A parenting question - what would you do?

[Pages]

You are the single mother of 3 dc ages 6, 5 and 4. You need to get away for a few hours and ask a neighbour to watch your DC. You go to a friend's house. The neighbour doesn't actually come into your house.

It is dark. Your 3 dc are on their own in the house. Your DS1 (age 6) hits DD (age 5) with a screwdriver. DD runs out crying and makes her way along the road in the dark to try and find her mummy. She falls over and grazes her knee. The police come by in a patrol car and pick DD up and DD tells the police where mummy's friend lives. The police arrive at your friend's house with DD in the back of the car and take you and DD home.

Who should be punished, DD or DS1?

it is your mother who is COMPLETELY in the wrong and not any of the children's faults! you sound like a much better and more caring , responsible mother than she is. Sorry if that soudns harsh. You just do not leave your children unattended and that is it.

Pages, haven't read your other thread but would just like to say that you really can't help the way your mother is. You didn't choose her, you were landed with her. Some of us get good parents, some get bad parents, sadly it's the luck of the draw. I, for one, believe that if you get a bad parent, the onus is not on you to repair that relationship. You're obviously so much better than her, cut her out of YOUR life. Don't waste time on her that could be spent on your ds's who deserve your love and attention.

the mums fault

To clarify my earlier post....it's the mother's (your mother's) fault absolutely. You do not leave children that age alone, exactly because they do things like whack each other with screwdrivers. That's what kids do. Not because they are evil, but because they are children and immature and not able to forsee consequences. And just to add, even more silly that the dd (you) were given partial blame. Even if an adult had been there (absolving the adult of guilt), the misbehavior was on the part of the ds (your brother) for doing the hitting. What an awful thing to have happen to you when you were a child. I can only think of my dd who turned 5 today and although not normally shy or cautious, is going through a phase of needing someone to be in the room with her at all times (including the bathroom)... (luckily ds will do). I can't imagine how terrified she would have been if I had left her alone and she had been hurt by her brother and ran out into the street in the dark and got picked up by policemen.
I think that you are probably wasting time and emotional energy trying to convince your mother or family that she was in the wrong. Better to put the energy into your own children and not repeating the mistakes. (I had a wonderful childhood, but my dh had a truly awful one...regularly beat to a pulp by his father... and he gets a lot of solace in knowing that he is not repeating history and instead giving his children all the love and kindness they want and need).

Thanks Sofia. I still remember to this day stumbling along the road crying in the dark, falling over in a puddle and how much my knee hurt and how much I wanted my mum. I had walked quite a long way, probably 3/4 of a mile before the police picked me up. I still remember my mum's furious face when she opened the door and friend's house and saw me with the police and how she didn't speak to me and how upset I felt to be punished on top of that.

I think people either fail to develop empathy at all and repeat the pattern of their childhoods or alternatively empathise so much with the pain of their young children that they go out of their way not to repeat it, like your DH.

My DS1 is also just 5 and I think it has dragged up some of the memories of being that age and all the other things that happened around that time (haven't told you the half of it on this thread!!)

Pages. You know the answer to your question is of course your mother was in the wrong. And reading between the lines is still firmly in the wrong. You sound so well adjusted, normal and a great mommy which is an acheivement considering!!! Don't waste to much more of your life worrying and wondering about her actions and motives. Focus thay energy on yourself and your children. You're all far more worthy of it. I understand totally how difficult that is. I really only give my mom lip service. She's done some fairly crappy stuff and I'm not quite strong enough to be cruel enough to cut her out but not quite weak enough to let her win so I let her think she's winning on some minor things where in truth I've tuned her out and am doing what I want. Good luck hon.

Thanks Misty, and all of you. I think in fact I finally realised when I met her on Tuesday that anyone who thinks it is a 5 and 6 year old's fault for what they do when left alone by a parent is not someone who can be reasoned with. I lost every last ounce of respect for her that I had ever had on that day. She has made mistakes that have caused me to suffer all my life but I could have forgiven or understood them overnight if she had just owned what had happened and lifted the burden that I have carried all my life, even a little.

Instead she continuous to live in this warped world where her ridiculous version of reality prevails whatever the cost to her relationships with her own children, and no doubt everyone in her life. I know now that this is never going to change.

I realise that now in a way that I never fully realised before and feel I have had a lucky escape because my relationships too could have been ruined if I had colluded and become like her.

My dilemma now is to decide, like some of you have, whether to have the superficial relationship and see her every now and again with the kids - for her sake really, because I know it is hard work (realised that on Tuesday) and pretty dull, to be honest. Or whether not to waste any energy at all. My life has been so peaceful and happy in the last year since I last spoke to her ir my siblings, but I think like some of you the guilt may be too strong to cut her out completely and not let her see her gc.

