An aura of being open to unhealthy men

[VimtoCordial]

Hi Everyone.
There's been something on my mind lately. My past two significant long term relationships have been an abusive one (a marriage) and an unhealthy, possibly verging on abusive one (an engagement). Other than these two men, I've had a very short term relationship with a guy you could hardly have called a boyfriend, a string of one night stands in my early twenties, and a few dates here and there more recently.

So, what I'm wondering is this. Abusive men seem to be able to sniff out potential victims and home in on them. Does this mean that decent men can also recognise women who have this "victim" state and avoid them?

I ask because, if you discount the one night stands as they were thirty-odd years ago, other than my unhealthy relationships, I had a few single dates on OLD, and nothing else. So I just wondered if perhaps men 'know' somehow that there's something questionable about my abilities in relationships and avoid me.

I'm not currently looking for anyone right now, so it's not a case of me moaning that no one likes me. It's more of an academic question, and if there is something I can do then I can start doing it. Body language for instance.

What do you think, Mumsnetters?

It’s not that they look at you and think ah here is someone I can abuse or avoid

It is a combination of who you are finding attractive, why, and how you open up to them.

Work out what these men had in common. Work out what you chose not to see
Work out what you could have done differently
Work out what you need and want
And how you go about getting it
Or work our how you talk to people and what you could adjust

We are always learning about ourselves and reflection is good. It’s not about blame it’s about adjustment

its also a case of you sticking around after the first red flag. other people would walk away and not or up when shit.

so it's not that they can sniff out a victim, it's that the non- victims didn't put up with their shit.

this is why you cannot think of yourself as a hapless victim and the mumsnet dominant opinion is right that the first thing to do is set your boundaries. recognise abuse and walk away without a look back at first sign of arseholery.

I don't think they can sniff out vulnerability. I think it's a numbers game to them. If a woman recognises a red flag and doesn't let it slide and dumps them, they simply move on the a woman who does let it slide. It's the continuing after red flags and their 'tests' that tells them a woman is vulnerable.

I also think some women open up too soon about having been abused before. Unfortunately this tells an abuser that they have (or had) weak boundaries and the abuser can disguise red flags in promises of how they're not like that. We see lots of post from women saying a current abuser knew about their abusive ex and promised he'd never hurt them like that. It's hard to see a self proclaimed and desperately wanted knight as a potential abusers so red flags are ignore or excused.

It's shite that women can't be open as most men are decent, but the bastards leap on that past abuse like it's an invitation to a candy shop.

Yes. I think they can work out right from the beginning if you are groomable and then work on you very effectively. read Don Hennessey - How he gets into her head - lots of insights in there.

Irl I have the ability to read whether a person is suggestible. It is very obvious to me. I can tell who the vulnerable people are in a room. I don't have to try - I couldn't tell you what makes it obvious - it's just very obvious.

A smallish percentage of people have this ability off the bat. It usually has to do with having been in dangerous / abusive situations as a child. You learn how to "case the joint". You have to, otherwise you don't survive - it's something you learn through trial and error. Sometimes folk who have this ability become practiced conmen who can spot a mark easily; sometimes those people become psychologists and help people! It just depends on all sorts of factors.

Then there are people who are arseholes, and who are arseholes to all potential partners - and the women/men who accept that behaviour, just end up stuck in relationships with them. Over time, trauma bonds develop, and the relationship gets "stronger" (more difficult to break things off, abused partner gets weaker and loses self esteem).

So - in terms of avoiding these men, in your case - it's really to do with (a) knowing yourself well and (b) being extremely decisive in instantly dropping anyone who doesn't make you feel happy and safe.

How well do you know yourself? What pisses you off? What do you get angry about? What brings you joy? What bores you to tears?
When you've put up with nonsense from others, do you know what drove you to that? What are you afraid of losing when you drop a partner?
How confident are you about getting rid of someone who pisses you off?

If you know the answers to those questions, then you have the first part down. And you can start practicing telling people to get to fuck

I don't think its always about not spotting or letting red flags go, its sometimes just that the man is very skilled at getting into your head. Working out what your weak spots are etc, and then once you are hooked you are his.

(that said, I have been guilty of ignoring the most blatant red flags in the past so maybe there's something in that too) 0

ask because, if you discount the one night stands as they were thirty-odd years ago, other than my unhealthy relationships, I had a few single dates on OLD, and nothing else. So I just wondered if perhaps men 'know' somehow that there's something questionable about my abilities in relationships and avoid me.

I don't think so. A lot of people have bad luck/OLD is hard work, and they start thinking 'is it me?' but it isn't it seems to be just the way OLD goes.

I don't think decent men would be put off by a woman who's vulnerable unless she acted excessively needy etc once they were involved or something.

Abusive men can spot some of us (but again, you might just have had bad luck with your two.)

