Can anyone help.....please?

[Clarity2019]

Hi all,

Lots of google results come up with mumsnet so...here I am never expecting to be posting something like this as I'm not a mum, in fact I'm also a bloke.
Anyway, I am at a complete loss on what to try next so a mix of wanting to talk to someone (as such) and hopefully get some views on what to do. As in the title, been together 20 years, married for 13 and both 52 years old. Please don't view the next bit as a bleat, moan etc, it is just the facts of where we are at. Seven years ago, sex started to 'happen' less. The first time I brought this up, she (sorry, my wife!) basically just looked, shrugged and refused to speak about it. I left it about another 6 months and tried again but same reaction. The third time was me saying that I'm happy for her to talk about it in her own time if/when she's ready. Apologies for too much information here but here's where we are at. Nothing more has ever been said. In the following four and a half years, we had sex (instigated by me) 7 times. In the last 18 months, no sex at all. All in all, this could be an easy one to work out but here's why I am at my wits end. My wife and I are both fully functioning. By that, I mean we both have toys and both use them............just not together! To head off a possible question, no, not spying either. We both take care of washing/ironing etc so when undies get put away, sometimes different drawers contain the toy as is the same with my bedside drawers so both pretty much know that we are both enjoying 'me time'.
This leaves us at a point where we clearly both still have a libido, both satisfy ourselves but don't have sex. As with a few threads I've read, the first advice is to talk. So I'm not on here asking for advice on sex, I'm asking advice on just how to get my wife to talk about it. This post could have just been a couple of lines but all the intro info is to try and show that this isn't just a little thing that's happened over the last couple of months and jumped on mumsnet for a giggle. Advice and thoughts welcome from both male and female especially if someone out there has been in a similar position and had a successful resolve.

Please don’t be offended but your question has undertones of: what is so wrong with my wife that she won’t have sex with me?
If I was your wife that would make me feel defensive and want to avoid the conversation.

Talk to her about how you can be closer in general. Be honest about wanting sex but be aware that the first step is to get someone to find you attractive, so don’t aim to get her pants off, aim to make her enjoy being in your presence. Ask her what activities- not necessarily sexual activities- she’d like to do with you. If you feel lonely or sad be honest but don’t say ‘you make me feel...’ just say ‘I feel...’

There isn't a one answer fits all in these situations in my experience. Obviously you know that you need to discuss why she no longer wants to have sex with you and if it is something that can be overcome but if she's not engaging it is going to be hard.

How is the rest of your relationship? Do you still enjoy other activities together? Do you laugh with each other, care for each other, have other intimate moments but just no sex?

If everything else is great then you'll need to find a way to have her open up, whether that's writing down your feelings in a non accusing letter or gently steering conversation that way I don't know but you will need to work that out.
If other things aren't so great then I'd advise working on the non sexual side of your relationship and getting things working as a whole before opening the discussion again.

Please don’t be offended but your question has undertones of: what is so wrong with my wife that she won’t have sex with me?
It doesn't across like that to me at all. It comes across as the OP just not knowing what the heck to do to get his wife to talk about it.

OP, do you and your wife usually communicate well and is it purely this subject that she doesn't want to talk about?

It has gone on for so long that I think this may be difficult to approach. I would suggest that you are very direct.You know she is reluctant to do so (because you have offered her ample opportunity and haven't pressed her on the issue) so you need to start by saying 'I know you are reluctant to talk about this but we really need to'.

I would just state facts - that you miss the lack of sex and intimacy and want to try and understand why your relationship has changed and discuss ways to improve this.

Be really kind to her. Consider whether she is/has been in the menopause or suffering depression or other health issues that may account for this change. Don't make it all about the sex act. Talk in terms of your relationship and the general intimacy you share(d). Listen, actually listen, to what she says. Digest it. Don't jump in and talk about what you think she is saying. Clarify what she means.

Normally, unless there are physical sex problems, it might be that people stop having sex because of other things like feeling unappreciated, unsupported, not respected.

