How to best navigate going NC?

[MrsDuggee]

Hi all

I’ll try keep this brief-ish as I don’t want to ramble but don’t want to drip feed either!

I’m trying to navigate going NC with my DH’s emotionally abusive father.

He abused him as a child and at any given opportunity as an adult.

Over the 20 years I have been with DH, any contact with FIL has triggered a downward spiral for DH (low self esteem, depression, anxiety, and addiction issues).

My MIL divorced him long ago when DH was small, MIL hates him.

SIL has a very very close relationship with him, she is possibly the ‘golden child’ and often guilt trips and gaslights DH about the lack of relationship with their father. For example, referring to it as simply a bad relationship, thus placing equal responsibility between the two.

She is a lovely and very loving person and I don’t think for a second that she does this on purpose, she genuinely thinks she is helping but I believe that can be part of the golden child situation with abusive parents. I’m aware that golden children can suffer in a different way.

MIL gets involved to try to persuade us to see FIL, even though she detests him, to make SIL happy - understandable as she’s her daughter.

Left to DH he would sacrifice his own well being and go along with contact for the sake of SIL wanting everyone to get on. I fervently believe that this is wrong, especially now we have a baby who needs safe and emotionally secure parents, and that those needs should take priority over SIL’s wants.

Even discussing FIL negatively affects DH so every time the idea of contact comes up, it chips away at him - his recovery from his alcohol addiction is going brilliantly, he’s 18 months clean and sober, but the spectre of relapse is always there for us.

We need to draw a line under it, at least for the time being. Perhaps in the future when DH has been able to get perspective and start healing, he will be able to put his own boundaries in place and the odd half hour around FIL won’t be so damaging. But at the moment, he’s still quite defenceless against the hurt, I’ve seen it time and time again. He becomes like a hurt and rejected little boy.

He’s wonderful, courageous, and resilient in every way, I don’t want to portray him as lacking backbone he just sacrifices too much of himself for the sake of other people (I believe this can be an effect of childhood abuse) and now he’d be dragging me and baby with him.

Emotional abuse hasn’t been openly acknowledged in the family apart from between me, DH and MIL. As I’ve said, mostly referred to as simply a poor relationship.

How should I gently but firmly navigate going NC? I won’t try to force DH to go NC - although I’m sure he will follow my lead - I want to tread carefully and not hurt anyone (frankly, I don’t care about vile FIL being hurt but I do care about the potential hurt to the people around him who’ve done nothing wrong) but it’s vital for the well-being of our son that we do draw a line under it and not keep making excuses not see FIL. It’s draining for me and utterly exhausting for poor DH.

Thankfully FIL lives quite a way away so at least he’s not around the corner.

That was exhausting to read OP. Do you know anything about co dependence?

You sound like your husband's therapist or caseworker walking a tightrope in order to control his moods and drinking.

If you don't want contact with his father then go low or no contact, I wouldn't have anything to do with him frankly. I think you need to keep your child away from him as well as he sounds thoroughly toxic.

In the meantime, your life sounds as though it's completely enmeshed in someone else's toxic family dynamic which shows poor boundaries on your part and signs of codependency.

Your husband is an individual person to you. If he wants to see his father, despite it having a negative affect on his mental health and alcoholism, then that's his decision. Is he is any kind of recovery programme?

I would take all this 'stuff' you are carrying around for him and dump it firmly at his feet to deal with. It's his father, it's his drinking problem and it's his mental health.

Just make your boundaries very clear: you'll leave if he relapses because you don't want to bring your child up around a drunk. If he wants to see his father that's up to him but you're not picking up the pieces and you're happy to see his sister and mother but don't want to hear anything about his father.

Then focus on your own life, your own family and your child. Your husband needs to take care of himself and his needs, you are not responsible for that. You cannot carry him and you cannot rescue him.

Alcoholics tend to be selfish and they need enablers OP. They need people to carry them and their loved ones eventually end up as their caseworkers. It's all consuming and will destroy your mental health. I would make my conditions of remaining in the relationship clear and stick to those boundaries or you'll go down with him and you can't do that for the sake of your child.

Thank you for your reply. Yes I have done lots of research on enabling and codependency, so we have very clear boundaries and I’m explicit about the consequences of any relapse. I also have contingency plans to get myself and son out quickly if relapse were to happen.
He’s in AA and I’m in AlAnon. We’re generally happy and thriving -individually and together.

I’ve never thought about it much or involved myself with it before, it’s now I have the baby to protect that I’ve reached this conclusion.

I appreciate you picking up that I could be slipping into codependency but I’m confident that that’s not happening. The above turned into a bit of a brain dump so I can see how that’s come across!
I promise I’m not preoccupied with this day to day - I’ve got a teething baby and work to keep up with so this was just me pondering while baby was asleep on me!

