Is this emotional abuse?

[Thedrowners30]

DH left the family home just before Christmas. We have two small DC.

He now says that I’ve have emotionally abused him for years. I’ve asked him how and he says because when we would argue I would call him names and say nasty things. I’ll hold my hands up and admit that I have done that in arguments, but the thing is so has he! He also says it’s my own fault he left because I would tell him to leave when we argued. Again I would sometimes, but only out of frustration because he seemed so miserable living here with us. When he actually left I made it plain I didn’t want him to go.

So my question is...am I abusive? I don’t FEEL like I am but he’s insisting that I am. He came to see D.C yesterday and I got upset. He basically told me that him leaving was all I could have expected after the way I’ve gone on.

I feel so confused. He’s pretty much saying I have to change the way I am for him to come back, but there’s no real discussion of what he needs to change. He also says that I’ve controlled him for years, stopped him doing what he wants to do and stopped him being friends with people.

We’ve been through so much in the last few years. Infertility, a miscarriage on our wedding day, expensive and difficult fertility treatment. I feel like everything has been devalued and I’m just been told how bad a person I am. I don’t know what to do next

Actually having read ‘The Script’ a lot of things he says are similar, except he’s too young for a mid life crisis!

In all honesty, I usually am of the opinion that only one person can decide what does and doesn’t constitute abuse, and it isn’t the perpetrator.
However, if you can look at yourself in the mirror, and honestly say you were no worse than him, maybe it was just a toxic relationship. Verbal abuse and telling someone to leave is abusive but when it goes both ways, neither are worse than the other.
If it was behaviour which continued through to any future relationships then you need help. But only you know whether that’s likely.

That’s the thing @Ughmaybenot He sees our arguments from my side as emotionally abusive whereas I’ve never really viewed the things he’s said to me in arguments in the same context. I’ve just thought it as stuff we shouldn’t have said in the heat of an argument.

I just feel so confused. When he says it’s all
Down to me whether he comes back or not I feel like I’m having to shoulder all the responsibility and make all the amends.

Honestly feel like I’m going mad. I’ve been up since 4am thinking about it all!

To be honest, it sounds like he’s just using it as a stick to beat you with. Yes, the relationship sounds toxic but I don’t really get the impression you’re abusive.. not least because you’re so upset at the thought of being so, whilst still open to the possibility of being told you are. He sounds like a wanker to be honest, and while it might not seem that way now, you’re better off out of it.

I feel awful every time he says I’ve emotionally abused him for years. I asked him why he married me then and he said it’s because he thought I would change!

Outside of heated arguments I’ve never put him down/belittled him etc. Those are the sorts of things I always think of as emotional abuse.

I feel like he’s trying to paint me like some horrific monster and whilst I have many faults I’m sure I’m not THAT bad? But then I know more than one awful person who thinks they are really nice so maybe I’m wrong?

Hmm sounds like he's just trying to pin all of the blame for the relationship breakdown on you..personally I think telling someone they need to change without really stipulating how in order to get that person back is quite abusive behaviour. Is he going to change also, if he behaves similarly to you in rows? Agreeing to 'change' for him without the changes being a 2 way conversation enables him to dictate how you behave towards him, so anything he doesn't like, he can label as you being 'abusive' again.

If he really does behave like that too then what he's saying now sounds a bit gaslighty as well. But agree with PP that it sounds toxic overall.

Emotional abuse isn't saying nasty things when you argue. It's constant name-calling, belittling, intimidation, manipulation where one party is powerful and the other is walking on eggshells.

If you read MN enough you will see that most negative behaviour from either party can and is regularly labelled abusive within an intimate relationship.
Name calling, imo, is actually always abusive.
Telling someone to leave in the middle of an argument is just a bit pathetic if that's not what you actually want to happen but it's not abusive ( in the context you've given). However you now shouldn't be surprised that he has.
So I think you've both shown abusive behaviour when you've name called, it doesn't mean you are abusive per se

Maybe you're just not compatible. I've had a fair few arguments with DH, but we never name call or tell the other to leave.

Neither of us have the right to tell the other to leave our joint house.

It may be said in the heat of the moment, but many a true word are said in anger and jest.

If he wants to reconcile, maybe you could consider marriage counselling.

@chenilleblanket He has told me how I need to change. I need to ‘calm down’ stop being so controlling and change my attitude to my friends and family (who apparently all secretly think I’m a nightmare)

In our last discussion he said he’d already been changing for years and it was me who needed to change. Then later on he denied saying it!

I do of course accept that name calling is abusive and unacceptable.

@SandyY2K We’ve been trying Relate. It isn’t working. I had such hopes for it but it’s been a serious disappointment.

