partner's friends, and our kids have to be friends with all their kids?

@DarklyDreamingDexterarkly Thank you, I think you are right and this is most likely my best course of action for the both of us to move past this.