When to draw the line. How do I set firm red lines for him and me.

[HGranger]

Ok. So some of you might have come across my threads before. I have had a lot of advice to leave and I'm sure I might get some more.

Our relationship issues came to a head over Christmas, and a couple of weeks ago I walked out and went to my sisters, I just couldn't take any more. We have agreed to try counselling as a last resort. I think he thinks that it will be a magic remedy and perhaps I'm not serious about ending the marriage of this doesnt work. I also think me leaving scared him shitless if I'm honest.

The counsellor was actually brilliant and told my husband he had no emotional intelligence. I felt very optimistic at the time, but of course we have tripped up since and had a couple of big arguments, where he told me straight up my daughter will grow up to hate me and I'm a narcissist (my friends have all said thats crazy and if anything I'm the opposite). He also blamed my decision to stay at home 2 days a week with my daughter is the reason for all our financial issues. This is just a brief snapshot of what he says. I am not perfect and have called him an arse and an animal.

For my own sanity (I suffer with real guilt issues and need to know I have seen this counselling through to leave this marriage with a clear conscience) however how do I set firm red lines, so that I don't end up living like this forever. I need to give the counselling a chance. I know many will say relationship counselling isn't recommended for abusive relationships, but the woman we are seeing doesn't seem to be anybody's fool. She certainly is being straight up with my husband about his issues.

Has anyone been in this position? For me the name calling is a red line and he knows it. If I give the counselling a chance, how can I be clear that I won't take that anymore? How do I set time frames for change? How do I stick to them. How do I extract myself if necessary? Any experiences would be appreciated.

For those who say just leave, it's not as simple as that. It isn't. I'm not anybody's fool. I have been with this man for 13 years. I need to know I have done enough at my end or I will have to live with the guilt forever.

Well I left and it is fairly simple at the end of the day. He says awful things about your daughter. And you. I’d feel more guilty about subjecting my child to abuse than any guilt at leaving an abuser. One year on from leaving an angry and abusive man I’d say my son has just about recovered emotionally: but not without some real trauma and pain. Go to one on one counseling. Talk about the guilt and frankly a life living with guilt about a broken relationship (and the guilt won’t stay by the way it always trickles away) is easier to bear than the guilt at subjecting a vulnerable child to abuse: and that does have a potentially lifelong consequence on the child. Get out. He sounds ghastly. Sorry you’re going through this but it sounds like you’re talking yourself out of taking any action. Protect your child.

God it's so difficult. How did you do it? How on earth do you do it? Some days are fine. I suppose it's as you say. It's almost like I know what I need to do. It's the doing it.

WA has freedom program that helps i guess.

I'd say she isn't a good counsellor or an ally to you if she is making excuses for him (no emotional intelligence - no way, he knows exactly what he's doing) and working to facilitate a woman staying in a relationship with the man who is abusing her.

OP, with the greatest of respect, why are you continually flogging a dead horse? I’m not familiar with your situation but the crooks of the matter is that you aren’t happy. The things he says about you and your DD are unforgivable and it’ll be chipping away at your self esteem, regardless of whether you realise it or not, and you’ll only understand the extent to which it has when the damage is done.

It really is true what they say, counselling with an abuser is a waste of time, and no matter how good the counsellor, it’ll make no difference, because abusers are incapable of seeing that they are in the wrong.

Honestly, my best suggestion, and this comes from a place of experience, is to ditch the couples counselling, it’s a waste of time, emotional energy and money, and instead try to seek counselling on your own. It sounds very much to me like the thing that is preventing your from leaving is not his awful behaviour, which you recognise, it’s your own issues around guilt etc. I think you would do well to concentrate on working on yourself and your own self esteem, because that is what will help you in the long run, not pissing time and money down the toilet banging your head against a brick wall with a person who isn’t capable of changing.

I’m sorry to say but it’s true, you’ll probably end up in the same place whichever path you take, but you’re at a juncture now where you can choose to start working on yourself or continue trying to get blood out of a stone with him. I’d sincenerly advise you to do the former, because when you do get to the inevitable place where you have to leave, you’ll be in a much better place mentally to deal with it.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but do think carefully. Your heart might be insistent on doing things one way, but quite often it obeys our own insecurities, not our own best interests. It has enough to do keeping us alive, so leave the heart to do what it’s there for and use your brain for the difficult stuff.

You realise as your daughter grows up, she may start to despise you for allowing her to be continually abused right? Your OH sounds like my father. Name-calling was a big part of his emotional abuse. Just leave and stop screwing up your child.

