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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How to get better at arguments

53 replies

Partidgeinpeartree · 22/01/2020 12:55

My husband is much better at arguing than I am, which always results in me being the one shouting and him being smug about me "being emotional" or "not well".
I am not stupid, I know that many things he does would qualify as emotional abuse. I just need ways of handling it. I don´t want to leave right now as it is not all the time (it comes in waves) and I´d like to give my kids some more years as a family. Splitting up now is therefore really not an option.
An example. He wants something. He goes on about it day and night. I don´t want it (it concerns buying something expensive). He emails me lists of "options" but I know that if I choose the we-don´t-buy-it-option he behaves like a prick for eternity. He does this mostly when we are with other people: so we see acquaintances and he makes this sad face saying I want this so dearly but my wife is against it. She only wants to buy stuff that she likes. When my family visits I like to keep them out of our ´internal business´ but he enjoys putting me on the spot she doesn´t let me buy this. I asked him to be normal over X-mas when my family came round but instead for four days he badgered them over not closing the right doors/opening doors to often/not doing the dishes correctly/leaving the light on etc. It were all things that indeed, it would be better done differently, but with people being your guests I always feel that there needs to be some tolerance and acceptance. When his family comes over they also do a 100 things that slightly annoy me but I would feel embarrassed to make a point of every little thing. He clearly does not feel embarrassed at all. Then when I was serving X-mas dinner, which took me about 2 hours to prepare, he didn´t come to the table when asked. He was loitering in the kitchen pretending to clean something (unnecessarily). So we had 10 people waiting and he just didn´t come. I then started serving everyone and after asking him again (in vain), I served myself. He then shows us at the table asking me to serve him. I refuse as I am already eating and then he goes into a huge strop about not being served. This he continued for the next days, all the time pretending that it was my fault for causing the argument (by not serving him). He brought it up with every meal, leaving my family uncomfortable (let´s see if I get any food today, as she would serve me yesterday). I tried not to escalate the situation as we had guests, but again it left me feeling so down. If I have friends over, he will always make little comments like "oh, you have such a small car" or "oh you didn´t go to university" etc. With his friends I am always welcoming and interested. I think his comments are insults and I also think my friends perceive them as such. He thinks they are just innocent comments.
Back to the arguments: no matter how hard I try, I never get him to accept my point of view. So he comes up with his proposal again. I say I am not taking any of his options and then he says that I am unwilling to discuss anything. I know that if I do not give him his way, he will be difficult at every future outing with my kids and family. I proposed to separate our finances so he can buy it on his own, but he won´t accept that either. I know he won´t change, so I am desperately looking for some tools to help me cope.

OP posts:
OoohTheStatsDontLie · 22/01/2020 16:04

He isn't better at arguing than you, he argues unfairly to put you on the spot. Bringing things up infront of family and friends makes everyone feel awkward and he gets away with it as nobody wants to cause a scene, not because he is a better arguer. Also asking you the same question again and again isn't good at arguing, it's a tactic toddlers use to wear you down.

He isn't arguing with you, he is just ensuring he gets his own way.

I dont think its health to keep the kids with someone that deliberately ruins their christmas dinner. Why should you serve him when a. You cooked b. You arent a waiter c. You were already eating because he delayed coming to the table deliberately and d. He is an adult who can serve himself. What a pointless thing to fall out over. What do you think it is teaching your kids if you stay and put up with that?

Hepsibar · 22/01/2020 16:16

This sort of thing grinds you down, eats away at your confidence and soul.

He is as bad as someone who is physically violent because he is battering you emotionally.

Do you work? I have a good friend who has a DP who is explosive and bullying and she deals with him in work speak and this calms the thing down ... of course it is a tremendous strain and the result is detached ... the children as they've got older look at the father and ask why this and that and have become distanced too. Of course everyone should be terribly brave and leave but ... ... ...

