I think my daughter's partner is passive aggressive

[grannyd]

They live abroad and have 2 young daughters (2 and 9 months) and he and I have never hit it off although after the first few meetings during which he was downright rude to me he phoned in tears and apologised and both of us have made the effort ever since.

But he is difficult - always evasive, critical of others, sarcastic, makes me feel I should be apologetic just for being me. Dotes on my daughter and their two girls (my darling granddaughters) but is perhaps over sentimental about them?

Gloomy outlook, seems to think stuck in his dead-end low paid job. No ambition to do anything else. V. sarcastic and scathing of their (my daughter's) friends who are more successful than he is. Daughter defends him as sees him as something of a lost soul and enjoys getting the princess treatment. She tends to blame me for being 'too judgemental' although my tongue is red raw from being bitten. Daughter beginning to see problematic relationship extending beyond just with me - he has fallen out with others and I think his constant pessimism is getting her down. Her friends have a more expansive happier life than her. But she left it late to have her babies - mid 30's and I think is terrified of being on her own again. She is totally stuck where they live - does not drive and has no access to shops.

What advice for me? I hate to see her so trapped and feel the relationship will get worse. Also worried he might be too controlling of the girls.

I think you ought to keep out of their relationship, but it wouldn't hurt to encourage her to learn to drive.

If she likes her life well enough to live it without trying to change it, then there is nothing you can do.

he 'dotes on my daughter and their two girls'....and your problem with him is????

you come across as a bit of a nightmare tbh...i'm sure that your intentions are good (i think?) but really, if she says she is happy and lvoes him and you observe that he dotes on them, then butt out.

i mean....in your one post you criticise the following:

he is: downright rude, evasive, critical, sarcastic, is 'over sentimental' about his family (what on earth does that actually mean?), he is in a 'dead-end low paid job' which you obv have a problem about, and you say that your daughter defends her husband (and it does sound as if she needs to, from you) because she enjoys 'princess treatment'.

the more i read your post the more it comes across that is feeling attacking of them, and covering it under the auspices of being 'worried' and wanting to help.

Agree. Are you actually saying you miss your daughter and granddaughters and would like to see more of them but feel you can't?

If so, that's sad but you can't get there by carping at your sil who sounds perfectly normal tbh.

Hmm, I can see how you might think I came across as a nightmare! Are they happy? It didn't seem so. Both v. tired all the time - understandable with two young children, the heat and long hours for the bf to work (they are not married). So perhaps yes, both on fairly short fuses.

But the problem is more than that. The low-paid dead end job is a problem for both of them. I don't have a problem with what he does, but he does. He is always moaning about it but has a very defeatist attitude about finding something else and won't consider training for anything better. I have tried to gently encourage him to think about it but he just explains to me that I have to understand there is nothing else he can do. My daughter thinks he has low self-esteem but is rapidly losing patience with this being the answer to his not achieving anything and his aggressive stance over those he thinks are better off than he is. His humour is always of the sarcastic variety. He's a hard guy to be around and I have tried, honestly, to like him. I am always friendly with him but he does make it difficult. The present I took for him this time (some t-shirts) he seemed to take as a personal insult, only thanked me when pressed to by my daughter. (not that I was looking for thanks - I genuinly wanted to please him). Maybe I got the style wrong and he thinks I don't see how stylish he really is, I don't know. I can't seem to do anything right as far as he is concerned.

Yes of course I miss my daughter and my two granddaughters. I would love to see them all more often. And as for encouraging my daughter to drive - I have paid for so many driving lessons for her in the past... Where they live now is halfway up a mountain with steep steep roads. I suggested she try a moped but he said no way. But they cannot afford it at the moment anyway - they are living pretty much hand to mouth. I help financially as much as I can, especially with stuff for the girls and this time by taking my daughter into town and buying her some badly needed new clothes. I am not well off myself - we too struggle financially but I am happy to spend money on helping them out.

Re the over sentimental - he almost cries when he hugs his daughters and tells them how much he loves them - which I think is lovely - but then wanders off in the middle of feeding the baby and, if he has to mind her is quick to hand her back to mum if she starts to cry, getting snappy with her (mum) if she is busy doing something else (which is where I step in: he would never ask me to mind her directly.

I am worried but I guess the message I am taking from the responses so far is - keep out of it. (which is what I have been doing for the past 3 or 4 years to be honest). But it is hard to watch my daughter being miserable.