My dilemma now is to decide, like some of you have, whether to have the superficial relationship and see her every now and again with the kids - for her sake really, because I know it is hard work (realised that on Tuesday) and pretty dull, to be honest. Or whether not to waste any energy at all. My life has been so peaceful and happy in the last year since I last spoke to her ir my siblings, but I think like some of you the guilt may be too strong to cut her out completely and not let her see her gc".

Hi Pages,

As someone who has the superficial relationship with her own Mother (however, mine is just plain uninterested rather than toxic) I have left the door open for her but she now has to make the effort.

What do you mean you feel for her sake she needs to see her grandchildren?. No, No and thrice No!!. What exactly does she give you and your children - hardly anything from what I can gather. And she personally gives you no end of toxic parent denial (your last convo with her told you as much). Don't waste your energy on her; save that for your own children who are far more deserving.

Its not your fault that your Mum is like this; its hers and by turn that of her own parents who likely fashioned her in such a manner. Emotional toxic abuse can be generational in origin. Its taken someone actually strong enough like you to say enough and draw a line in the sand.

And as for guilt I leave you with the title of one of my favorite songs - Guilt is a useless emotion.

regards

Attila x

the parent for failing to arrange suitable childcare in the first place

but historically it probably wasn't so frowned upon so I don't really think you can take today's standards and hit your mother over the head with it

a 6 year old shouldn't hit anyone with a screwdriver of course

what I don't understand is why you can't let it go though, parents do / did unspeakable things that we can obsess about and allow to take over our lives ... Pages it doesn't matter now .. you will never get her to admit her guilt .. the more you think about it, the more your adult self will embellish, subconsciously, your memories until it is fixed there as a clear memory even if parts of it are inaccurate

I for one have vivid memories of my mother knocking me out (accidently, I fell backwards onto stairs as she was coming towards me angrily and flailing) and my father being there when I opened my eyes and mum sitting in the kitchen in shock .. my mother says it never happened

Obviously your mother's behaviour was completely unreasonable, Pages.

But, thinking about it, there's no way she's sitting there, thinking 'hmmm, I know it's not DS1's fault, or DD's fault, but I'll blame them anyway '. I'd bet money your mother was raised in a very very broken way. She doesn't mean to be horrible, she never meant to be horrible, she's doing the best she can manage, I bet.

Obviously, that doesn't mean you have to carry on seeing her, and being mistreated! But it's better (IMO) to try to have a bit of understanding, than a lot of blame. Even if you can never get the same consideration in return.

NQC I agree, but the problem is it's not just an old issue - Twiglett, if it was all in the past I would leave it there, but she still behaves in the same manner towards me and lets me take the blame for things she has done. The other thread explains it all and why those of us with these toxic parents need to stop carrying the burden for our parents' mistakes. IMO if you let somoeone else carry the blame for something you have done (and encourage the rest of the family to gang up on that person which is what has happened to me) you impose a huge burden on that person. If I collude with it and accept her behaviour I am damaging myself.

I don't know if I really do feel any guilt any more Attila. Maybe I just will see how it goes and act on the way I feel at the time if she contacts me.

The fact she's still arguing about it must be very tiring and upsetting for you. (Twiglett, your example sounds like a one-off, tbh, and it sounds like an understandable mistake ... very different beast, imo)

Twiglett, have just re-read what you wrote and I am not sure if you are saying I have remembered it wrong? That is of course what my mother is saying. She says my memory is less reliable because I was a child. She says the neighbour was watching us - but she can't explain why (if that were the case) my brother managed to get hold of a screwdriver and hit me with it and how I managed to walk out of the door into the dark night and the best part of a mile up the road without anyone stopping me. I don't even know how she knows my brother hit me - because she wouldn't tell me. But the only thing we can say for certain is that I was there when it all happened - and she wasn't. So why is her memory more reliable than mine?

I know this is a more "child-centred" society than it used to be and I often make allowances for that when I think about some of the things that happened. I am not upset that she left us - I am upset that she blamed us for her an adult's mistake. She doesn't even try to shift the blame to the neighbour - she sees it as our fault.

I am not upset that my stepdad beat the crap out of me, sexually harrass me and verbally abuse me on a daily basis for 7 years. I am upset that she sneered at me, turned her back on me and definitely never comforted me when he did it, and that when I cried she said "Here come the waterworks again". I am upset that she blamed my brother and me for it for "being difficult" and that included me for being too sexual alluring as a teenager apparently and wearing skimpy clothes.

I am upset that she has told my siblings that it never happened like that at all and we have remembered it wrong. I don't know what version of reality she has promoted to them because none of them will now talk to me.

Maybe I am the tiring one for keeping on trying to talk about this but if you were in my position would you be happy with everyone thinking you were a liar? Because that is what they are all calling me.