I currently feel so guilty and like the worst person in the world

All your friends and family secretly thinking you're a nightmare? Hmmmm, okay, that's a big red flag. My ex (abusive) would say this, I since found out from his sisters he spent the whole relationship making things up about me to them and doing the same to me about them so it meant there was always tension and upset in my relationship with his family. Another thing he would do was constantly try and argue and cause conflict with me. I would walk away, he would follow. He would argue for so long I'd eventually snap and shout back and he'd stand there, smile and call me abusive. Without knowing more details it's difficult to see if he's been using coercive control but as others have pointed out if you were abusive you wouldn't be so upset and devastated by what he's said. You wouldn't care or would be angry about it. I'd recommend calling the Women's aid helpline to discuss it with them. My ex did such a number on me it took months to see him for the abusive, toxic man that he was. Xxxx

Friends and family secretly believing you’re a nightmare???? That’s all part of The Script.

Be wary, OP. Perhaps start nothing things down. And tell us a bit more - have a think about incidents over the years, or thinks that have made you feel confused

Similar experience to @Alicenwonderland here, my ex also tried to manipulate me by saying my family and friends all secretly agreed with him and thought I was horrible. It's a way of trying to isolate you and stop you questioning what he's saying about you.

@isitpossibleto Yes he’ll say that they all secretly think I’m ridiculous but are too scared of me to say anything. My two best female friends are pretty tough cookies. They have no hesitation in calling me out if required)

He’ll also frequently say things and then later on deny he ever said them. It drives me mad.

He’ll frequently tell me I need to get into the real world. I’m raising two small children, do all the house admin/organising etc. I’ve helped him loads in the past with finding jobs/his CV etc. I honestly don’t know how I don’t live in the real world. It’s so insulting and makes me feel utterly unappreciated.

But I do accept that name calling is utterly unacceptable and telling him to leave was in deed pathetic. It was mostly hurt pride/feelings from him saying how unhappy he was with his life with us, but that’s no excuse.
I didn’t mean it. I honestly wanted to sort things out. I still do. I just have no idea how?

I highly recommend you read Lundy Bancroft’s ‘Why Dies He Do That’. Stop reacting to him - no matter what he throws at you remain calm and walk away. And start writing down what he does and what he says

What are most of your arguments about?

Well he's not a mind reader, so unless your friends have told him this, it's nonsense.

If he had such extra sensory powers, I would have thought he'd put them to better use.

If you've tried counselling, I'm not sure what else to suggest. The issue is that both of you have to want the marriage to work. I'm not sure that he does.

When he mentions controlling behaviour, does he give examples?
Has he given examples of how you treat your friends and family? It sounds an odd thing for him to say in relation to your family.

I've witnessed someone being horrible towards his wife and kids... I could tell they were scared of him...but his behaviour was very overt...so for your H to say this, what extreme behaviours has he witnessed?

It could also be that you feeling unappreciated has resulted in resentment towards him and some of your behaviours are subconscious.

You mention wanting to stay together? Is it to retain the family unit or because you actually love him and want to be with him?

If you didn't have children, would you still want to be with him?

Regardless of his accusations, was it for the most part a loving relationship that you felt happy in before he left?

Is there a book that mirrors the lindy Bancroft one for women who abuse men? If there is I'd say that would be a better recommendation to see if you recognise yourself in the pages and if you do, we'll then yes, you're behaviour is abusive.

Lundy says the book is for everyone. However statically it's men who are more abusive in relationships plus he has counselled abusive men so the writing leans more in that direction. He also covers same sex dynamics.
Basically, read a book and you will be able to figure out which one of you is potentially the more abusive one.
From me reading of your comments it sounds like he's the one who is goading you in the arguments gaslighting you and being manipulative by making up stuff that your family and friends say about you to keep you off balance.

@isitpossibleto I’ve been meaning to read it for a while. Even before these issues started because it sounds an interesting book. I’ve ordered a copy today

@RantyAnty @SandyY2K I would say we argue about the same depressingly common themes. Me feeling he doesn’t pull his weight with house/DC/life admin. Him feeling like I take control and he never gets any say in anything.

With regards to family/friends he hasn’t really said. I did used to have quite a volatile relationship with my parents but it’s much improved since DC came along. My parents and mutual friends may have grumbled to him about me from time to time, but then again his parents grumble about him to me. We’re all human!

I do still love him but he’s changed into a different person in the last year or so. He does have mental health issues (which he is seeking support for atm) but currently seems to feel they’ve played no part in how we got here As for the D.C. I would obviously love them to have two parents who got along and were together but at the minute I’m sad to say they are probably better off with us separated.

My counsellor doesn’t seem to think I’m abusive but of course they only have my side of the story to go on.

Been reading why does he do that and some of the traits for ‘The Victim’ definitely ring true!