I guess you have to carry on doing what you're doing although i can only imagine how difficult it must be for you at times.

I have been in horrible jobs that i've hated & suffered with low self esteem which until you actually see you could train to do something better and believe in your self to do it, you stay where you are. But lots of encouragement & positive comments from you could make a lot of difference to him and your daughter.

every couple has their ups and downs
on a bad day when me and DH are worn out from working and bickering we must look miserable to outsiders
has your daughter confided in you or are you thinking she is?

I can understnd it might not be the sort of relationship YOU would like but SHE chose him for a reason and it may well be that being doted on, secure in his love for her and teh children and being the centre of his universe is really important to her and hugely outweighs the negative aspects that maybe frustrate her.

Be very careful here. You don't know what their relationship is about, and you could alienate her if she feels you are being critical of the man she loves. If you want to help you could try being supportive of them both and giving them some time on their own together.

From your OP I thought you might be my Mum!! She doesn't approve of my dp, refuses to ask about the time I spend with him since it might involve discussing him, will not return calls to my mobile when I'm with him - excuses are made that 'they were busy' or 'the phone wasn't working' (to be fair, she doesn't possess a mobile and this excuses were made by my sister to whom I made the calls in lieu of my Mum having a phone) and keeps on about he is controlling me even though she doesn't know him, conjures up reasons why he's no good for me and when that isn't enough just makes up things to suit her story.

Really you have to let your dd lead her own life and be there in case she ever needs you. I would encourage your dd to learn to drive and perhaps think about taking up a new occupation to give her a bit more independance but as for the rest.... you have to respect her decision. Would write more but it's very hard and painful when you know that your parents do not approve of your partner for whatever reason.

I am sorry that the other posts seem to be attacking you- when you obviously need help.

I think it is fair to say "Keep out of this" to an extent.

Have you ever confronted him about how he treats you? You have very right to have a chat with him- say you need to talk about something and just say it- like you have here. heneeds to know that his attitudes are hurtful - why let him get away with it?

Has your daughter confided in you that she feels "trapped"? Or are you assuming she is as unhappy as you think she is? What do you mean byhe is "over sentimental"? Does a father and husband not have a right to dote onhis family? You sound a bit jealous actually. And as for him being controlling- well.... Aren't you doing exactly that by wanting to interfere with the family?

Your son in law sounds very insecure- and a bit of a bully. Insecure people who lack confidence always attack othrs- to make them feel better. If your daughter admits she has a problem, they should try relationship counselling first- not abandon a marriage with 2 children at the first sign of trouble. He might also benefit from psychotherapy if he has his own issues.

If your daughter is very dependent on him, and has never learned to drive, well that does go back to her up bringing- did you not encourage her when she was 17?

Your role as a mother is to support your daughter if she asks for help. There is much to be said for them getting professional help and for her being more independent. There are plenty of good life coaches around who will help her structure a more independent life if that is what she wants. Why not offer to pay for some driving lessons for her -or does she not want to drive?

I'm sympathetic to your feelings, Grannyd, probably because I'm in your age group and I see your point of view. He sounds like hard work to be around. But I think the others are right about MYOB, although it must be terribly hard! I think you will just have to stand back and let things unfold. There is some good advice on here already. I think it would be of benefit to your daughter to work on herself and do what makes her happy--much easier than trying to change him! I'd like to see her reply to him when he gets snappy and sarcastic. Does she? I'd hate to see someone be snippy to my daughter (if I had one). I'd think.......well you so and so, how dare you talk to my daughter like that!

OK - you could be describing how my Mum feels about my ex. All I can tell you is what she did - listen, never criticise, support, offer suggestions, financial help and she sent parcels of stuff from the UK, like comics and sweets.

He was very difficult to be around and that made any time she spent here really hard going. In hindsight, it was largely his behaviour that was the issue.

Hold on in there - they will either sort it out and it is down to them, or the relationship won't last because of all the things that worry you.

Thanks CamperShoes and HansieMom you have come closest to how I feel. And thanks to the other posters too.

I have not interfered at all, which is why I posted here. All I have done is be as supportive as I can, and as encouraging as I can. Most of the time I am in England and don't see them.

I did encourage my daughter to learn to drive and paid for driving lessons when she turned 18, but she never got the hang of it.

She now lives in a remote rural village halfway up a mountain with no access to driving lessons, counsellors, anything, just another couple of English couple friends who are v. supportive. (So I wish he wouldn't keep putting them down behind their backs!).

