Was this consensual? (trigger warning, sorry)

[StillSoConfused]

Have name changed for this.

Have been married 15 years, in the process of separating. Lots of issues, including loss of desire on my side, and some sexual behaviour from him that I don't like.

Years ago, during the first two or three years of our relationship, I would often wake up to discover my then OH (now STBXH) having sex with me. I didn't really know what to make of it, so I would sort of half heartedly join in. Sometimes I suppose it was enjoyable but at no point did I give consent for it to begin, as it always started when I was asleep.

Mentioned it a few times to OH who said he must have started it while asleep. It happened quite a lot, especially when he'd had a drink.
After a while it started to get to me, so if I ever felt him even lean over and try to touch me while he thought I was sleeping I'd roll over and pretend to be so deeply asleep he couldn't get near me. He gradually stopped, and it hasn't happened for a few years.

I always just assumed he was doing it while he was asleep.

However, I now think that perhaps he wasn't asleep and that in fact he was awake, and that this was non-consensual sex, or rape I suppose. Was it? I'm so confused - it's one of the many issues I need to work through but I'm worried I'm looking for additional reasons to paint him as the baddie (god knows he has done some shitty stuff) and that this has clouded my judgement.

Please be gentle, I've never talked about this before and I'm really not sure about what to think.

Well it's clearly non consensual when it begins, so very dodgy at least. The problem is that some people, men and women, quite like being woken this way and you also said you quite enjoyed it. I think unless you did actually make it clear, verbally or otherwise, hat you didn't want it, it would be hard to call it rape or non consensual.
If you froze or in other ways signalled that you didn't want it then it's pretty clearly rape I think.
You are certainly entitled to feel violated in retrospect I think. He sounds pretty horrible if this is only part of what he did with you.

Sorry I meant to say that you sometimes found out enjoyable. Also I don't buy for a minute that he was asleep. That's pure bullshit.

Raping a sleeping person is rape, as they cannot consent.

His claim that he must've started it while he was asleep is most likely lies.

'After a while it started to get to me, so if I ever felt him even lean over and try to touch me while he thought I was sleeping'

So, you're aware he was waiting until he thought you were asleep to touch you, i.e. he was conscious at the time and doing it deliberately.

I had a partner who used to do this to me- grim. If you then went along with it doesn't make it any better.

Supposedly some women like this, but your knew you didn't want it- he was waiting until you were asleep to take advantage of and rape you.

@pog100 the OP didn't say she quite enjoyed it, she said she went along with it and 'supposed it was enjoyable sometimes.'

That is not consent- at the very least, after the initial rape it was coerced sex as it had already started, plus women do go along with sex they on't want for various reasons- for instance to try and save the bloke being moody and making their life bleak etc, and so on.

If a couple like this they have discussed it beforehand- otherwise not liking being raped while you're unconscious is the default a man should assume.

My ex claimed his ex liked it, and used that as an excuse- but he also enjoyed raping me when I was too drunk to consent, and coercing me into sex in general by manipulation of various kinds, so he knew exactly what he was doing.

Please excuse the typos x

This isn't as cut and dried as some make out. Clearly it starts out as non consensual but as you were in a relationship and joined in it's where it makes it difficult, plus his claim he was also asleep when he started, which is feasible.

But I think the more important reason is why are you thinking on it now? Do you feel it was rape? Did you feel it then? Your feelings are what's important here.

What is consent?
In law, sexual consent is when we agree by choice, and have the freedom and capacity to make that choice.

That means that someone cannot give their consent when they are:

scared or threatened
bullied
very drunk or under the influence of drugs
asleep

If you said ‘yes’ to something because you were scared for your life or safety, or for the life or safety of someone you care about, you didn’t consent.

If your body froze or ‘flopped’ / went limp or you weren’t able to speak, it doesn’t mean you gave your consent for what happened to you.
rapecrisis.org.uk/get-help/

I'm sorry but it sounds as though he was sexually assaulting you. He was aware of what he was doing, he wasn't asleep. It might be an idea to contact Rape Crisis, their details are above in order to have a chat about what happened and to clarity, as I understand how confusing this is.

Well you were asleep so couldn't consent so yes it was rape. No one has the right to have sex with an unconscious person next to them it doesn't matter if it's your husband or not. Now if both of you liked this and discussed you wanted him to do it that's different but he obviously waited till you fell asleep then had sex with you which is disgusting.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You've helped me sift through the confusion.

