Christmas fight with DM

[DrowsyDragon]

My mum and I have a dramatic relationship. When I was very little she was beyond wonderful. I was an only child and she read every book to me, played every game, made up stories, generally made life magical. As I hit my teens, she hit both menopause and very bad time at work. Our relationship deteriorated massively. She has a fierce temper and would stand over me shouting while I cried and begged for forgiveness - I was at fault for starting some of these fights but you can only end a fight with her when she is ready, no matter how upset you are. My dad once interfered and she stormed out of the house. She was also occasionally violent during this time, throwing things, slapping me. Once choking me. I got into the habit of walking out and going to stay with my best friend.

At uni, I Developed a Depression for awhile and we were quite estranged. I also met my now husband. I never came home from uni to live, moved in with friends and then later my husband. She and he also has a rocky relationship. He’s not good at going along with an activity just because everyone else is - ie family walks, watching sport etc. She seems to really hate this and see it as rude. He’s not rude he just doesn’t join in with things he doesn’t enjoy.

Things go up and down. Sometimes we get along really well, sometimes we don’t. I have a two year old now and I’m supposed to be starting IVF for a second in the new year. They came over for Christmas. Things were so awkward. She was constantly pulling faces at how we parent dd, she doesn’t like my husband playing rough and tumble with her, she doesn’t like us letting DD feed herself or eat anywhere but at the table or that DD has a bedtime routine.

Everything came to ahead last night. DM tried to put DD to bed, failed,got upset, blamed me for letting DD have a small bit of Yule log at six. DH went up and took over and everything came out. I told her I felt judged as a parent and unsupported. she said I just use her for childcare - child care which she begged for, in many ways I’d rather DD be in nursery. She said I never take her advice, don’t respect her. She says I never take an interest in her life - we go to an exercise class twice a week and speak several times I can recite all her latest political views and fallings out with neighbours. She says I never pop around or want to go on holiday with me (true, DH refuses to because she is so rude to him). She also called DH controlling, weird, rude and suggested that I don’t undergo IVF with him but just use a sperm donor.
This morning she stormed out and left issuing some commandment to DH about “coming to see her and fixing things”. He refuses to go, I’m trying not to cry in front of DD and I just don’t know where to go from here. help.

My advice is get a new counsellor.

Ones who focus of ‘keeping families together’ tend to focus on people staying in touch with toxic people despite it being horrifically damaging to them.

You should find one who is open to cutting contact with toxic people. They don’t force you if you need to, but they aren’t judging if that’s what you want/ need

She has handed you on a plate a reason to stop her providing childcare so use it. She can still have DD for a couple of hours now and then if that works for you and she requests it.

Your priority is DH and DD. Marriage is about leaving your parents and cleaving to your spouse/partner.

She is being nasty about your DH and you are tolerating it, how would you feel if DH was doing that to you?

It sounds very difficult for you to break away

She's only good with little children because they can be easy to control. Once they are no longer malleable and don't want to be told what to do she can't handle it and has epic tantrums. She doesn't like your husband because he doesn't take her shit! Allow your daughter to be stronger by being away from her.

I see it's been suggested OP but I would look to find a new therapist, specifically one with experience dealing with family relationships and the abuse cycle.

The answer doesn't lie in trying to please your impossible DM, because you will never feel you have. The drive to be a 'good daughter' will just continue to grind you down, nothing you do or try to be is likely to work and allowing her the space to rewrite the narrative to her own agenda so that you are bad and made to feel guilty each time will make you enduringly miserable.

I would stop the childcare and reduce contact, certainly DH does not need to apologise to her fgs. What she has said is deeply unpleasant and reflects very poorly on her. I would not let her affect your relationship with your DH as ultimately, it seems she wants him out the picture so she has you and the DC to herself. It's very unhealthy and she should not be indulged.

Sounds like an absolute abusive narcissist.
You cannot manage these people.
Cut her off.
Total NC: Detach, distance, dignity

Give your DH 100% permission to bollock her on your behalf. Who gives a shit if it incites narcissistic rage - just laugh at the panto dame in her sad psycho drama. She might fuck off then to the far side of fuck.

She mentally and physically abused you as a child - she will do this to you children. Read up about Narc mothers and grandmothers.

She left you with a serious MH condition and she is now impacting your own DD directly and indirectly. Do you want your DD to have her self esteem wrecked by this woman and left with depression.

She is emotionally sabotaging you and demanding so much of your time and mental space - just to control and undermine you if you don’t tap dance to her toxic tune. This is draining you of your finite emotional energy which you need to conserve for your DD, your DH and baby no2. Don’t give it to her, don’t let her take your time or your energy - you need that for your IVF. She will sabotage that as she tries daily to sabotage your marriage.

As for your “nice” father - he has facilitated and enabled her abuse by his silence, by his placating, by his “peacemaking” - and none of this was for your benefit - it is for his own comfort. And he continues to do so.

Would your DH stand by and allow you to physically assault your DD.

Think about that.

