Thief or conman?

[Brainticket]

This is a post about a "so called friend" rather than a relationship.

I've known my "so called friend" for almost 30 years, but he moved away because of his job and returned to my village about 6 years ago. We bumped into each other on the day he returned and we had a catch up, he was telling me he's into some different sports and hobbies now and these are the same as mine. I got him into the local clay pigeon shooting club, took him to my air rifle target shooting club and he quickly made friends and was welcomed with open arms. I also gave him a few items to help him and make life easier.
A couple of years ago, during the break up with my ex, he agreed to store some of my possessions at his home and some at his friends. I knew what was kept where and had it all listed on my laptop and stored on a memory key. In March of this year, I was settled in my new home and in a position to take back my "stuff". I contacted him and told him the situation, he seemed sheepish and said, "you told me I could have it", I replied, "I did no such thing and want it all back". After a few days, he brought some of my possessions back from his home, but there was some items missing, he claimed he didn't have them, nor did his friend, I know better and showed him my list of what was where, he denied that he'd had this stuff or placed it in storage. I was livid.
I contacted the police, who informed me that it wasn't a legal matter and they could not do anything. As I'm a person who keeps detailed records, I have the receipts and details to the point of being anal and was wondering what else I could do. I'm now stuck between a rock and a hard place, with nowhere to go, can someone offer me some advice as my next step? There's about £5,000 of my property in question here.

Since this issue, I have spoken to a couple of people who know him and both have informed me that he is a bit of a magpie and will try to claim anything as his own. He owes money to a couple of local garages and regularly has men in suits knocking at his door. I have photographs of all of my stuff for insurance purposes and the serial numbers to match, but I cannot claim, as it's not been stolen. Even if I try to claim it's been stolen by him, all he has to do is say I gave it to him or he bought it from me. This is doing my head in and has me very worried as I want to get back to my hobbies.
Any ideas please?

Hi OP,
I wish I had more positive advice but I think your only (legal) recourse would be a claim through the courts, most likely small claims court but check online if you want to pursue it.
If he decided to defend against the case I think your chances of winning would be relatively small unless you have specific evidence like a signed receipt from him which sounds unlikely.
Even if he didn't defend or you won you would still need to enforce the judgement with baliffs or whatever and there's no guarantee that he has the money, depending on the award you could always apply to make him bankrupt but all of that is just throwing more money at it for no return.

If you do decide to take legal action, try and get things in an e-mail or text such as that he had the stuff and for whatever reason disposed of it. It could help as evidence.

Sadly if you want my advice on how to proceed it would be to forget about it and move on.
Depending on how you feel about these things you could pay someone to enforce collection of the debt but you run the risk of serious repercussions from both the police and the enforcer.

Take him to small claims court . You can do it online it's a simple form that should take less than 10 minutes

I would tell him you’re going to file a small claim - this in itself might spur him into suddenly finding your things and returning them.

What communication is there between you regarding the storing and intent to collect? Gather up any emails, text messages etc where you’re discussing it. He could well argue that he understood you to have given him the things on the basis that you say yourself he’s had them for years now - that’s a little different to e.g. keeping some things safe for a few weeks whilst you moved house or whatever.

Is there anyone you both know mutually who you could use as a mediator? Somebody whose opinion of him matters?

The things that went to his friend have likely been sold, in fact they probably were sold when he first said his friend was storing them.

Definitely worth applying for small claims court. It may scare him into coughing up some money but I wouldn't hold your breath. He is a scumbag.

As you don't have any proof that you'd given the stuff to him to store, as opposed to as a gift, I think any court case would come down to 'he said/she said' and might end up costing you more than you'd get back.

He's either grossly misunderstood what you wanted of him, thought that you'd forgotten about the items, or he sold them as soon as he had possession of them.

I'm really sorry OP, but it's hard to see how you could win this one. Your own records sound excellent, but unless you can prove he's taken your things it all seems a bit of a dead end ... and even if you could, there's nothing to stop him claiming it was all a gift

Without doubt he's a scumbag, but he may well be a scumbag who'll get away with it

Personally I would try again with the police. The definition of a theft is an intention to permanently deprive someone of their property.

Your detailed records should help support the claim and, if he still has any of it, may be enough to get him to return it.

He has permanently deprived you of your property. I would ask the police to explain exactly why this doesn't constitute a criminal act and why it falls under civil. His defence may be that you said he could have it, but that's his defence to your report of a crime, and that would be something to be slogged out in court. A criminal one.

