Am I being abused?

[goatscape]

I have NC for this. Sorry if this is a post that keeps getting done over and over again. I've been on mumsnet about a year and am trying to educate myself but I don't know if I am paranoid or now healed enough to smell a rat.
Without giving the whole loooooong story I will try to summarise, again apologies if this comes across as blunt.
I am no contact with my entire family for the last 3 years due to therapy uncovering that I had been emotionally abused throughout my life by my narcissist mother and bullied by golden child sibling. This has been a long, painful journey but I am a lot more aware of toxic/abusive behaviour now.
I can recognise an awful lot of narcissistic partners/friends from my past and things are starting to make sense to me. I have had awful self esteem, always the scapegoat in multiple situations.
Put up with a lot of crap that I wouldn't dream of inflicting in others. People always seem to think I'm fair game for abuse.
My problem now is that I think my partner is a covert narcissist, just like my mother. BUT. Due to my upbringing and being drawn to toxic types a lot in the past I'm not sure if I'm just paranoid and that some of these behaviours are perfectly normal and I'm just on red alert for any little slight.. could anyone give an impartial opinion? I know it's likely I am with an emotional abuser as I don't know any other type of relationship.
Where I am struggling is because he's a wonderful father, he is a great provider, he lets me do as I please ( no jealousy ) he is faithful ( apparently according to mutual friends. I never ask, people just always seem to want to tell me what a loyal guy he is ) he doesn't lump all the housework on me, does his fair share, very hardworking.
BUT. He doesn't show affection. He talks to me differently in front of his friends, almost like he wants to show them he's the boss. If I do something really good he can't praise me. He seems to want to bring me down if I do something good. For example once he was hungover and completely useless for a whole day, instead of moaning or nagging him I just took care of the kids, made him all his hangover snacks and stroked his pathetic hungover head all evening. Gave myself a few girlfriend points for that! The next day he came home and started moaning about one of the kids eating a packet of crisps and how I shouldn't be feeding them crap ( to put this in perspective they don't eat crap on a regular basis ) and that I shouldn't be eating it either. All the while munching his way through a packet of hobnobs. He wouldn't let it go either, almost like he wanted me to accept I was bad? It was like he was annoyed with me for being such a good sport the day before when he really didn't deserve it. I was expecting him to come home with his tail between his legs and a bit of appreciation!
This happens a lot. I notice a pattern of me doing something good and him having to dampen my parade. Like he doesn't want me to shine.
He also calls me negative a lot at the moment, which I'm really not, I'm probably a bit too "all will be well just keep going" but he just throws it in to arguments with no basis. This has started ringing alarm bells as it's what my mother used to say to me if I ever expressed a worry or concern.
On top of these covert "keeping the woman down" behaviours...
He will also do certain things that wind me up over and over again. He will ring and tell me he will be home in 30 mins, but be 45. Every time. There is no traffic at the moment so he can't blame that. He knows I am a stickler for timings, especially at the moment with lockdown being a very long day being stuck at home with young children. But it's almost like he does it so he can come home to an unhinged woman... so he can tell me I'm overreacting.
He won't socialise with my friends. He can't say he loves me. He is still like a 17 year old with his friends even though he is 40. I have to negotiate with him to spend time with us and even on days he has off to be a family day he always has to be doing a job or I need to be doing a job it's like we aren't ever allowed a rest.

I have a gut feeling something is not right but I can't put my finger on it.
I just feel so emotionally exhausted second guessing every little thing.

@goatscape

I really can’t say if it’s abuse or not and wouldn’t dare when I’m not qualified and am only hearing an extremely limited version of one side of the story.

I understand you’re feeling frustrated but I would just say a few things to try to help you.

Firstly, no-one in any relationship behaves perfectly and people’s flaws are always more obvious in relationships.

You seem to be guessing at his motives. Do you really think he’s 15 minutes late to annoy you on purpose or is he crap with timing or afraid to tell you he’s running late as he knows you’re a stickler?

The hangover story, unfortunately, is likely to be Familiar to a lot of us. Could he be taking you for granted?

How do you know you’re not negative sometimes? I know I am. Have you asked him why he thinks that?

I would really suggest talking to him about this. I wouldn’t recommend accusing him of abuse but enquire as to why he says or does certain things when you’re in a calm loving place. If it doesn’t come from a calm loving place he’ll Just get defensive as most people would.

Good luck.

