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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Are marriage and commitment still relevant in the modern age?

66 replies

MattGuy23 · 07/01/2020 21:45

Hi.

With marriage rates in decline in the Western World, as well as the rise of feminism and secularism, is marriage (or any form of legal commitment) still relevant in the 21st century? Women can now have careers, sex and children without men (at least directly) in their lives. Even men in the 21st century can now adopt or opt for surrogacy etc... Many now do. Therefore, do women and men still really need each other in the modern age? Or, if they do, are much looser, more informal types of relationship now the way to go?

I wouldn't personally say they are totally irrelevant, but I think us under 45s in particular see commitment with more caution these days (particularly men, I have to say!) I've read so many cases on here where people have been married or lived together for 10/20/30 years even and have fallen out of love or their partner has had an affair. For me, adultery is unforgivable in a relationship, but sadly I think 70%+% of both men and women do it as some point in their lives.

My parents and both sets of grandparents were both extremely happily married for 50+ years. In theory, as I grew up in an extremely loving and stable home, I shouldn't be a commitment-phobe. Unusually (especially for a young guy!) at the age of 18-20 I really wanted to get married and I was very naïve about how good relationships are, or could be (probably due to my own experiences growing up). The strange thing is that as I have got older (I am now 36) I am now much more cynical and realise that good relationships, especially nowadays (perhaps ever!), are not the norm. To commit yourself emotionally and financially to another human being seems completely nuts when the mathematical odds of you still being BOTH happy and together in 30-50 years time is vanishingly small. If/when you do split, even regardless of whether there has been an affair or not, both partners often try to take the other to the cleaners and leave them financially diminished or destitute in old age. Let's face it; whether it's your fault or not, you are effectively forced into fighting for your own future financial well-being.

That's not to say that I wouldn't ever commit or marry. It goes without saying that everyone - whether female or male - needs to think very carefully about the financial consequences of marriage and divorce before tying the knot (or signing their house/assets to their partner etc.). It's very important to always make sure you would get a good deal in the likely event that you do end up splitting. There are so many stories on here of people being left financially screwed by their partner, it's heartbreaking. Beyond helping provide for your children (obvs) you owe it to yourself to look after your financial position, particularly as you hit middle/old age.

For that reason, my parents always advised my sister and I that we should only seriously consider commitment when a prospective partner is wealthier than we are. I don't think this is snobbery at all, but simply a way of protecting financial interests in case things start to go haywire (as they mostly do). I'd hate to think of myself as poor in middle or old-aged and I am determined that this will not happen. Apart from that, I have always been quite content up until now to opt for less formalised relationships. Whether that changes, I seriously doubt (unless a wealthier woman comes along and proposes to me!)

Anyway, what do others think? Is commitment now less relevant? Do men and women still need each other for security, or is it best to 'go it alone'? Will we continue to see a gradual decline in people wanting to commit formally to each other in the coming years?

OP posts:
lazylinguist · 08/01/2020 16:54

Women can now have careers, sex and children without men (at least directly) in their lives.

Why would you assume that women want careers, sex and children more than they would want to live with a partner they love? It sounds almost as though you think women only seek out a partner in order to get money, sex and children, rather than affection and companionship.

MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 16:57

"It sounds almost as though you think women only seek out a partner in order to get money, sex and children, rather than affection and companionship."

Some do, some don't. I guess no person is the same. My point is that women now no longer need men for these things. Men are just an addition for other things (i.e. affection and companionship).

OP posts:
Forcryingoutloudwtf · 08/01/2020 16:58

You are welcome to keep your money and assets to yourself.

Might end up being a bit flat though. Life is about so much more than money.

noodlenosefraggle · 08/01/2020 17:00

I do think maybe some people arent suited to marriage that maybe in the past would have just done it because it was expected of them. Maybe they wouldn't do it now because there isn't the same pressure. My friend had a baby using a sperm donor because she was 39 and didnt have a partner, but she had spent many years trying to find the right person so it wasnt her first choice. She was also financially stable through inheritance so has been able to scale her work back. I'm interested in how you think men would have children on their own though. Widespread surrogacy? Artificial wombs or just loads of part time dads? I wonder how many men would choose to be single parents with sole responsibility for a child? Not many, I would guess.

TomPinch · 08/01/2020 17:00

I may read the Guardian too much, but it going by its pages it seems that people now have unrealistic expectations of LT relationships.

Any LT relationship, marriage or otherwise, is going to involve some crap, probably some of it serious, and also sacrificing a lot of life choices and coming to terms with it. It also means recognition that love changes over time, and this is a normal and good thing. The payoff is building a life with another person. It shouldn't be necessary to point out why this is a good thing except to a society made up of Peter Pans. Perhaps that is what we have become.

I think the modern trend for more flexible kinds of relationship will pass in time, as it has before.

madcatladyforever · 08/01/2020 17:01

Marriage and commitment are very important to me but haven't been to any of my husbands unfortunately.
Men seem more than happy just to drift from woman to woman these days and not make any effort at all.

MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 17:03

"You are welcome to keep your money and assets to yourself.

Might end up being a bit flat though. Life is about so much more than money."

I don't have a great deal of money, but what I do have I share freely with friends/family/charities.

OP posts:
MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 17:08

"I'm interested in how you think men would have children on their own though."