You have a right to report a theft and get a crime number for that (which would also make an insurance claim easier), that's the national crime recording standard that applies to this country.

Maybe they didnt understand properly, maybe theres something more to it that your local police established through conversation with you that doesn't make it a crime, but it sure seems to fit the definition to me. I'd try again, explain it like you have here, that you have receipts and have kept an itinerary, be calm and polite, it should be investigated.

As for him claiming it as his own after a period of time, it's a few years since I read up about it (so don't take this as gospel but I think this is the case...), so it might have changed, but for that to apply, the person who had the property would have to assume the rights of the owner and completely disregard/not acknowledge the rightful owner for twelve years before it becomes lawfully theirs. That is a civil matter though... hopefully someone else will be able to advise better on that.

Thank you all for the replies, I've spent the day trying to sort through this, luckily, after a couple of hours of searching, I found my diaries, so this corroborates everything I'd listed on my laptop and USB. Tomorrow, I'm going to get nasty, I'll be sending a final list of my property to my ex friend, giving him the option, to return it or face the consequences of the law, if he chooses the latter, I know he's going to be in deep shit. His employer is a very highly regarded company, with a Royal Warrant and how important is that? This turd, pays more tax per year, than I earn, he can't afford to lose his job.
I reckon a swift response will be happening.

Would the property be shotguns, by any chance? If he's stolen them and sold them on illegally, he could be in all sorts of trouble.

If its not shotguns, and its something like wine glasses or Alvin Stardust records, its still theft. Try the police again, or go after him in small claims court.

You may wish to remind him that theres a chance if he is arrested (which as a suspect in a crime there is every chance he would be purely to get his version of events) that it could be reported to his employer (depends on what job he does really but may scare him enough to either give stuff back or pay you to replace it).

Good luck, genuinely, go back to the police and explain it like you have here and remind them of the definition of a theft. And advise them you wish to report a crime and that you would like your crime reference number. The government stance on crime reporting is that the reporting person has a right to be believed, so it should at least be recorded, irrespective of where any investigation takes it.

Is the £5000 ish what the items cost you, what they would cost you to replace or what the items would currently be worth? That would make quite a difference.

He sounds a right chancer. Not sure I'd be too optimistic about getting the items back. Good luck anyhow.

Maybe ask for this to be moved to legal matters ?

The trouble is that YOU could have written all this stuff down, receipts, diaries etc, but without anything from HIM saying that he agreed to return the stuff without damage, there is nothing anyone legal can do. You could, after all, have falsified your records.

Maybe ask a solicitor for some advice (but beware them offering to 'take the case on' because it will be a money making exercise for them and you are very very unlikely to win any money back).

It's NOT theft unless he took them initially without your consent and intended at that point to deprive you of them. The latter is debatable, the former didn't happen.
This is called @l@conversion" of property and is a civil tort not a crime. You'll have to sue him via a small claim to get them back. You will have to prove on the balance of probabilities that he was storing them for you. Your diaries and the fact you made and kept a list are evidence but not cut and dried.

Don't know what happened there. I meant "conversion"

www.inbrief.co.uk/sales-law/wrongful-interference-with-goods/

I can't see how going to the small claims court is going to work, unless I am missing something.

Yes, there are photos of the items, but there is no proof that he is "storing" the items for you, from what I understand. He hasn't signed anything, no agreement in writing, etc. I can't see how this would work in court.

Judge Rinder

If you ft them there two years ago, haven't you ever mentioned them during that time?

I can't see pe you'll ever prove it wasn't a gift. A diary entry isn't going to help as he can say in his opinion it was a gift.

Reality check.

You treated him like a storage facility.

You are lucky you got some of it back.

You treated him like a storage facility

I agree with PP - you left your stuff at his place for YEARS. I can understand you leaving your stuff with him while you were moving from one place to another, but leaving it for YEARS sound a bit CF to me.

Take one of your shotguns round and ask him again.

Unless you both signed an agreement, I'm not sure how you can prove that you only expected him to store the items.
If he stays adamant that you gave them to him as a gift then surely it would simply be your word against his?
Threatening legal action might make him wobble and at least pay for what he claims to not have but if he knows you can't prove it then he might stand firm. Who knows?

It's an oral contract.
Your diary will be accepted as evidence.
It's his word against yours and depends on who the judge prefers.
The diary and your list may swing it. But may not.
To prove a contract you'd have to show it's terms were clear to both of you and were agreed.