This is a window of opportunity to slam the shutters down hard and throw say the key. Get your DH to blast her out of it.

'He’s not good at going along with an activity just because everyone else is - ie family walks, watching sport etc. She seems to really hate this and see it as rude. He’s not rude he just doesn’t join in with things he doesn’t enjoy.'

To be fair, that is a bit rude though, or at least, he could've tried harder in the past, by going along with the activities . I can see why he wouldn't want much to do with her now she has this opinion of him, though. A shame she doesn't (or they both don't?) seem the type of people to apologise and make a fresh start. I do think (not that it's easy to get an apology out of a lot of people) that she should apologie to you about what she said to you.

Stop the childcare from her now.

I usually try to see things from the other person's point of view, so rarely come out with categorical advice. But this woman should not be having your child for the day when you can afford other options.

The fact that your daughter is only with her for that day because your mother insisted, is all sorts of wrong.

My life with my mother as a child/teen was very like yours. I never let my mother be alone with my children. Fortunately she lived an hour and a half away from us and was reasonably uninterested in then, which made it easier. But no way in a million years would I have let her have them for any kind of childcare, however much she begged or insisted.

You certainly should stop her child care of your daughter effective immediately. I even go as far as saying you should go NC with your mother, and tell her she cannot see her grandchild again. Unless, she apologises and tries to behave like a decent human and stoppings trying to control and manipulate you. She doesn't sound like a healthy or stable person to even be around your DD, let alone have child care of her. I think complete NC is the only way to go really until she starts getting help for her own issues and at least acknowledges them and apologises to you.

Why is it up to you to be a better daughter? You shouldn't have to compromise yourself for your mother - your mother should be the person (apart from your DP) that you can most be yourself with. I'd hate any of my daughters to feel that they had to be someone else to please me - I love them because of who they are, not because they are my puppets.

And she was an excellent mother to you when she felt that you were giving her the adoration she deserved. Once you started to grow up and grow away from her, with ideas of your own that contradicted hers, you were no longer the perfect little girl.

Your daughter will reach that stage sooner rather than later. Your DM will treat her the same as she treated you.

Hi Dragon

re your comments to me in quotemarks:-

"I’m not sure what you mean by familial bias but my counsellor does say she focuses on restoring family bonds, is that what you mean? Do you think she might be giving bad advice cos she is focussed on that goal?"

Yes. You cannot even begin to restore familial bonds with someone as narcissistic and otherwise disordered of thinking as your mother is. Please consider now seeing another counsellor.

"My boundaries are something I’m working on. We’ve been keeping the front door locked cos she used to just let herself in and she’s very upset we’ve done that and that we don’t just drop in on her. I’ve also worked to maintain a lot more privacy about my relationship with my husband - she interprets this as him being controlling and me being unhappy".

Bundaries are a real problem for adult children of narcissists mainly because they've been encouraged not to have any. Continue to work on your boundaries; you have really been trained here since early childhood to put your own self last and to serve your mother. Narcissists too have strange ideas indeed re privacy; it is SHE who is controlling, not your DH here.

"Dad is around. I get on with him very well on his own but he is very influenced by her. Last night he just sat there while we argued. Again mum says I hold her responsible for all evil and forgive dad more."

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so always but always need a willing enabler to help them. This role is played here by your dad. He is a weak bystander of a man who has also failed you utterly by failing to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviour. He has and will continue to throw you under the bus here to save his own neck, he would rather see you as his daughter take the flak than he. He is really your secondary abuser here.

I could have written your story OP. From a great childhood to hell when I started thinking for myself. Same with DF, lovely man but he stood by and allowed her to behave like this so I had to accept he was complicit.

So so many things I could go into including her liking partners who 'put me in my place' (I divorced that controlling narc) but 10 years ago, the straw finally broke the camels back over something quite small but I realised she didn't care about me, my feelings, only where they served her, or to boost her ego by putting me down.

My life has blossomed overnight. No more stress, worry, undervaluing myself. My life has done a complete 180 and I don't regret for one second cutting off the negative abusive narcissistic arsehole that is my mother.

Hard to do, but send her a text stating she is no longer welcome in your family home or have any contact with your family at all.

She will probably send your dad to do her bidding, you need to ignore this completely. Tell him that he may choose to stand by and live with her difficult ways, but you will not.

@iswhois that is a bit chilling. The last major bust up we had I refused to engage with her so she sent my dad over to sit down and talk me around.

One of you mentioned would DH let me hit DD and the answer is long before we conceived we talked about that,I can have a bit of hot and shouty temper and I have been working (especially now she is a toddler!) on trying to discipline calmly. I apologise when I slip up and shout - if it’s from irritation. Ie “DD, I’m sorry I shouted at you, I lost my temper and that wasn’t fair. I was very annoyed you were doing x which is a problem because y but I shouldn’t shout”. I’ve read a few of the gentle parenting books and I am trying to be very clear about boundaries with DD so she has some and isn’t being shouted at.