We definitely didn't discuss it or agree that it was OK. I vaguely recall that I asked him whether he remembered it happening, and he said no and he must have been asleep. I think then I realised that he was probably not telling the truth as I remembered that he was definitely awake for some of it. The difficult part is I also know that I didn't actively ask him to stop either.

It's difficult because at the time I couldn't let myself believe it wasn't consensual - that would have been too much for me to admit to myself at the time. I desperately wanted our relationship to work, particularly on a physical level, even though I had probably already realised we weren't sexually compatible.

It's only now that the scales have fallen from my eyes and I've recognised some of his other behaviours for what they are, that I see that there were deep problems from the start.

He later displayed signs of a fetish (nothing especially creepy, but really not my bag either) and would get me to indulge it even though I clearly told him I didn't want to. It got to the point that I dreaded sex with him but would go along with it because - hey, isn't that what you do after 10 years of marriage...

I'm sorry you're going through this. That is the nature of abuse.

It's sometimes called a 'fog' because it's only with distance and time that we see how messed up everything was. You often get survivors asking if what they are seeing or hearing is actually happening because of years of gaslighting and abuse. It simply grinds you down after a while.

You're a survivor. It seems like you're out but may need some additional support. Rape Crisis (the name is misleading as they deal with all sorts of issues around sexual abuse, not just rape) have helplines and local advisors. They may be able to put you in contact with people who can support you locally. They will listen to you and support you, no matter what you decide to do.

My ex did this to me quite a few times. Either fingers in me or would try more. I was like you. I didn't know if it was assault/rape because I never told him no. I would just roll over and move away from him but was terrified of falling back to sleep too soon in case he tried again. The relationship didn't last long after he started doing this. I thought he was being sweet giving me his t-shirts to wear in bed and he would moan if I put on normal PJs. He used to say he loved seeing me in then and I looked cute wearing them when actually it was an excuse for him to have easier access to me. Thinking about him still makes my skin crawl.

Honestly, I don’t think so. I’ll try and explain as gently as I can, Op. You say you enjoyed it sometimes and you say you joined in. Added with the fact that you were in a relationship, it doesn’t sound like anything to me. If you had objected or not participated. By joining in you in a way have non-explicit consent. xx

Added with the fact that you were in a relationship, it doesn’t sound like anything to me.

Wtf.

@plantainchips Please don't ever go into a counselling role or any role where you have to deal with abused women.

I don’t think it was rape either sorry

It sounds like sexual assualt to me, at the very least, OP. And it can be really hard to wrap your head around that, especially in the context of a relationship.

It's your feelings that are important here though. Could you contact someone like Rape Crisis or Women's Aid or even a private counsellor so that you can talk about this with a profesional? It might help you get your thoughts and feelings straight?

Yes, of course it's assault. You didn't consent to it, end of.

There is a huge difference between a bit of boob squeeze on a sleepy partner so that the wake up and consensual sex commences to waking up with your DH already on top of you and inside you. I have been there myself. I froze. It's the biggest reason why my marriage failed. I didn't go to the police because I thought it would be detrimental to our DC but to me it was 100% rape.

Thanks. It's a grey area, I understand that. It's why I feel so conflicted.

I am seeing a counsellor to help work through some other issues linked to this relationship and the separation. I didn't really dare mention it to the counsellor (probably because I was still confused about it) but I think I might try and raise it. Even just to help myself understand my own reactions.

It's certainly symptomatic of our sex life during our relationship in that I didn't really enjoy it that much after the "honeymoon period" was over. But couldn't bear to admit that there might be anything wrong, because that would have been too big to deal with...

Anyway thank you so much for your posts, it's really helping.

No where did I say you couldn’t be sexually assaulted in a relationship! You can. I’m saying in combination with all of the things I mentioned, it seems unlikely to me. In a relationship there is some element of not explicit consent. It isn’t generally a thing to ask partner if you can kiss them or initiate EVERY TIME. I don’t appreciate the suggestion that I am pushing any sort of message such as that. I am NOT.

I think unless you did actually make it clear, verbally or otherwise, hat you didn't want it, it would be hard to call it rape or non consensual.

Really???

An unconscious person cannot consent.

That's a full sentence.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ

Hmm this is difficult for you. I wonder if the later attempts to get you involved with his fetish are colouring your memory. There have been several occasions when we have had sex before sleep, both participating as usual, and then in the morning my DW seemed to have forgotten and asked me if we had done it. This makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable but she has never suggested that there is an issue, so I do think it is possible for someone to have sex whilst not completely awake. Which makes consent a bit hard to establish.