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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Domestic abuse court worries?

26 replies

Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 21:08

Posting here for traffic as Scotsnet isn’t that busy.
Has anyone experienced their ex being charged with domestic violence? My daughters ex was arrested two days ago for attempting to break into her flat and take their year-old son. He was arrested that evening and now has a court date in 2 weeks. She is terrified he's going to plead not guilty and She will have to go and Be a witness in court. Does anyone have an experience with any of this kind of thing preferably in Scotland? Or any advice to be honest.

OP posts:
Wheelson · 02/10/2019 21:13

I was a criminal lawyer in Scotland for msn years. What sort of specific advice were you looking for?

DonKeyshot · 02/10/2019 21:23

I'm not familiar with criminal law in Scotland, but if he is going to plead not guilty it's most probably unlikely that his case will be heard in 2 weeks' time.

It can also be the case that the accused maintains a plea of not guilty until the day of the hearing, at which time they change their plea to guilty if they see that witnesses are in attendance.

Why is your daughter terrified that he may plead not guilty? Has the accused threatened or otherwise attempted to intimidate her, or does she feel some misguided loyalty to him?

Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 21:34

@DonKeyshot
He got the date for court when he was released after arrest so it’s his first hearing where he pleads guilty or not guilty. Then a second date is given for court where she’d be a witness for the prosecution. She is terrified as if he pleads Not guilty then she will need to attend court and be questioned.

@Wheelson I think she’d like to know what the likely outcome would be at the second court hearing where she would be a witness. Would she be questioned by the defence lawyer etc?

Thank you both.

OP posts:
Wheelson · 02/10/2019 21:42

@Isadora2007

If he pleads not guilty he should be given two dates, intermediate diet and trial diet. He can plead guilty at either diet if he wants. If he continues to plead not guilty at the intermediate diet and the case is continued to trial then your DD would have to attend. Her ex could plead guilty on the day of the trial and she wouldn't need to give evidence. If the trial runs then she would firstly be questioned by the prosecution and then the defence. The outcome would depend on how credible she was as a witness and what other evidence there was.

Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 21:46

@Wheelson
There was another person there- her friend. I don’t want to go into detail as it could be an ongoing case etc so wouldn’t want to say anything I shouldn’t online...
I guess generally she’s likely to want to know what would make a credible witness? Would she be allowed to refer to previous behaviour? Like the fact he threatened to take the baby when he (baby) was smaller and he had previously had a warning from the police for sitting outside our house for hours harassing her to “give him his son” when there was no contact arrangement etc

Will his lawyer be allowed to try to make her seem like she’s lying?

OP posts:
Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 21:47

Oh and would she need to attend the intermediate diet?

OP posts:
Wheelson · 02/10/2019 21:52

No, the PF will try to keep her to the facts of the date in question or the defence lawyer will object. If her friend is there then that is good as there is corroboration. If both she and her friend come over well in their statements then his lawyer may try to persuade him yo plead guilty but if he won't then it would be a trial.

She may well be entitled to special measure (screen, supporter) but the crown would make this application in advance. She should tell victim support if she wants this.

Yes his lawyer may well try to make out she is lying if that is the ex's instructions. I was a defence lawyer. It's not personal, the lawyer is just doing their job but I can appreciate it's not a nice experience.

The other thing to be aware is that the domestic court is so busy that trials are routinely adjourned more than once due to lack of court time so she could turn up, sit all day and be sent home for another date.

Wheelson · 02/10/2019 21:53

No, she doesn't need to attend the intermediate diet.

Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 21:58

Thank you @Wheelson that’s useful. Will the court/Sheriff even be aware there is a previous for similar threatening/harassment? It’s awful if not- as that definitely influenced the event and the belief that he meant business if that makes sense.
She has a one year old- I wonder if they will take that into consideration for cancelling etc? It’s really awful that someone can cause so much bloody upheaval to someone else through their actions and still stand the chance of getting off Scot free. I am hopeful that my trust in the justice system isn’t going to be torn to shreds. 😬

OP posts:
DonKeyshot · 02/10/2019 22:02

If I've got this right, your daughter will not have to attend the hearing in 2 weeks' time but she's worried that, should he plead not guilty, she may have to give evidence on a subsequent date?

If he maintains a not guilty plea, your daughter will be required to give evidence and it's highly likely that she will be questioned by the defence lawyer.

I assume that if this comes to pass you'll be in attendance to support your daughter before and after she gives evidence? Please re-assure her that it's not as depicted on many tv crime shows and she won't be made out out be a bigger liar than some of our politicians or torn to shreds in the witness box.

In domestic cases in England/Wales there is provision for a screen to be erected in the court room so that the witness does have to see the accused. Ask the police or the Scottish equivalent of Victim Support if she can benefit from such an arrangement

It occurs to me that it may also help your daughter if she spectates at at a couple of hearings so she can see at first hand that many of her fears are most probably unfounded.

Wheelson · 02/10/2019 22:04

No, the sheriff wouldn't be aware as that would potentially influence his/her decision and the ex needs to be acquitted/convicted based on the evidence of the actual event in question.