This may be salvageable ....but it may not. Be prepared for either scenario.

Thanks rachelfrost, no not offended but without writing a book, was going to struggle to get across in my post, not asking why she won't have sex with me, asking how I can get her to talk about it.
Yes, rest of relationship is absolutely fine. We go out, we stay in, laugh, mess around etc.
After the first attempt at talking, on the second attempt, there was a very clear facial expression and body language that she was uncomfortable with the subject. This is why the third was an attempt to not make her uncomfortable and to let her know I'm ready to talk whenever she is. I get that not everyone feels comfortable talking about sex but I just think that 6 years is a long long time to remain uncomfortable to talk about it? I appreciate that if during 6 years we were having 'awkward' sex but just not talking about making it more fun and less awkward it may not be so bad. My struggle is that she is going without too and yet in years hasn't attempted to talk about it. Not even as you say westsidesnory, an open letter type approach. I did try that a couple of years ago. Left it on the bedside cabinet in the morning and when I got home in the evening, it was gone and nothing said.

Thank you so much TheMidasTouch, no menopause issues. She has been on HRT for a long time before things started to 'go wrong'. About 10 years ago, she did change prescription and boy did we both notice our sex life drop off so soon went back to original prescription.

OK, so my perspective.

How was the sex when you had it? Because if it was good, and she still has a sex drive then it begs the question why not have more with you?

So, she is either not having sex with you because it's more fun by herself and she doesn't want to talk about it.

Or, she has the ick. Where, for whatever reason, the idea of intimacy with you is no longer appealing to her. You're more like her friend. Or brother.

Or, she could be having an affair, perhaps started due to the reasons above.

Good question notallitseemstobe. I avoided that bit on my post for fear of TMI. The lead up years, yes, good. Both instigated sex, both fulfilled etc. You may be right with the ick thing. Possibly too much info now but things gradually declined by reduced foreplay (plenty towards her but less and less coming back). I started to feel that her heart just wasn't in it even when she had instigated. As this was more on my mind, the point that triggered the first attempt at talking about it was when she had instigated on a lazy Sunday morning, (really really sorry for this but can't find a way to explain more eloquently) basically laid back and thought of England. Fine if you're not in the mood and you want to shut up your sex pestering partner but a little bit confusing when you've instigated it? With regards to self pleasure being better, I'm an absolute believer in both males and females sometimes just need a stress free solo session as well. The irony is that after looking on line one evening (when things were good) we decided to buy a toy to add some extra to our sex life! It's hard to score ones self on if they are good or rubbish in bed but the best I can explain is that it wasn't an issue before.
As far as a possible affair goes, I would never rule it out but we are a very close couple and outside of working hours are seldom apart. This doesn't mean a quick shag can't be had of course but nothing really points to an affair. I think this is why after this long I want to try again as I would think that much longer and yes, we could both end up having affairs because quite clearly we both libidos but we couldn't talk it through and sort it out.

I agree with Redannie118. You've been very thoughtful and tried all the ways I'd suggest to get her to open up. You've come to a bit of an impasse.

I think you're going to have to be kind, gentle but direct and tell her that a sexless marriage just isn't working for you. You can say that you appreciate it's very hard for her to talk about but that you've reached the point where talking really cannot be postponed any more.

I hope that if she realises how serious things are she'll bite the bullet.

I also think you need to be direct. Sit her down glass of wine, and say before I start this this is a discussion about understanding, it's not about pressure. But we now have a sexless marriage and I need help to understand why and what's occuring to cause this.

However be prepared, she may just not fancy you any more. And you need to think through your reactions to that. Will you leave? Accept it and be celibate? Accept it and secretly have affairs?

Once it's gone, sexual attraction, it's hard to get back. And this may be what you're facing.

OP, these threads always feature people bringing their own particular biases to the table.

It'll be implied that you don't do enough around the house.
It'll be implied that you are not sharing enough of cognitive load of running a household.
It'll be implied that you're not good enough at sex, so your wife has gone off it.