Perhaps we can change whatever-it-is that makes abusers fond of us (mind you, abusers tend to try it on with anyone, it's just that women only fall for it if they're caught at a vulnerable time.)

What we can do is, even if they approach us, make it clear we're not interested as soon as we realize what they're like, and develop the awareness of red flags etc.

Abusive men seem to be able to sniff out potential victims and home in on them.

I dont agree with this statement as it makes you appear to have no control over the situation. I was in an abusive relationship years ago. I put up with terrible behaviour and ignored many red flags. I take full responsibility for that.

At the time I had low self-esteem and I'm sure that was a massive factor as well.

If you are in relationships with abusive men and you are the common denominator it may be worth looking at yourself instead of assuming you are being specifically targeted.

I know none of my friends would have put up with what I did.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.oomm.live/the-shark-cage-metaphor-spotting-potential-abusers/amp/

Another mumsnetter shared this the other day. I think it's a pretty good explanation of how abusers find their victims.

The shark cage is exactly about spotting a red flag and saying ‘nope’ instead of hanging around to find out more red flags. So the more you strengthen your ‘cage’ the more you protect yourself

Op hasn’t come back to open up but red flags in men is one thing but red flags in you - don’t tell people your sad past or abusive relationships, they are not part of getting to know someone. They are private and personal to tell people you trust
If you don’t like something about someone don’t overlook it or go along with it

I'm tired of the way this is painted solely in a highly polarised "abuser-victim" light.

"Victims" 'seek out' "abusers" just as much as vice versa. In fact, those who find themselves in more than one consecutive abusive relationship are more empowered by looking at their childhood rather than the abuser.

This is deep patterning that was inculcated from a very young age, and it has become normalised. Which is why it is almost impossible to spot the red flags that other people see: because those 'red flags' are practically invisible; they blend into the landscape; they have been experienced so often before in many different forms that they are part of the scenery. It's only when someone who has not experienced abuse - or who has worked through abuse - screams "red flag" that there's an opportunity to see it for the first time as something that is unacceptable and not part of normal relatedness.

So, OP, look to your past before you look to the men you've been in relationships with. Look to your parents, how/if they related to each other, and how/if they related to you. Everything you need to know starts there.

I think it's fairly obvious with some women, even if they don't see it themselves tbh.
I used to be far to trusting that everybody has good intentions, i also tend to find reasons for people's behaviour, which some might say amounts to making excuses for poor behaviour. My most recent ex was abusive, but before him I had two normal relationships. I believe there are men that will see my type of personality as quite refreshing, but unfortunately my last clearly saw it as the perfect opportunity.

When I say normal, I later found out they cheated, but we're not abusive.

I definitely think abusive men can sense vulnerable women. To think otherwise is really naive

@rvby Your post has really struck a cord with me.

Sorry OP, I opened your post because I have also always been in abusive relationships so didn't feel I could help in anyway, but was interested to learn the reason.

Strangely, as rvby says, I can spot a vulnerable person a mile off. And yes, it is likely down to childhood experiences. The difference is, I want to care for these people. Probably another reason I ignore 'red flags'. So really I think these men are just 'bad'. They spot it and they exploit it, unlike others who spot it and try to help.

Googled the book a PP mentioned and it looks like it would be really helpful for both of us.

Yes but most aren’t sitting there waiting to catch a vulnerable one specially. They don’t have that level of awareness of their actions. They are just doing their idiot thing, being a twat with little self awareness and trying it on with loads of women and seeing who takes a bite. Like fishing. You don’t know what fish you will catch but you pull it out, take a look then decide whether to throw it back or not. You get to decide whether you want to be ‘caught’ or not, and by whom. Relationships and dating are not a one way street with all men abusive and all women victims

I’ve been a victim and I don’t want to be one anymore so I’m going to work hard at it

The men who have treated me the worst are those with crap or abusive or absent dads, or dads who treated their mum poorly and left. It's a common pattern among friends and their ex partners, too.

I think some are more prone to being with an abuser for many reasons. It's hard when you get sucked into the niceness and the happy hormones, so when a red flag occurs, you tend to brush it under the carpet whilst wearing your rose tinted glasses. Some people are too weak. Some people have low standards. Also, sometimes the signs are so small, you don't think anything of it. Now, if an abusive man sees you tolerating those small red flags and you're not leaving, he'll continue and you'll realise once you're too emotionally invested. It's about learning to spot those red flags really, really early and acting on it by getting rid.

I used to find it funny and endearing that my ex would make a mountain out of a mole hill over small things to do with other people. I'd often say that if a butterfly landed on his shoulder, he'd say it was starting on him. We share a child and I'm now the butterfly; it's not fun nor endearing. He used to go on and on about how crazy his ex was (I know, a classic sign) and about how glad he was to have a "normal" girlfriend, but after being with him, I think he is the reason why she went nuts in the end. I also used to be proud of myself for how relaxed I was about him going on multiple holidays with his female "best friends." He was sleeping with one of them and had an affair with the other one after our baby was born - in front of me, in our home. I don't regret having my child but boy, do I regret not running when I saw the signs.