My problem was that I think her partner does have mental health issues and does display passive/aggressive tendencies. I would love to talk to him about his attitudes to me and to life in general but whenever I have tried to gently bring up the idea of his training to do something else he might actually enjoy, for example, he becomes aggressive. The first time I met him we all went out for coffee together, to a place in a lovely garden. My daughter had told me he was interested in training to be a landscape gardener so after coffee I said to him, come on, let's have a look round this garden together. But he replied "why would I want to do that?" So I walked round the garden with my husband, completely perplexed by his response. There has been no talk of his training to be a landscape gardener since altough he does take a very keen interest in raising his dope plants.

I suppose what people here are saying is that my daughter has made her own choice and I must accept that. But she has told me she is finding life very hard and that she loses patience with her partner around his negative attitudes and aggressive behavior towards me and others. Her life revolves totally around the babies and I think she will simply endure her situation until she is able to return to work (she enjoys the work she does). He, I know, harbours ideas that when she goes back to work he will pack up his job to be there for the children although, despite his adoration of them, I worry that he is not able to give them the care and attention they need. He does have a short attention span and I have seen him, several times, simply wandering off when he should be doing something with them.

For example, when the older girl woke up from her afternoon nap one day while we were there he went to get her, but, still tired, she said no, she didn't want him. She actually wanted her mum, but mum had taken the opportunity to have a nap herself. So he left her with a sort of 'sod you' then attitude. I went in - she didn't want me either, but I simply started playing with some of her toys and got her interested in doing that and got her up that way.

I just wondered how other mothers coped with partners with this kind of behaviour. I will keep out of it, of course, and continue to be as supportive and encouraging as I have been.

This guy sounds like a classic pot head imo - no drive, poor concentration and blameful of everyone apart from himself. I'm not sure that you are being over interefering - it must be very worrying for you and i think you are right to be concerned.

He obviously loves his family from what you ar saying but has an enormous amount of guilt and frustration (probably a healthy amount towards himself) which manifests itself in being defensive with everyone.

I think your relationship with him is difficult because he knows you have every reason to be worried about your daughter and grandchildren.

You sound like such a wonderful Mum & Gran ... I really feel for you. I tell you my own story, which hopefully will help you in some way.

I know you are concerned, but you need to tread very carefully. My own situation with my Mum was quite similar a few years ago. And because I am so close to my family, it was a very hard time for me.

When my kids where very young, my marriage went through a rocky patch. I wasn't happy. I know my DH wasn't happy. We were both exhausted trying to raise our 3 children and work at the same time. We didn't have anytime for each other. Our once happy marriage began to suffer. Our sex life came to a halt, and as a result we were no longer emotionally close.

My Mum was concerned and I know she blamed my DH (!). She began to take things he said the wrong way. Misunderstandings happened. Family occasions like Christmas became a strain. I know my Mum talked to my Sister about it. I began to see my Sister's contempt for my DH in her eyes. Even though I never spoke to my DH about it, I could sense he knew my Mum & Siser disliked him. I didn't want to confirm his suspicions, because it would have made an already strained situation much worse.

I was soooooooo unhappy. I got very drepressed about it because there was no-one I could confide in about it. I was piggy-in-the-middle. I never spoke to my Mum at the time but this is what I wanted to say to her:

"Please back off! I love you and I know you mean well, but please leave it. Don't try to fix it. Things will get better. Its hard for us right now but it won't always be like this".

And I was right. It did get better. Now the kids are getting older, things have improved immensely. Family life with our kids is now joyful. DH & I have time for each other again. Our love for each other never died, but it definately lay dormant for a few years.

The relationship between my DH and family is a lot better too. Not perfect yet, but we are getting there.

What I want you to know is this. I knew why my marriage was going through a rocky patch, but I knew we would come through it. As hard as it is, try to trust your daughter's judgement. If she feels her life with him will never improve, she will leave him, but in her own time. Believe me, no-one knows or feels it more than your daughter. There is no need to make hints or point it out to her, she already knows!!!

I also know from our dark years that people become negative when they are unhappy. My DH was negative and so was I (but my family only chose to see my DH's negativity). Now that our lives are happy again, we are living with a positive frame of mind.

Try not to be too judgemental of him. And don't put any pressure on your daughter. Be the most wonderful & supportive Mum you can be. This is what your daughter needs right now more than anything. Make this your focus. Don't let her know you are worried sick, that will only increase her already burdened plate. Trust her to do the right thing. Good luck.