@Interestedwoman I agree with you it wasn’t optimal behaviour from DH though we were in our very early twenties and his family is very much a do your own thing in your own space kinda family. Show up for meals and everything else is negotiated. Mine was much more of we do everything together in the same room at all times. DH is quite stubborn and has got his head down about mum but by now I can see his point. She tells me to use a sperm donor rather than have children with my husband and often “corrects” his parenting.

To all of you, thank you so much for taking time to comment. I wish I found just cutting her off easier but I will both talk to my therapist and look at other possibilities. I’m not running this time. She’s sent me two reproachful emails but I’m not engaging. She “doesn’t do apologies” in her own words so we shall see what happens. Thank you all again

@DrowsyDragon

You know what really helped me?

Years ago after she was being completely unreasonable towards me again for the 56643th time, I started to look up some of her behavior online. I found countless websites that provided information about narcissist parents. And finally a lot of things started to make sense to me. Finally I could see the pattern and could see that some parents really DO NOT have their child’s best interest at heart. I believed too long in the ‘all mums are practically saints’ myth. There’s such an enormous taboo in society to say your mum is just an evil bitch who deliberately treats you like shit though she plays nice mum to the outside world.
This taboo has always existed about stepmothers but it’s 100% sure it exists in biological mothers too and most people can not understand it. They have normal parents and can not imagine that a mother would always put her own needs first even if it’s at the cost of the wellbeing of her DC. I have told friends with normal mums about her behavior and the reaction is nearly always ‘I’m sure she didn’t mean to be like this’. Yeah I would like to believe that as well and I lied to myself about it for years but after reading about narcissism, I couldn’t fool myself anymore.

@DrowsyDragon "when I am in front of her she is all angry Icy fury and none of it comes and I feel so small."

• those of us with awful mothers, so get you here!

It is really hard to develop yourself and please don't be hard on yourself, its a process. You can't magically develop boundaries after being so thoroughly dominated and beaten into accepting she comes first at all times, always.

Your DH is your guiding light in all this. If he thinks she is being unreasonable, trust, she is being unreasonable. The rest of you (Dad, you) have been thoroughly 'trained' by her that she comes first at all times, always.

The only solution is reduced contact. It is POINTLESS trying to get through to her or hoping she will change. This is who she is and she is never going to see any other person's point of view. It all coming out the other night? 1. Waste of time 2. She is now the hard done by one 3. She will ramp up her control.

You are in for another really hard time of sorrow where you accept you are never going to have the mother you rightly deserve, she is never going to love you for the wonderful person you are, just go on that journey of grief and feel those feelings.

Stop the childcare, seriously. That is her hook into YOUR family. Just say something neutral like 'the nursery says if I don't take the place they will give it to someone else' - AFTER you have made the move and put DD into full time nursery.

Free yourself, Dragons. But don't kid yourself, this change really hurts whilst it is happening.

Is there any way you can see your Dad by himself? I never could, he was not interested anyway.

"There’s such an enormous taboo in society to say your mum is just an evil bitch who deliberately treats you like shit though she plays nice mum to the outside world." - yup!

She used to come over so sweet, my friends would confide in her. I would say to them 'do not trust her! Don't tell her stuff, she just tells the whole town' - what child says that about their own mother? But I was telling the truth. They never listened, because what mother does that?

OP if you are parenting your DD like that why are you allowing her to be alone with your mother? You know how she abused you as a teenager so why do you think she will do differently to your daughter?

I'm actually surprised your DH allows your DD to be alone with your mother. I know plenty of men who do not allow their children to be alone with their own or their wives abusive relations including their MIL. Some people would see that as controlling but having had to intervene with my own toxic mother I'm glad they do that.

Oh and my own mother made me doubt my own memories however two of her other targets backed up my memories as true. Either because similar things happened to them or they were in the room. In her case the reason she tried to make me doubt them is because she would have been accused of neglecting me.

I would send your daughter to a Nursery and stop your mothers role in childcare

I would change your Counsellor to someone who isn't trying to fix the family - your mother will never change - there is no fix, you need someone to help you empower yourself

I would go very low contact with your mother and only see her with your husband

I think you're doing amazingly well. You've made so many positive changes

Of course she hates your H, he stands in the the way of her control. It’s very unlikely that you can change the toxic dynamics of your relationship on your own and she doesn’t want to. There is also no halfway with her because she will always be pushing your boundaries in order to regain control.

Low to no contact is the key and stopping childcare immediately. It really isn’t fair to have your DD to be in the middle of a toxic relationship.

The cycle can only be broken by the person who isn’t invested in maintaining the status quo.

Dear girl, You are trying to please everyone. Your mother is terrified of losing control of your family and she's losing control (shouting and being unreasonable) to gain control. Your husband refuses to obey and you want to side with him. And to be honest it sounds like a healthy move. Your mother loves being able to control every move of your daughter...as she did you when you were little. Don't wait. Put your foot down. Your house. Your child. If she helps....it's on your terms.