He sounds a bit of a dick tbh but just because someone isn't a perfect boyfriend doesn't mean it's abuse. Are you a bit of a doormat do you think (I'd have asked how he was with his hangover and then let him get on with it) - perhaps stand up for yourself a bit more? Good luck.

Thank you both for your responses. It was more to get a bit of advice from people that have come from emotionally abusive families ending up with similar types of partner. The abuse is so covert unless you have experienced it you won't understand it.
I guess my post can't clearly outline the little things that go on that are invisible to most people.
The being late thing tends to happen when he knows I'm having a bad day, he will phone me in the car on his way home so he knows how long he will be and it happens regularly enough for me to start seeing a pattern emerging.
I can be negative at times, of course. But the times he accuses me of being negative are so far off the mark it's laughable. It's almost gaslighting.
Unfortunately I can't have a calm conversation with him as he just twists everything I say, promises to try and then never does.

Fair enough OP

I’d say individual therapy is your best bet.

If he always puts you down and undermines your happiness, then it's emotionally abusive. It sounds like he would have preferred you to give him a hard time for being hungover, like he prefers you angry/stressed.

Maybe has a narrative in his head of the nagging ball and chain. If you can't have a straight conversation with him without it getting twisted round on you, you've got nothing. You're cast as the enemy.

Hi OP

I'm not sure if ita abuse or not. People can just be negative and some people only feel good when they think other people are feeling bad. But whether he is or not, you cant change how he acts. You have to decide whether you're ok with the way he is or not. There would be nothing wrong with you walking away because you feel like he is bringing you down, whether that is his intention or not, whether its abuse or just his personality type being incompatible with yours, you are the one that's got to deal with how he makes you feel. You don't have to get absolute proof that he is abusive, for you to justify walking away if you think you would be happier without him.

For what it's worth it sounds like he isnt a nice person and is not that invested in the relationship, if he doesnt want you to shine. He cant be a wonderful father if you pretty much have to force him to spend time with his own children, they will be able to tell if he would rather actually be with his friends than the child(ren). A great dad doesnt pick at the mother of his children for giving them the odd bag of crisps while stuffing their face with biscuits. A good partner doesnt find constant fault with his partner. An invested partner does want to spend time with them and help them feel good about themselves. And while it's hard for us to say why he is acting like this, I do think it shows that you have had a difficult family background when you think good points are not being jealous, not cheating on you and doing his share of housework - for most people in a healthy relationship I'd say those were a given

Thanks again for the responses. I don't know how to tag...
category I do feel like he must prefer me angry. Almost like a control thing. He is a great guy to strangers, his friends and he is a really great hands on dad. He just doesn't seem to act like I deserve the same respect as everyone else.
Oohthestats my concern is that I have no idea what a healthy relationship should be. My parents are alcoholics and there was always shouting, storming out, silent treatment then big shiny gifts when they made up so I didn't have great role models.
Thank you for reminding me that I don't need a reason or validation.
I certainly don't feel safe or loved which I'm guessing should be the foundation of a healthy relationship.

OP I can really relate to everything you have written (difficult childhood, lots of toxic relationships, people pleasing etc.) and have also been trying to heal from narcissistic abuse.

What I have learned is that it can be very difficult to explain covert abuse to other people, especially when the abuser can always use plausible deniability (e.g. he can blame being late on traffic etc.). This is also a form of gaslighting you into thinking that you are the unreasonable one for being pissed off he was 15 minutes late (but you know he is doing this regularly to keep you on edge). Looking for patterns in his behaviour will tell you alot more about what is going on rather than individual examples of shitty behaviour.

It seems your instincts are telling you that something is wrong with this relationship which is something you should never ignore. The result of being constantly gaslit is you being unable to trust yourself and your own reality.

Have a look at little shamen videos on YouTube and also Lisa Romano. I have found them to be excellent resources in my own recovery. I watched this one today and it really resonated with me and made some good points about abusive patterns

Marge thank you so much for your reply! Yes it's crazy making and when I try to explain what's going on to friends they just look at me like I'm nuts.
It's small things. Patterns of behaviour when linked together cause me great distress.
I've been trying to convince myself for years that he's not a narcissist ( since I learned what one was ) but the behaviour is so so similar to that of my mother and I didn't realise what was going on with her for decades.
I will check out the video, thank you. The recovery process is a long one I'm finding and very very painful. I would be scared to ever meet another partner as I do seem to be drawn to emotionally abusive people.