Adoption. Surrogacy. I don't think that most heterosexual men yearn to have children in the same way that many women do, but it is still available for those who do. Take-up rates are largely irrelevant.

OP posts:
MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 17:11

"Men seem more than happy just to drift from woman to woman these days and not make any effort at all."

I think this is undoubtedly true.

OP posts:
TomPinch · 08/01/2020 17:15

Men seem more than happy just to drift from woman to woman these days and not make any effort at all.

I really don't know if this is true. But if it's believed to be true, it would explain why people congratulate me for being married 20 years.

In my view, all DW and I have done is bear with each other satisfactorily for that time, despite our considerable imperfections. I think that's a perfectly fine outcome. Perhaps those congratulating me think (wrongly) that we've had 20 years of carefree, blissful romance.

Redwinestillfine · 08/01/2020 17:20

Not less relevant at all but they only work if entered into with eyes open and taken seriously. Most people I know are still part of long term marriages though so I accept my viewpoint may be skewed

MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 17:22

"Most people I know are still part of long term marriages though so I accept my viewpoint may be skewed"

I find most of the over 50s/60s are more likely to stick it out.

OP posts:
TomPinch · 08/01/2020 17:27

Not less relevant at all but they only work if entered into with eyes open and taken seriously

And continued with seriously. One of the biggest myths out there is that people don't change. Actually they change lots, but not in a way anyone can control.

MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 17:31

"One of the biggest myths out there is that people don't change."

I don't think people generally change that much...they merely become a different version of themselves.

OP posts:
TomPinch · 08/01/2020 17:39

I don't disagree, however, the effect on others, ie, spouses, remains profound. People get ill, they have disappointments, they have all manner of life experiences that will make them, in effect, different people. Sometimes this can be a very good thing. But when I think about how DW and I have changed since we met, I'd say we have always had a choice in how the other responds, and that will strengthen or weaken the relationship.

We now have children, assets and memories, and junking all that for some notion of freedom and authenticity honestly seems childish to me.

MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 17:45

"We now have children, assets and memories, and junking all that for some notion of freedom and authenticity honestly seems childish to me."

And me. Congrats.

OP posts:
TomPinch · 08/01/2020 18:50

Lol!

Zzzz19 · 08/01/2020 18:58

I think the drifting from woman to woman is partly true in the dating world, particularly for men who are reasonable looking, have a good profile.

Marriage wasn’t for me and I love being single but I can see why some people prefer it.

MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 19:00

@Tom,

Well, if you are both still very happy and you have been married for 20 years then it would obviously seem like madness not to keep going. Same with my parents etc. I guess I'm just never going to be like my parents.

OP posts:
PracticallySpeaking · 08/01/2020 19:04

Regarding surrogacy, would you really feel comfortable OP deliberately depriving a child of their mother especially in their earliest years and as a newborn baby? Or even as a teenager or adult?

I have such amazing memories of the closeness with my mum as a small child (I was close to my dad too but it was different). And I really needed her as a teenage girl. And now as an adult she’s my rock - there are some things I just want to call to talk to my mum about not my dad (e.g. pregnancy and childbirth).

Of course some people are salt deprived of mothers due to unfortunate circumstances, but to say that a child doesn’t need a mother is really absurd

PracticallySpeaking · 08/01/2020 19:05

Sadly not salt

MattGuy23 · 08/01/2020 19:20

"Regarding surrogacy, would you really feel comfortable OP deliberately depriving a child of their mother especially in their earliest years and as a newborn baby? Or even as a teenager or adult?"

Depends, I guess. I think you'd have to be 100% committed for it to work. I'm not going to pretend it's an ideal state of affairs but it really depends on the person IMO. I'd only do it if I 100% felt that I would be there for a baby or child 100% of the time. Anything less would be grossly unfair on the child.

I've been a carer for an elderly relative with severe dementia in the not too distant past (for several years) so I think I have many of the personality traits, patience etc. for it to work. But adoption would also work equally well for me. I think there's something extra appealing about the thought of adopting a child that needs love, so I suspect this is the route I will be most likely to take.

OP posts:
Number3or4 · 08/01/2020 19:56

Op, if you are looking to become a single mother by choice then you don’t need people on the internet to approve your choice. If you become a parent then you would need to prepare yourself for people judging you and know with confidence that you can never please everyone. You would need stand firm and know that the life of a single parent is not easy. Especially for people who love their alone time. Children require lot of attention and support, which might mean exposure to other people. You would need to help and advise them how to navigate socially. What if the child turns out to be an extrovert? Then it becomes important to mingle with other parents more often than you want as your child gets bigger circle of friends you might realise some of them are a bad influence you might need to encourage them to develop friendships with other people. If you don’t know anyone then it makes a hard situation even harder. Just saying you can’t play with child x won’t be a good long term plan.

One more thing, raising an adopted and/or fostered children is different from raising a biological children. I said raising them is different, not that one deserves more love than others. All children need love, but children in care have often been exposed to trauma which is a game changer when it comes to parenting.

category12 · 08/01/2020 20:14

Men generally get more out of marriage or having a live-in partner than women do - studies show married men are happier and live longer, while it doesn't have those benefits at all for women.

noodlenosefraggle · 08/01/2020 20:27

number3or4 The OP is a man, so wants to become a single parent by using a surrogate!