It’s really what to expect next if anyone has dealt with going fully NC with a manipulative abuser.
Might there be fallout? Passive aggression? Open aggression, even? trying to turn other people against me? It’s all new to me.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3786141-But-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-January-2020-onwards

Several years worth of experience and advice about going NC.

The mother and the sister are just as damaging to be honest, using your DH as a sacrifice in order to deflect the father’s anger.

Good luck.

First, it's about you and the effect on you. Yes, there will be fall out. His sister and mother will probably try and hoover you back in in order to maintain the toxic dynamic.

Toxic families are often all about 'appearances' so you going no contact means something is wrong and they don't want to look bad. They are also not used to people having boundaries as they tend to be enmeshed in each other's lives.

You have to be prepared for a bit of an onslaught from them and your husband, trying to bully you back into the status quo. When you go no contact with someone, there will be repercussions. If his sister can't see anything wrong, then you'll be the villain of the piece. They might cut you out of their lives.

Going no contact is not for the faint hearted OP.

However, your husband still gets to choose if he continues to see his dad. He has to have your back though and stand by your decision.. You have to have each other's backs.

"Dear sil, we've been putting a lot of thought into our relationship with fil. And whilst we know you have a good relatywith him and would not want anything to change that we have decided to back away. We need you to respect our decision and not to interfere or start a discussion on this with us, him or mil. We simply need some space and peace at the moment. We know you'll respect our decision"

Any back chat on the subject to be met with a dull and repetitive text such as

"We asked you to respect our decision, we wouldn't dream of interfering in your relationship with fil, please offer us the same"

Why involve the sister in law and tell her? It just creates drama.

Also there's no 'we'. I don't believe the OPs husband wants to go no contact.

The father in law doesn't live nearby and the OP simply doesn't visit him any more.

Well, he says he does want to go NC but always ends up putting SIL’s feelings first and wants to avoid causing hurt or drama. And he wants to maintain other relationships that he thinks he’d lose by cutting out FIL. I also think deep down he still hopes his dad will put things right somehow.
He actually told me that the only reason he would want contact with FIL now is to ‘rub his nose in it’ by showing FIL what a good dad he (DH) is to make him regret the way he treated him. It’s a hugely toxic situation which my son will absolutely not be involved or used in.
I don’t think he would get what he wants from FIL in any case.

Discussing it with SIL may be useful as she will try to ‘fix’ it and guilt trip us so perhaps raising it in that way could nip it in the bud. I did politely tell her to mind her own business around Christmas (‘it’s not for you to worry about SIL’, you shouldn’t feel like you’re in the middle’ sort of conversation) I think she sees herself as a lynchpin.

The enmeshment issue is massive - I didn’t want to say as it could be outing, but I don’t think I mind if it does out me really - SIL is married to FIL’s wife’s son (yes, a convoluted way of saying she’s married to their step brother) they didn’t meet until they were in their twenties so it’s not that weird but the family situation is claustrophobic, they all live close and socialise mainly with each other. I feel a bit sorry for SIL to be honest, it all feels ‘off’.

Yes, appearing to be a happy family means an awful lot to FIL. He refuses to accept any wrong doing in favour of playing the victim to garner sympathy and support.

I’m going to have to really steel myself for this aren’t I?! Obviously worth it for me and baby and DH may join me when he’s ready, but I need to prepare myself for it.

Thank you all, this is very useful.

Gosh that is complicated. Loads of fear, obligation and guilt going on. The Out of the Fog website is helpful.

Don't discuss it with the sister in law OP, that's called 'triangulation' and you'll find it in all abusive dynamics.

Your relationship with your father in law has nothing to do with your husband's sister. You don't owe her an explanation and the fact that you are considering her feelings in all this and how she'll react is ringing (narcissistic) alarm bells.

This is about you and your relationship with your father in law. This is about you not wanting your child have a relationship with an abuser.

Your husband has to find his own way through this and it will make it worse if there's any pressure on him from you.

If you want to go no contact with him, then there's no need for dramatic speeches. Just don't visit him again, don't go to family get togethers where he'll be and don't talk to him on the phone.

Explain to your husband what you're doing and why and leave it there.

If anyone brings it up such as your Appalachian in laws, then just change the subject or say you don't want to talk about it.

Thank you. I’ll look into triangulation.

I’d like to be able to just leave it, I’d hate to make any announcements or look like I’m flouncing off. The only problem is that SIL might be planning to bring FIL and family to our house for a ‘visit’. Apparently they considered ‘stopping by as they were in the area’ on Saturday. I think they might have been testing my reaction to that as a possibility. Is there a way I could make it clear that this is inappropriate without causing drama?