SleepWarrior · 22/01/2020 16:28

I would start detaching emotionally until you're ready to go. Don't think of these as arguments where he wants a new xyz and you don't and it has to be hashed out, but more that he's letting you know which new thing he's going to be getting (because he's a bully) and you are now circumventing the fight about it. There's no point protesting because you're not going to be together much longer and your sanity is worth much more than the ensuing insults. He will get the 'thing' anyway because he always has. Part of the pleasure may even be that you don't want it so I would just seem not terribly bothered either way.

Use vague and un-emotional responses such as:

"Hmm, that's an interesting idea, we'll have to give it some thought"

"Yes, perhaps you're right."

"OK, if that's what you think is best then go for it"

etc etc

These are somewhat appeasing but not you tying yourself in knots to please him either. I wouldn't do what a pp advised about plain ignoring and put in earphones because that is the kind of thing may push him over the edge into a new level of abuse. This is about bideing your time safely and maintaining your sanity.

These are only temporary measures though so make sure you do leave. Someone you actually stay with needs a totally different approach where you stand up for your own needs and opinions until they take them on board and actually work together (this doesn't happen with abusive idiots though).

MintyMabel · 22/01/2020 16:32

I'd like to give my kids some more years as a family

Poor kids. They deserve better than that.

ScreamingLadySutch · 22/01/2020 16:35

Do not be afraid to take out an injunction against him.

I was advised to do this, but thought it unthinkable.

Because he was getting his way (as you describe) - it meant a mortgage on the house.

I meekly signed the papers.

I look back now on that person and think WTAF

hellsbellsmelons · 22/01/2020 16:43

Oh dear OP. I’d be PA all over his bullying abusive arse!!!

you are not well – Really? Oh dear but I feel perfectly fine, but thanks for your concern DH. Much appreciated.
I am not arguing with you because I know I am right – I’m glad you think you are right. That’s nice dear
I bring in most money so I deserve this – Yes dear, of course you do… Bless..

I wouldn't be able to help myself.
But really OP. This is a horrible relationship example to set for your DC.
Your DH is horrible. Truly horrible.
He likes to belittle everyone doesn't he?
Believe me, everyone will hate him. Everyone you know will be so so pleased and relieved when you tell them you are leaving!

Bunnylady54 · 22/01/2020 16:47

So sorry OP. I agree with pp’s, staying is not showing your DC what a healthy loving relationship is. DH emotionally & verbally abused me & the effects on DD are still there, although fading as he has changed beyond all measure ( I am aware though that this is rare & I am fortunate to have come out the other side).

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 22/01/2020 16:51

"I'd like to give my kids some more years as a family"

Your family at the moment sounds stressful and unhappy, with their father setting a terrible example and not a good role model for DC. It sounds like a harmful environment for them as well as for you.

Perhaps you should reframe it as "I'd like to give my kids some more years as a happy family" and leave him. In fact you should definitely leave him, and show your DC they don't have to live in relationships where people constantly fight and are unhappy. Do you want them to replicate this when they are adults?

Herocomplex · 22/01/2020 16:55

Families come in all shapes and sizes. Happy ones don’t contain a person who actively works to make the others feel bad about themselves.

Don’t play him at his game where he sets the rules and you always seem to lose.

Take care OP 💐

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 22/01/2020 16:58

@Partidgeinpeartree I don't know how old
Your DC are but imagine writing this in 10/20 (or however many) years time. What would you feel about your DD living like this?