In terms of cancelling, if the date set for trial doesn't suit her due to childcare etc then she should make the court aware as soon as possible.

I should say that this info relates to the case being prosecuted at summary level rather than solemn level. The timescales are different in those cases.

I should also say that it's likely if he pleads not guilty that the crown will ask for bail conditions preventing him approaching or contacting her until the case is over.

Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 22:08

Thank you @DonKeyshot that’s a good idea about taking her along to court to see it and I’d be likely to be looking after her baby so I’m not sure I would actually be there on the day. She doesn’t have many people she’d be happy to leave him with for long periods of time other than me. But she would have people there for her too like her big brother or my sister or my husband.
We will contact victim support etc as well I think as although she is an adult- she is only 19 and this is a big deal for her to face alone. His family are very threatening and rich and like to think they’re above the law.

OP posts:
Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 22:13

Yes @Wheelson I’m also assuming a summary case too. It’s so annoying as she didn’t report him shoving her over the week previously as she just couldn’t face this kind of thing that’s now happening.

If I look on the Scottish government website about domestic violence/abuse law will I find what criteria the evidence has to meet? It would be good to know how best to prepare her for the most likely outcome. I’d like to think the police wouldn’t have arrested him if they didn’t believe the evidence was enough...

OP posts:
Wheelson · 02/10/2019 22:32

There isn't any criteria. All she has to do is tell the truth clearly and concisely and try not to get rattled.

You can never predict the outcome. I've had clients where, on paper, they look done out of the park but when the witnesses have given evidence they have been terrible and I've had acquittals as a result.

Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 22:35

Okay thanks. I have said to her to just say what happened and she can’t do any more than that. She and her friend don’t need to try too hard as the truth should be enough. Fingers crossed. But it’s sad that the onus is on how victims come across really as they’re probably the ones most traumatised by these types of scenarios. But I get that for the few actually innocent accused the process has to be robust. Thank you again I really do appreciate your time.

OP posts:
Wheelson · 02/10/2019 22:40

No problem 👍🏻

DonKeyshot · 02/10/2019 22:54

They may be very threatening and rich but neither his family, or their scion, is above the law. However, I would suggest you put your trust in the justice system in abeyance until such time as it's seen to be done as there's nothing to be gained by attempting to predict the outcome.

I would suggest that, if required to attend, your daughter is accompanied by your husband and her big brother as that will at least demonstrate that she is not without, as sexist as it may sound, male protection - abusive males may think twice if they have reason to believe they may find themselves receiving what they intend to mete out.

I would expect that one of the police officers who attended the incident will give evidence and that his/her account will go some way to corroborate those of your daughter and her friend. Your daughter will simply be asked a series of questions by both the prosecution and the defence to which, needless to say, she should give truthful answers and resist the temptation to elaborate.

As your daughter has given birth, she'll know that there are far worse things than being cross-examined by the likes of wheelson Grin and I suggest she discreetly holds a little photo of her ds to focus her mind on the need to protect him at all costs.

I recommend that she requests a screen as this, contrary to what I erroneously wrote in my earlier post, will prevent her from seeing the accused or having the little shit him make eye contact with her.

I really feel for you and your dd and I hope you'll update this thread as and when events unfold,

Wheelson · 02/10/2019 22:59

@DonKeyshot I do like to think I was one of the nicer ones 😀

DonKeyshot · 02/10/2019 23:16

I have no doubt you were, Wheelson, and all I can say in my defence is that the temptation to make the comparison overwhelmed me. Grin

Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 23:16

Awww thank you @DonKeyshot what a lovely idea to take a photo of her son. He will not grow up to be a spoilt bully of a boy (I can’t say “man” about the ex as he is clearly not one) like his father.
My daughter is far stronger than she believes and is a fantastic mum and a clear-speaking, intelligent and personable young woman. I know she is very anxious about all this and she wishes it would all just go away. But she will survive this and come out stronger than before. Thank you again.

OP posts:
Isadora2007 · 02/10/2019 23:18

I will update after the 10th when hopefully the little shit has a tiny bit of decency and pleads guilty.
Though as he is currently waiting to enter one of the armed forces I doubt he will as he is desperate to get off without any effect on his life...

OP posts:
DonKeyshot · 02/10/2019 23:37

You're very welcome, Isadora.

From what you've said it sounds as if your daughter will be an excellent witness and, no matter what the outcome, overcoming her fears and speaking up and out in the witness box can only add to her already impressive strengths.

DonKeyshot · 02/10/2019 23:46

It seems to me that the defence will be looking for damage limitation. In England/Wales the accused would be made aware that a plea of guilty may result in a more lenient sentence than a plea of not guilty and a finding of guilt.

I'm eager to know if he's willing to gamble....

Ginger1982 · 03/10/2019 07:17

True up here too. You do get a discount for an early plea, but some people just don't mind gambling with that for whatever reason.

Wheelson · 03/10/2019 07:52

@Ginger1982 is right. I’ve had to cross examine kids because their parent insists on a trial. Grim!