And I am upset that when I said I loved and missed my dad she told me "You never loved him, you were afraid of him". (Errr, no, that was what SHE felt). Do you wonder why I have to ask other people's opinions about reality?

Btw my older brother remembers everything exactly as I do.

Sorry if I sound angry, please don't take it personally anyone, but I am so fed up of being told that black is white and being the one in the wrong every time.

And btw it is not the case that I have been bleating on about this for years. I have spend almost my whole life not discussing it or occasionally telling my mum that the past is the past and it wasn't that bad.

It is only when something happened last year where I got the blame for something yet again that was my mother's fault that me and my older brother decided to tell my mother that we had had enough. It dragged the whole past up for both me and my brother and we confronted her about the way the family operates and the end result is that me and my brother are evil and my mother is a saint.

Pages, I think what you are doing, reexamining your childhood to take the side of the little girl you were instead of your mum the adult who ought to have known better, is a really good idea. Parents have a lot of power to decide that everything they did was right and that kids have to put up with it. It causes a lot of damage if they behave like that.

Someone needs to be on that little girl's side and if your Mum isn't going to do it, it's up to you.

Your mother was totally in the wrong to leave such young children on their own. It's completely unreasonable to think that children that age can take care of themselves without adult supervision.

My mum is just like yours - blames me for the ways she hurt me. She has no empathy whatsoever, or rather she does, for herself. I've had to almost completely break off our relationship which is incredibly sad because it goes against nature not to have a relationship with your mother, but I couldn't take being abused by her any more.

God, Pages. It sounds awful. There's no way kids that age are responsible for the situation. The adults are. Every time. There is no debate. Kids don't know any better. Adults are there to teach them the way!

I think it's really important to be able to say, "I made a mistake. I'm so sorry." But your mum is not able to do this. I wonder why. Perhaps she feels it's a weakness. Perhaps she feels attacked.

My mum is the same - her view of our childhood is v. different to mine! But my upbringing was nothing as stressful or traumatic as yours.

How about you show her this thread? Or tell her you're not angry with her. What are her views on stories in the media about kids being left alone e.g. Madeleine McCann? Sorry to bring that up but it could make for an opening up to discussion.

I hope you reach some resolution within yourself.

honestly I think I'm probably out of my depth on this one. I didn't mean any offence by my post and I don't know your full history.

I hope you are seeing someone who can help you through this all though.. no matter how badly other people have acted, even those who are supposed to be on our side, we need to be able to leave it behind and face the future. Sometimes we need help to do this, and that is not a bad thing. I sincerely hope you are getting some.

Pages, could I recommend that you not put any more energy into trying to change your mother's mind. I really think that it's unlikely to happen and therefore a waste of time. I think that occasional visits to your mother should be done not for her sake, but for your children's sake. I think that it is more informative for children to occasionally see a not so great grandparent (or other close relative) and realize eventually that they aren't so great, rather than just be told that "we don't see that person because they are awful" and then the child ends up having the possibility of creating a different vision of the person than reality (either making them into someone better or someone worse).

Ditch your mother. She's a nightmare.

Counselling can be helpful - sorry, haven't read whole thread so don't know if you've tried this. I saw a counsellor when I got sick of carting round a whole load of emotions to do with my father. It really helped - my sisters still get very worked up by him (and I sympathise) but he no longer has any power to really hurt me.

tyot op, the mother. Why did she leave the house before the neighbour got there?

No offence taken, Twiglett, in fact I feel better for having got that off my chest!!

I had eight months of counselling when the whole thing kicked off last year, and still have one off sessions as and when I need them. It has been invaluable. I guess I still need to do some work on trusting my own judgement!! On the other hand if I just concluded I was right every time without looking at anyone else's pov then I would be my mother, so a little self-doubt I guess is no bad thing...

Oh, pointydog, not sure why the neighbour wasn't there - I didn't even know anyone was supopsed to have been watching us. I know this wasn't the only time she left us alone anyway, she has even admitted that she did to me in the past, and justified it by saying it wasn't for too long, so I don't know why she is even arguing the toss over this particular occasion.

All she needed to say was "I was a single mum having a crap time and I just had to get away, I am so sorry that you went through such a frightening experience" and she would have got my full understanding, acceptance and support then, now, and forevermore.

Winky, if I showed her this thread she would stomp off again and say I had twisted things to you (but wouldn't elaborate on that). She would feel huge sorrow for the McCann family but would insist the neighbour was watching us and would not see any bearing on her situation.

She has made it clear she is too old and frail to discuss it any further and I can't be bothered because I don't respect anything that comes out of her mouth anymore.

It's time to move on... as you say concentrate on my own family now. Sofia, interesting point and if she was openly and obviously abusive I would agree but she would be very nice to DS1, probably. It's just whether I can cope with the meetings.

The mother....she shouldn't have left them.