I vow to myself to be overly picky next time. I'm not dealing with any men who have had poor male role models, either. No way. And any red flag, no matter how small, I will be sure to take seriously.

Hi everyone, thanks for your replies!

The engagement was a long time ago and I definitely had some boundaries then, so it didn't take me too long to leave. I remember being unhappy about sex and that it always had to involve some specific things he wanted and it ended up always being about them. I remember talking to him about it two or three times, and when he continued to ignore it, I dumped him. He then said he'd stop, and I remember thinking that he should have stopped when I first brought it up, not when he finally found out he couldn't ignore our conversations about it.

When I met my ex husband I was vulnerable and struggling and he did the whole lovebombing thing (I didn't know it then) and I thought he was a white knight! He soon changed and, yes, everyone is right, I ignored a huge amount of red flags!!! I think I might have ticked the box for all red flags known to humanity!

I feel I know myself quite well now, I've had quite a bit of therapy in recent years. With my ex husband, I didn't notice I wasn't being treated well mainly because I was in deep grief and it took time for it to register, then I was too emotionally exhausted to do anything about it. Then of course I believed the nonsense he told me and was so beaten down that I didn't believe I could do anything.

I think the big difference between the two men is that my ex fiance just ignored my boundaries and found out I wasn't going to put up with that, whereas my ex husband was very definitely an abuser.

I think it's worth me remembering that I did have boundaries with the first relationship and there were reasons they were a bit broken for the second. I did have a neglectful and traumatic childhood so when I was vulnerable anyway, this made me moreso.

I really appreciate everyone's replies, they've all been very insightful in various ways.

@RLEOM first part of you post is quite interesting. I have been in 3 long term relationships and the worst 2 had parents still together and no abuse. The best out of the 3 was someone whose Dad had left at an early age and the mother was abusive to him.

I am so sorry for the latter part of your post, I totally understand. I never found it endearing with my most recent ex but it was always everyone else....until it was me. I knew it was off at the time but buried it because he wasn't doing it to me and I didn't want to face it. I will also never ignore it again. I didn't like it then but it screams at me now.

As in the mother was abusive to my ex.

@VimtoCordial

Yeh this used to be me. But i get turned off by crappy behavior now. Keep thinking it through. You are on the right track. You wont even need to have a dialogue with yourself when you meet someone dodgy, you will just feel cold. You will know there cant be a genuine connection. You will lose interest.

Unfortunately though, in groups, there is often a female narc who zones in on me, to ostracise me while lovebombing everybody else. The increase in my confidence means that im not stepping in to line, placing myself beneath these narcs on a hierarchy that only exists in their head. Im expected to not only see their hierarchy but respect it and place myself beneath them. They think i have done this until i defend some small boundary. A boundary that everybody else in the group would have the right to defend. But not me apparently. If i defend a boundary that causes a narcissistic injury that unleashes the narc's wrath!

My boyfriend is lovely, such a good person, but in a way, i am still attracting narcissists. In a group it is not pissible to just walk away.

But you can get to the point where you are repulsed by barc behavior i think.

Maybe that's why women who need a lot of validation who kiss up and kick down feel threatened by me and manipulate dynamics to exclude me.

It's worth noting too, to semi echo a pp, that there are folk who seek out abusive dynamics in their relationships - it's not just a case of abusers finding victims, often victims also seek out abusers (not that simple, but roughly speaking).

I've always likened love to a dance. If you parents were abusive or neglectful or manipulative, that's the "dance" that you learn as a child as regards love. Any other "music" just feels wrong and you can't move to that beat - when you meet a nice person you get the ick - when someone thinks well of you, you think they're stupid. You can't dance with them. You don't really know how, it's just all wrong.

Whereas you meet someone who's a bit like your shit parents and it's like suddenly the music is perfect. You know all the steps, it all works, you don't have to think about it. The dance starts up and it's hard to stop because it feels right, somehow.

It takes a long time to discipline yourself not to dance with those people. And a longer time to try out some different dances, with different people. If you're lucky, in time you learn a different dance and it feels almost natural and life starts to improve...

But you kind of spend the rest of your life being v v careful about the kind of music you're listening to, the little dance steps you can't help doing and have to be vigilant about. Asking yourself if something feels right, or actually is right. Etc. It's not easy, it's a hard road.

Ultimately the goal is to teach the best possible dance to your kids - or, not to have kids I suppose. I am giving the former a go.

Check out The Gift of Fear. He explains how abuses use tactics to sniff out potential targets. Insightful. He also had a difficult childhood.

Abusers*