The last thing I want to do is put DH under any more pressure, I think he will feel some anyway, but as you say, I’ll reiterate that it’s about me and protecting the baby. His situation and feelings are his to deal with in his own time.

We're making progress here OP. You're quite right, his feeling and reactions are his to deal with.

This is a massive boundary violation from SIL and she really needs to take a gigantic step back here. She doesn't get to invite people to your house. That's just not on.

You can approach it in one of two ways. Tell her directly that you don't appreciate her inviting people to your house or indirectly, you have other plans and she should ask husband if he wants to meet his father somewhere else in the area.

Don't triangulate ie don't speak for your husband or make plans for him. He sorts out his relationship with his father and doesn't go through you. He tells his sister if he wants to meet up or not. Just deflect back to him and say you can't speak for him.

I can't believe she's organising meetings in your house!

A lot of your post resonates with me OP. It is just so draining to deal with - I wish I 'got it' 20 years ago when DH first told me the dynamics in his family were odd.

DH is LC with his dad (and mother) and I now have even less contact than that. They live locally and he has decided that the drama involved in going completely no contact just wouldn't be worth it. After years of increasing boundaries further and further...it is clear that they need to be even higher. Still.

I completely agree with not making any big statements and actively avoiding any kind of triangulation dynamics. One big step I had to make was accepting that I would almost certainly be badmouthed and blamed to some extent and I would have to accept the unfairness of that.

I would decide on some 'next step' boundaries with your DH e.g. if they turn up without an invitation then don't answer the door/if he isn't ready to go NC yet then he can arrange to meet him or them on neutral ground/never discuss FIL with SIL/MIL etc.

Wow! I’ve been down the rabbit hole of googling triangulation and narcissism. Its all falling into place. I would just be playing into the dynamic that FIL is trying to create if I allow myself to be another point in his triangulation. I will detach from that altogether. Poor DH I hope he can unpick all this one day - I won’t interfere but I do hope!

Thank you so much for your help @12345kbm. I can see I will need to apply a lot of the alanon lessons (detachment, three c’s etc.) to this situation too. I was distancing myself and making excuses but with Saturday’s near miss I thought I really need to be clear where I stand, even if it’s just resolved in my own mind.

SIL does overstep but she thinks of herself as a facilitator for ‘healing the relationships between all the people she loves’ - she said this recently. I think she’s completely clueless to how damaging her pressure is to DH. She also feels that her presence would make meeting with FIL easier for me as a kind of ‘buffer’, she doesn’t realise that she’s part of the problem. It’s hard to argue with her when she’s trying to be kind, even though it’s so misguided. Also DH is very protective of her so I have to wear kid gloves all the time, any (even very gentle) criticism of her blows up into a horrible argument (first Christmas with baby was tarnished for this reason). I distance myself from her as much as I can, tbh. I feel sorry, she’d like us to be closer but I can’t really deal with everything that comes with her.

The out of the fog website is fascinating. Thanks @Herocomplex

I like the idea of next step plans, @Adserpsus I’m quite tough and now my mind is fully made up and I feel armed (thanks to you all) I will stand firm but I need a plan for if I’m caught off guard, say they all turn up and I’m in my pyjamas at 3pm having forgotten to put my boob away from feeding! I’d be completely flummoxed. This I will discuss with DH.

From past experience I’m expecting lots of talking and eye rolling behind my back with plenty of faux sympathy and a heavy intimation that my decision is due to mental health problems. Then they’ll say that poor persecuted FIL has a ‘right to a relationship with his grandchild’. FIL will never have the backbone to speak to me directly (seems to fit the vulnerable narcissist description) so he’ll up his triangulation efforts.

Gosh, this is eye opening!

I'm glad things are becoming clearer OP, it really is like a fog lifting when you see the structures behind the puppet show.

They sound bloody awful with the eye rolling and condescension and they can take a running jump with it all. How dare they?! I'm wondering if SIL is as lovely as she makes out, sounds very passive aggressive.

With people like that, it pays to be gentle and assertive. 'Gosh, that's so very kind of you SIL, I really appreciate all your efforts and it's certainly something to think about. I know how kind you are and you're doing this from a place of love but I really have other plans for (the day you invited people to my sodding house) that day so you really need to speak to DH about all this. Gosh is that the time, I'm so tired. Talk later? Super. Bye then.'

Rinse and repeat.

Don't criticise her if she is close to her brother, never say anything about her if you can help it just make sure her and her brother are in direct communication and you are out of the triangle. They'll stop inviting you to things. I find 'vague' is an ally. It's infuriating for those on the other end but they eventually give up.

Yes, FIL is triangulating you all. You need to step out of that dynamic as it's really unhealthy. Also look into the Karpman drama triangle - persecutor/rescuer/victim. The ideal life is stepping out of that.