It could be one (or more) of these things. But it also honestly might simply be that she doesn't want sex with you anymore, for reasons that she struggles to explain.

If you press the issue, she may be honest, or she may deflect into one or more of the above, aware as many are that simply telling a partner "I don't want a sex life with you anymore" is a declaration of ending the marriage. And she might not want that.

I agree you have to talk. Kindness is always important, but to be honest, so is forthrightness. You're not entitled to sex, but you're entitled to know where you stand so you can make an informed choice as to how to live your life.

Thanks Redannie118 and Prawnofthepatriarchy (and everyone else!) for taking the time to share views/opinions & advice. Actually quite glad I've posted on here now.
It does appear that another discussion is due even though it may be too late.
It's made it all sound so simple but I suppose that even after all these years of pain and frustration, I've just still felt that I would be going back on my word (I'll say no more about it until you're ready theme) and cause even more upset.
Lord only knows how I'm going to pick the right moment to approach the subject but will do my best!
Even though the 'discussions' were a bit one sided, I must admit, I never made any mention of potential implications by ending up in a sexless marriage so need to think about exactly what those implications are first! I don't really fancy a divorce as every other aspect of our life is good but the prospect of no sex for the rest of my life...............hmmmm, no.

'we both have toys and both use them............just not together! '

I have a kind-of lover but I've always had eating disorder symptoms/body image issues. I put on a bit of weight (nothing that would bother most people without these issues) and now most of the time I don't want to be touched much, and I don't want to be seen naked by anyone else.

Could it be something like that?

Interestedwoman, thank you for that. I have been desperately trying to avoid the scenario on here of seemingly prying into other people's own situations. However, in reality I think I needed what you've just said. It's provoked a 101 questions but not going to ask them! Other than to say that, no, there isn't an issue like that. To be fair, in twenty odd years we have both 'got comfortable shapes' compared to when we met but nothing that really stands out . Also, over the years (and because i genuinely believe in it) I have made it clear that to me, sexiness is in the head and heart and not in the size or shape of someone's body so have almost taken it as read that even if she felt this way about herself that I didn't feel that way (if that makes sense?). Of course, it could be that she doesn't have an issue with her appearance but does have an issue with mine. Having now thought about it, In twenty years, I have gone up one waist size so have to accept I'm bigger but would hope that one size up would be classed as acceptable collateral damage?

Having read that back, came out wrong! What I was trying to say was that all the advice so far has been spot on but also good to have someone also take the time to highlight a possible issue based on their own experience.

You'd expect things to dwindle a bit but not that much! I guess relationships do change byt from what you've said I don't think your wife is being very fair actually. She doesn't have to have sex of course- but she's in a marriage and its a partnership so definitely she owes it to you to talk and explain how she's feeling.
It seems from what you've described that your intimacy with her is just stuck somehow. I agree with your conclusion that you need to tell her how you feel about the intimate side of your relationship- and she should have the opportunity to tell you how she feels.
Quite honestly you also have to ask yourself whether you want to still be in this relationship on these terms. I mean its not as if you haven't tried.

I agree with others that you have been incredibly understanding, but equally, where you haven't discussed this in so long, it could be that your wife assumes that you're happy with the arrangement. On that basis, she may be shocked to hear that you're not.

With my ex husband, I completely went off sex. There was a more obvious reason, which was that I had two young children, however the thought of him touching me made my skin crawl, I now realise that I had the "ick". My marriage didn't work out (not for this reason) and I went around 18 months without having an orgasm, it just wasn't on my radar at all, not even as a solo activity. Sex very much seems to be a case of the more you have the more you want, and I think that's definitely worth bearing in mind for if you do manage to rekindle the sexual side of your relationship - that it's not suddenly going to go back to how it was, it's likely to be very occasional at first - and I think it's important to say that to your wife so she knows that having sex one time doesn't mean it's always on the table again. By the same token, it may be that you don't even have penetrative sex the first time, it may be a case of building up to it slowly with no expectation but just enjoying it for what it is, even if that's just kissing at first.