I have read your update. You speak in terms of your SIL being "passive aggressive" - does this mean you have counselling training, as it's not an everyday expression.

I have to keep coming back to the question- how unhappy is your daughter? She comes across through your words as being very passive. Everyone has choices. I work as a life coach and write for some national magazines as a kind of agony aunt- so excuse me wearing this hat here.

Your daughter does have a choice. She doesn't have to live in a remote village if that is not what she wants- whatever her husband does for work, surely he could do it elsewhere? She could learn to drive- it's not that hard! She could tell her husband quite simply, that she does not want this sort of life any more, and they need to make changes.

It would help if we knew where she lived. Many counsellors will work by phone and I work with many of my clients by phone. They live miles away from me.

If I can say so, you seem to behave in a similar way to your daughter- not actually saying what you think. her husband has behaved very rudely towards you, but you literally walked away- why not speak your mind? Are you and your daughter both the "suffer in silence" and "put up with it" types? Life doesn't have to be like that.

You can't change anyone- but you can changehow you react to them- and this in turn will influence how they behave back to you.

You shouldn't interfere in their relationship- but you should as a mother do all you can to encourage your daughter to speak her mind, be assertive, and be more independent.

But, what if speaking your mind makes a bad situation worse i.e. they cut off all contact? Now, I know this is an extreme reaction but I lived with someone who would have reacted like that.

Dealing with someone who is very negative is incredibly hard - it sounds like you have figured out how to handle the situation so you don't lose the relationship with your DD and GCs but don't overlook the fact it will impact on you, too.

Being round someone who rejects you is not exactly easy, particularly if you can't ventilate in RL. Obviously, MN is useful. I've just found out my Mum used a note-book too to jot down all those little things that jar and when put together add up to something quite unpleasant - I'm sure it helped her realise she wasn't going mad. My ex, by and large, projected a nice-guy-facade. Do you visit on your own? Would going over with other people ease the situation?

Campershoes- how can it make things worse? That's rather negative. This man cannot "Ban" his MIL from visiting if her daughter doesn't want that, surely? Sometimes people who behave like spoilt brats need to be told the truth- ok, it's a risk- but surely not worse than living with being unhappy - and it's HOW you say something that matters. You don't have to be aggresssive- assertiveness is NOT the same as being aggressive.

I am so grateful for all the advice I am getting here.

No, I don't confront him or take him to task when he is rude as the whole deal for my daughter is that we should have an enjoyable visit and I don't want to cause upset - just take it on the chin. He can carry a grudge for ages and has refused to talk to his own parents for several months in the past. And I don't want her to have to make a choice as her choice has to be her partner at the moment: she needs him too much. I want to be able to carry on visiting.

I really couldn't understand why my daughter chose him in the first place (sex would be a major factor though!) as he is so less educated than her, and not as intelligent. She told me then that he wanted to better himself and I think she thought she would be introducing him to a better lifestyle and to a certain extent she has succeeded but I can see he often feels out of his depth when the conversation turns to subjects he is not comfortable with (and who knows when that might be, its not like we talk about quantum physics or Wittgenstein: one time it was about Wooster and Jeeves of which he had never heard). He might burst out with something like "I'm sick of talking about..." and kills the conversation stone dead.

My daughter this time said that she is fed up with his self-esteem issues and that he needs to get them sorted out and that she is also fed up with his immaturity. But she does love him, she said, and he ticks many of her boxes.

She needs him - she is earning no money herself now and the little child benefit she was at first entitled to has run out and she cannot move anywhere without him. They have no money for driving lessons and, practically she would not have the time for them. She has to tend to the babies all of the time. Also - the roads are very steep and if she couldn't manage to get the hang of it on our roads, it just ain't gonna happen there.

My conclusion is, and thank you all for your comments, that I must simply continue to be supportive of my daughter, help financially where I can and be here for her if the relationship deteriorates.

I do think his behaviour is passive/aggressive - it fits all of the criteria (I do know a bit about this, but that is another story) but that is not something my daughter would recognise or think about; she just thinks he has low self-esteem. And his problems aren't as bad as another friend's partner who has anger management issues!

The girls are absolutely gorgeous: they are well cared for and happy little things. The baby is a little dynamo and the toddler has me in stitches. They make it all worthwhile and yes, like any doting grandmother, I would love it if they lived nearer so I could seem them more often.

You sound like a fab Mum and Granny - I really hope it comes right.