@Yeahnah2020 I understand you feel strongly about this, and I get it. My mother was an alcoholic and my father angry and abusive towards my mum. The councellor has said I have lots of issues stemming from my own childhood experiences. My whole childhood I resented them both, and thought I would never make the same mistakes. Well life has a habit of making a mockery of most things you thought as a child, and I am more able to put myself in both their shoes. And honestly it just isnt that simple. And I've already heard from my husband that my daughter will hate me, I'm feeling pretty delicate at the moment, so some compassion would be greatly appreciated. It's not just as simple as 'you will screw your child up, they will hate you'. I feel frozen and have no idea how to move. It's pretty damn terrifying.

You need to work through what you think is terrifying. If you are scared to be a lone parent then there are other solutions besides being with someone who is nasty towards you.

@LemonTT I have no idea where to start. I would be worried I was making the wrong decision, that I hadn't made enough effort, that I was in the wrong, that I wouldn't have enough money. That I wouldn't have anywhere to live.

@LemonTT that I wouldn't see my daughter every day and would have to share access.

@LemonTT that I had caused the relationship breakdown in the first place. That I owe it to my husband to try.

If he has no emotional intelligence then it will never get better. That's like trying to be an rocket scientist while having low IQ. No amount of support or effort will make it possible to succeed!

So, it cannot get better. It is impossible.

He can learn to memorise a couple of equations and carry around a thermodynamics book but when it comes to real application in real life then he will never make a rocket launch.

Work out the practicalities of leaving. Ignore the misplaced guilt and work out your exit anyway.

It's not easy to leave but it's the right thing to do.
You wont feel guilt for leaving, you'll feel happy and relieved in years to come. Because you'll have done what's best for you and your child.

The counsellor can’t be good if she’s aware he is abusive and is seeing you together.

Your wish to do everything possible to retain this relationship is misguided. Would be better to protect your DC from further damage.

What do you feel you owe your daughter? Because unlike your husband, she's your flesh and blood who you chose to bring into this world, with a commitment to love her and protect her from harm. Don't you owe it to her more to try the alternative i.e the possibility of living a better, happier life away from this man?

Yes you'll have to work out the whole contact situation - I won't pretend to be an expert in this area, I've got no experience of it, but you must know deep down that there isn't going to be a day when your husband just magically changes? This is how your life will be as infinitum unless you make the terrifying decision you know you need to make, and leave.

Agree with others that the joint counselling is a complete waste of time. Get counselling for yourself, to address the issues you have (perhaps stemming from childhood) with feeling you owe something to an abuser before you can leave him. It's a mental hurdle to overcome, but once you do things can honestly only get better.

I know it's not as easy as "just leave". I have been there. I know hearing it from others doesn't suddenly make it easy or possible. I also know you're not me.

But at a certain point you have to accept within yourself that it's the right course of action for you, and that however long you wait there will never be a perfect moment to leave where you won't feel afraid or guilty or distressed and it will just happen. That you're going to have to go through with it and ride out those feelings.

You sit with the idea of leaving and you begin making arrangements. Treat it as an experiment you don't have to carry out to start with if that makes it feel manageable to start planning. But start. Take action. Enable the possibility of leaving.

The guilt and fear and panic and grief feel like they will last forever, but they don't. Because after you leave and you have space to heal, and you've spent time recovering and processing things, and you haven't had him reinforcing his abusive lies that this is your fault and all you deserve, your feelings change.

You can accept how wrong it was that he abused you. You can learn to trust yourself. You can place the guilt back on him for abusing you. You work through the grief and start gradually building a better life.

No, it's not easy. Yes, it feels terrifying. Temporarily. It won't instantly be rainbows and unicorns after you leave, but you know that. It wouldn't be realistic to expect things to instantly be transformed. It will take time to settle and adjust.

The only thing I can offer you that helped me - and you will need to find whatever helps you within yourself - when it felt like the fear, guilt and despair were going to destroy me was to imagine myself ten years down the line if I didn't leave. If I listened to the guilt and stayed. That future was so much worse than the fear/guilt of leaving that I knew I had to find a way to force myself out that door.

Right now you're on a sinking ship, clinging onto the railings staring down at the sea. You're freezing cold, soaked through and exhausted. The only way to save yourself is to leap off the side into a life raft bobbing about in the waves below. You know that is what you need to do, everyone is calling for you to jump, but weirdly you feel safe holding onto the railings. It's a terrifying prospect to let go and leap for safety, but better than going down with the ship.

@user142745271 thank you! Deep down I think I know. It's just making the first step I suppose.

Do you think he's sat there trying to figure out how to make your relationship work?

Please understand that you cannot change a person who has no desire or incentive to change. That applies as much to you as to him. Can you change? Can you draw some boundaries FOR YOU that tell you to walk away? Because he's abused you, he's abused your daughter - where is YOUR line?

A person who loved themselves would leave. A person who wanted better for their daughter would leave. What do you need to do to be that person? Do that, and don't worry about what he is or isn't doing.