In terms of how to approach the conversation, be direct about what you want to talk about and clear about how you feel about it but give her the opportunity to talk too. If she feels uncomfortable or says she doesn't know what she wants/how she feels, suggest she take some time to think about it and talk again in a few days.

Well the 'ick' thing keeps coming up and is something I hadn't considered. Not because I couldn't understand why anyone wouldn't want me touching them, but more that I hadn't really come across it as such before. Lots of soul searching last night with the added views from chocolate50 and allthesharks (many thanks) and pretty much ready to try to talk about it with her. The ick thing seems to come up a lot. It seems that there isn't any coming back from that one? In the bluntest of terms it's 'rejection' so need to prepare for that by understanding it better so will be having a browse on here. In the meantime, if there is anyone who has been through the ick and survived so to speak, please share!

I personally believe (with no evidence) that a sizable fraction of sexless marriages end up sexless for idiopathic reasons.

There is then some post-hoc justification in an attempt to find a reason, avoid blame, avoid divorce, retain the moral high ground etc.

If you end up with a laundry list of things to fix that have never been raised or discussed before, then consider the possibility that it's really just over (sexually, at least) and she doesn't know how to tell you.

Absolutely Dissmilitude, it's not a much a fear of whether it's over (sexually) or indeed whether it's something that can and will be fixed. It's all about getting to talk about it. I doubt there's many people who at some time or another who haven't advised others to 'talk things through' with each other. On the face of it, it's such a simple and obvious thing to do, it begs the question of 'why on earth would you not talk about it?' I have (albiet seemingly wrongly) given it over four years for her to raise the subject as my attempts to raise it were met with silence. For the avoidance of doubt, my attempts were not stood on a lectern reading out a list of wants, needs etc. They were quiet moments of me pouring my heart out about everything from, are you ok, am I ok, my concern that we (as I know know the term is 'ick') possibly lost those type of feelings through to the more cringingly classic 'is there anything I can do to make things better. I appreciate there is no hard and fast rule on any emotional changes but having now looked more at the 'ick' issue, I currently feel that it may not be that. We do still kiss each other 'morning' before getting out of bed, we kiss 'goodbye', we kiss when both back home and when out and about seldom do we not hold hands. We always sit together on the sofa and pretty much do everything together (shopping, gardening etc. This isn't conclusive by any means but do think that if it was a real 'falling out of love' or 'make her skin crawl to touch me/be with me' then there would be more than just the sexual side of our marriage that would be suffering. A bit strong for me to refer to it as closure but in a way, that's what it is. Right now, it's in limbo and has been for too long which is why I have signed up to mumsnet and posted it on here. If it is over sexually, then it's over but until this is aired between us, the way forward is blocked. At this stage, I am preparing myself for both outcomes.

It sounds to me like she is happy enough in the marriage, given the level of affection and interaction. She may simply have lost the desire for that kind of intimacy.

This is in many ways the toughest outcome of all, because she'll no doubt understand on some deep level that living a more celibate life isn't what you want, and she'll be afraid of the consequences of confronting that.

It's the elephant in the room. If you have the conversation then nothing can go back to as it was.

So you avoid the conversation where you have to admit you don't want to sleep with them ever again, because you don't want to blow up the rest of your lives. Words have consequences so you don't talk.

Glad to hear you’re not offended. A couple of thoughts:
One is that you sound like you spend a lot of time with each other. Time apart, building separate identities can help bring a couple closer. Seeing your partner appreciated by others and going through the world without you is supposed to make you see them through another’s eyes. (Does that make sense? Bit of a tricky concept to summarise. I could look it up to find a better description if you like.)
Two is about how to talk to your wife. Tell her you’d like to regain some physical intimacy and that having this conversation is important. Make sure she understands it’s not about her being wrong, it’s about the two of you communicating. You can try a hotter/colder type game if she feels horribly awkward but willing to try. You ask questions and she says yes or no, or nods, or squeezes your hand etc. You could ask about all the things others have brought up in previous posts.

Good luck!