My DD's husband is much better at arguing than she is, which always results in her being the one shouting and him being smug about her "being emotional" or "not well".
She is not stupid, she knows that many things he does would qualify as emotional abuse. She just needs ways of handling it. She doesn't want to leave right now as it is not all the time (it comes in waves) and she's like to give her kids some more years as a family. Splitting up now is therefore really not an option.
An example. He wants something. He goes on about it day and night. She doesn't t want it (it concerns buying something expensive). He emails her lists of "options" but she knows that if She chooses the we-don´t-buy-it-option he behaves like a prick for eternity. He does this mostly when they are with other people: so they see acquaintances and he makes this sad face saying I want this so dearly but my wife is against it. She only wants to buy stuff that she likes. When her family visits She likes to keep them out of their "internal business´ but he enjoys putting her on the spot she doesn´t let me buy this. She asked him to be normal over X-mas when her family came round but instead for four days he badgered them over not closing the right doors/opening doors to often/not doing the dishes correctly/leaving the light on etc. It were all things that indeed, it would be better done differently, but with people being your guests she feels that there needs to be some tolerance and acceptance. When his family comes over they also do a 100 things that slightly annoy her but she would feel embarrassed to make a point of every little thing. He clearly does not feel embarrassed at all. Then when she was serving X-mas dinner, which took her about 2 hours to prepare, he didn´t come to the table when asked. He was loitering in the kitchen pretending to clean something (unnecessarily). So they had 10 people waiting and he just didn´t come. She then started serving everyone and after asking him again (in vain), she served herself. He then shows us at the table asking her to serve him. She refuses as she is already eating and then he goes into a huge strop about not being served. This he continued for the next days, all the time pretending that it was her fault for causing the argument (by not serving him). He brought it up with every meal, leaving my family uncomfortable (let´s see if I get any food today, as she would serve me yesterday). She tried not to escalate the situation as they had guests, but again it left her feeling so down. If she has friends over, he will always make little comments like "oh, you have such a small car" or "oh you didn´t go to university" etc. With his friends she is always welcoming and interested. I think his comments are insults and I also think her friends perceive them as such. He thinks they are just innocent comments.
Back to the arguments: no matter how hard She tries, she never get him to accept her point of view. So he comes up with his proposal again. She says she is not taking any of his options and then he says that she is unwilling to discuss anything. She knows that if she does not give him his way, he will be difficult at every future outing with her kids and family. She proposed to separate finances so he can buy it on his own, but he won´t accept that either. She knows he won´t change, so I am desperately looking for some tools to help her cope.

Qwerty543 · 22/01/2020 16:58

A son will treat a future partner like this. A daughter will let herself be treated as you are. Neither are good options and this so called family is not worth it. He is a bullying prick.

Quartz2208 · 22/01/2020 17:05

This is a HORRIBLE environment for your children to live in. Completely and totally toxic if your solution is to argue better.

Neither of you come across well in the Christmas dinner argument why didnt you just serve him a plate? He seems like a horrible bully who wants his own way and your coping mechanism seems to be petty point scoring

Merlinite · 22/01/2020 17:27

This is financial abuse pure and simple: "he refuses to separate our finances". Narc XH did this (among 1000s of other things). Refused point blank to let me have my own bank account. I opened one anyway and he went on and on and on and on for months, begging me to close it. This is financial control, from my personal research not uncommon among men whose partner is the higher earner. He sounds massively insecure and needs to prove himself by putting you down.

Either leave him, or watch your mental health slowly being destroyed. I have taken 6 years to recover.

Be warned, if/when you do leave him, he will start wanting to control everything and anything you have in common. Please take care.

Ohyesiam · 22/01/2020 17:37

Op you say you want your kids to be around this, but it’s damaging them.
Nasty power plays are the stuff of nightmares for children, they don’t feel safe, or happy.

EstrellaPequena · 22/01/2020 17:53

I lasted 5 years with mine like this. Including the "wahhh Estrella is sooo mean, she won't let me... (insert thing of the moment here)". All similar, except I was the only earner in the house.

The next thing was always more expensive, more responsibility or more outrageous than the last and I was constantly badgered, given the silent treatment etc until I gave in just to stop the barrage. Nothing was ever enough.

I ended up on the verge of having a nervous breakdown and regularly having panic attacks. It killed absolutely any love or fondness I once held.