@goatscape - yes, I get it. Been there. Got the t shirt. Planning on getting out.
If your gut tells you it’s wrong, then it is. It’s very hard to explain to others as many incidents are minuscule, but they add up over the days and weeks. If you’re vulnerable to this in the first place, then this is perhaps not the relationship for you.

I'd talk to your therapist. As other posters have said, there's nothing there to say 1 way or the other.

The therapist has to help you define what is healthy annoying behaviour. My own mother learnt what depression was and then pretty much everyone was diagnosed by her as depressed... We apply what we learn to our surroundings and a professional will help you decide on your husband.

Sounds a bit like my dh op except for the putting down in public. I think the defining point is can you tell him to belt up or fuck off with a giggle about him being silly or a pain in the arse. If so it's not abuse if not because you fear the response it probably is.

Re the lateness my dh is a shocker. I soon learnt that 8 means 8.45 or 9 and just adjusted.
U

OP, I’m amazed that so many PPs are minimising his behaviour. It’s very telling that all the ones taking your concern seriously are women who have experience of narcissism and gaslighting.
Read your own posts back. You don’t feel loved, you feel manipulated and continually put in the wrong, he doesn’t want to spend time with your friends, and this supposedly wonderful father figure avoids time with the kids by busying himself with jobs.
Your gut is ringing alarm bells and waving red flags. You wouldn’t be posting on here if everything was fine.
You know yourself that your childhood means you are drawn to emotionally abusive narcissists - recognise what us happening here.
I think you need therapy - solo - it is never recommended to have couples counselling with an abuser, they just manipulate the therapist to justify themselves.
You need to not only recognise what is going on (you practically have already), you need help to break your behaviour pattern and seek healthier relationships in future. Good luck OP.

Thank you vretz and ohtheroses. I definitely wouldn't think because someone's time keeping was bad that it was abusive behaviour.
It's that it only tends to happen when I'm having a bad day. He seems to want to get a reaction out of me. To give another example, he doesn't seem to like it when I've had a good day. On the days he comes home to a sparkling house, happy well fed kids, home cooked meal. You can see the expression on his face that he is peeved that I seem to be doing ok considering what's been going on. He doesn't seem happy if I'm happy if that makes sense?
I've been reading up on baiting & provoking and it's all ringing true. It's the pattern of behaviour I am used to with my mother. I was just trying to ignore the signs for the sake of my children. I don't want to break up their family, I also don't want them growing up in dysfunction like I did.
Babdoc, thank you. It's very hard to explain and even harder to understand unless you have experienced covert abuse first hand.
I've been having therapy for years to get over my childhood. It had stopped last year but I will start back up once lockdown is over. I don't ever get time to myself at the moment and although I could arrange a Skype appointment it would only be when he's in the house which isn't ideal.
I think I have a very scary road ahead. If I leave, I have no family support. Just a few good friends but no one that could put us up/ help out in a financial emergency.

He just sounds like an unpleasant, boring man Op. You don't seem happy with this life. You don't have to stay. Life is too short to be stuck in a bad relationship.

It is possible that being late when you're having a bad day is because he really doesn't fancy walking straight into your bad day/mood. And if I knew somebody was already in a bad mood and would have a go about how long it took me to get back 'because there's no traffic' (have you actually been out and seen how many cars there are? Where I am, it's only reduced to a good day on rush hour, it's certainly not freeflowing or back to 1970s levels), I'd want to take a little while to compose myself and breathe deeply before going in. And, after psyching myself up to expect that, walking into something different could be an 'Oh' moment.

However, the other things you talk about don't sound right. Maybe the dynamics are changing as a result of your therapy, maybe he's a bit of a knob, maybe he's still reacting to you in the way that worked well when you were still as you were, maybe he is abusive.

I don't think there's enough to tell from here - but perhaps if you continue therapy with a view less to your abuse and bullying in the past but more with how you navigate current relationships, that would be valuable for you deciding what is going on, what you want and what you don't want?

Keep a diary of it, how he makes you feel and factually what happens. Read it back with a therapist.

If there is abusive behaviour, then you will see the pattern. What you do about it is another question...
There are a few on MN who condemn every man, however a log enables you to challenge him with evidence. It goes 1 of 2 ways, either he acknowledges and seeks to understand why he behaves in that manner to change, which can take time (fight or flight) to process, or you end up leaving him for your own MH. You'll find quite a few jump to LTB without giving the former an opportunity

Restarting therapy is an excellent move, OP. Especially if you already know and trust the therapist.
It can be very hard, and need a lot of support, to recognise your pattern and break free from it. It may be wise to give yourself a period free from any relationships, while you regain equilibrium and explore your own needs, before risking dating again.
My own mother was a toxic narcissist. My poor sister never managed to break free, and had a string of failed and abusive husbands throughout her life. She is now in her 70’s. Please don’t follow that road - you need to believe that you deserve better, that a partner should love, respect and value you every bit as much as you do them.
God bless, and my best wishes for your happiness.

Hi OP

A couple of things stand out to me. You speak of being "good" and use an example of mothering/caring for him when he was hungover.
Why do you think that is good behaviour? Why does swallowing your valid feelings of frustration at having an incapacitated partner qualify as good? Why is putting his needs above yours good?
Then when he doesn't show any appreciation for your bending over backwards for him you are aggrieved. Does that make it more likely that you will over accommodate him the next time in the hope that this time he will acknowledge how "good" you are? Do you see how chasing his approval is futile?

The second thing I want to point out is this:

He can't say he loves me.

This is very sad. You deserve someone who wants to tell you and the world how much you mean to him.

Ginger that's exactly what I do. I beg & plead for attention and approval all the time with him. As I was the "bad" child growing up ( I really wasn't this was just my mother's narrative ) and my sibling was the "good" child I have always had to go above and beyond in trying to get people to be kind to me. I am a desperate people pleaser and I am trying to get out of that mindset but it's been ingrained in me my entire life.
The love thing has always bothered me. Other people tell me it's just words and that he must show he loves me in other ways. But I couldn't tell you what ways they are.
It's a very dysfunctional dance we do. He behaves badly, I go overboard trying to show him how "good" I am in forgiving & forgetting, he ignores my efforts/projects his bad behaviour on to me, I feel bad about myself and think I really must be undeserving of love.
Think I've answered my own question.

OP, you're the expert on your own relationship. I really suggest you either get back into therapy or continue with therapy as it sounds as though you were making great strides.

People don't respect doormats and running around after someone who drank themselves into that state, is doormat behaviour. Let him sort out his own hangover snacks.

Pick him up on his inconsiderate and hypocritical behaviour. What were you saying or doing when he was munching on biscuits and lecturing you on bad food? Did you say, 'Excuse me but you're hardly one to talk. Come back to me when you can practice what you preach.' Or did you just stand there?

Being bought up by abusers means that your boundaries are either skewed or non existent. As you become healthier, you start to notice bad behaviour that you didn't notice before. You start to notice when someone is disrespecting you.

Likewise, you don't need someone to validate you and call you a good girl when you do something for them, that's needy. You need to start validating yourself and that comes from healthy self esteem.

Don't be a martyr simmering in passive aggressive resentment. Do something for someone because you want to, not because you want validation or brownie points. You chose to run around after him when he was hungover.

Are you negative? When does he say it? He could be a. saying it because you are a bit of a Debbie Downer or b. because he doesn't want to be criticised. Think back to when he says it and if it's b he wants you to shut up and stop criticising him.

The 15 minute thing sounds like passive aggression.

Get back into therapy OP. Discuss all this with a therapist who can reflect it back to you.

Start to work on your boundaries. Pick him up on when he's being inconsiderate or rude to you.

Stop being a martyr and expecting praise for things you choose to do and work on your self esteem so you aren't looking for outside validation.

You'll soon find out if it's toxic behaviour or if he's just inconsiderate. If he's doing it on purpose, he'll push back and escalate. If he's inconsiderate, he'll try to change his behaviour because he cares about you.

12345 you are so right. That was hard to read but i do need to address my needy behaviour. The bad girl/good girl thing is something that goes round and round my head on a cycle. I do have a strong desire to be told I'm good. But it's not healthy and I don't need that validation. I understand that needs to come from within.
I think I just beg for any form of affection from him. I get very little and it seems as time goes on I have to work harder and harder for it.
I even started encouraging him to go out drinking at one point as I knew if he was hungover the next day he would spend the day with us as he would be too tired to do anything else. Reading that now makes me realise how bad that is!
Babdoc I'm sorry you are another unfortunate child of a toxic narcissist, and I'm sorry your sister has had a lifetime of abuse. It sounds like you are well educated on this type of relationship so I am really very grateful for your input.