As I was getting my ducks in a row to end things, I uncovered an affair. "She listens to me, she thinks I deserve happiness, she thinks you're clipping my wings".
Psssht, jog on. Soooo happy for her to deal with your bonkers emotional manipulation and give me my life back. Have fun needing to concentrate on paying the bills before your mad schemes from now on!

Your kids need you to step up and show them what a healthy relationship is and isn't. This absolutely isn't one and it categorically will put them at a disadvantage later in life.

everythingbackbutyou · 22/01/2020 21:37

@EstrellaPequena ha ha, I love the phrase "Jog on" - I've started using it in my head a lot when I have to interact with my stbxdh, who I separated from at the start of November. He has started seeing someone else, and I couldn't be happier! Let her be your emotional punching bag and mirror he needs to reflect his awesomeness in order for him to survive.
@Partidgeinpeartree, my heart goes out to you - my relationship was very similar in nature to yours and broke me into little pieces that I have just started putting back together. This time last year I could only dream of leaving, and now I am on the other side.
The title of your post calls to mind a situation that occurred at my PILs a few years ago. We stopped by and xdh's mum was crying. When we asked what was wrong she said "He always wins", following an argument with fil. They are now in their 80s and still locked in this dynamic. I don't doubt for a second that fil's masochistic, entitled and bullying ways were a template to an extent for stbxh's behaviour. Like pp's have said, your partner is not arguing in an attempt to resolve issues - he just wants to remind you who is boss and get his way. Mine would always have a great reason as to why we should have the latest surround sound etc. and then bitch about 'affording it' if I wanted to buy my child a new school bag.

Partidgeinpeartree · 24/01/2020 18:17

Just an update
I have been trying to avoid the conflict the whole week. He sent some emails, indicating that it would be easier for him to accept my parents/go on my type of holiday once he has his own ‘thing’ (ie made his investment).
For some reason now he looked in my agenda and decided that a meeting I have on Monday is a meeting with my notary to talk divorce(it is not). I then get a whole load in the car about how when my parents come to his house, that he paid, that they have to respect him and do things his way. That he owns the house and is the boss in the house and can control what happens in the house (the house is in both our names, and we pay a +/- equal amount for it). And that he deserves to be served first in his house. Is this what all husbands think, ie normal? I also hate some of the things his parents do, but I wouldn’t dream of saying it, but maybe that is not normal?
In short, this was one of these moments where he showed his real thoughts again. I told him to help me art looking for a house nearby, for the kids sake. He says that I should hurry up with moving out if I do not like it anymore but he will not help me look for a house.
why can’t he see that some (painless) changes to his behaviour would make all of this unnecessary? We have everything to be happy, this is not necessary.

OP posts:
Doyoumind · 24/01/2020 18:24

He will not change. He will never see your point of view. There is no point whatsoever of expecting any of it. You have to accept this and change the way you react to him. That's the only thing you can control.

You will be so much better off in all ways without him. He sounds like my abusive ex. I still have to deal with him because of our DC but I am so happy to have the majority of the arguments and abuse out of my life.

HalloumiGus · 24/01/2020 18:26

You are never going to win with this man. Leave him before you kill him.

Wearywithteens · 24/01/2020 20:03

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Onemorecrisp · 24/01/2020 21:08

He won’t change, you will feel free when you leave with the children. He doesn’t respect you. Do it now.

Onemorecrisp · 24/01/2020 21:10

What normal person is obsessed with who “paid” for the house it’s a marriage ! He should want to impress your parents if he had any respect. He is a pig.

MorrisZapp · 24/01/2020 21:28

Imagine thinking he should be served first, what an absolute knob. He'd be ashamed for anyone outside your home to hear him spout such utter crap. He won't change, he doesn't think he's wrong.

Sicario · 24/01/2020 21:30

Your household sounds toxic and it seems he's really done a number on you. This is abuse and he is a total prick. Please look up the freedom programme and engage with it.

www.freedomprogramme.co.uk

TooLittleTooLate80 · 24/01/2020 21:36

He's not better at arguing. He's just a bully. Massive difference.