Fed up of groundhog day asked for divorce and lost

[whatmind]

Hi all I just don't know what to do now and I'm so lost, I've so many questions and just feel wrung out.

I'll try to be non outing whist giving relevant info, it will be long i'm sorry but if I miss out something it's not because I'm trying to drip feed, I just have a bunch of thoughts fireworking away in my head and it's hard to keep track of it all.

The short version is my husband and I have been married a year together 9.
It's the age old story of We've had problems which with hindsight span the whole relationship and have over time become serious fundamental problems that are no longer fixable.
We shouldn't have married, I realise I made the classic mistake of thinking since I planned on being with this man forever because of his good points (I can list them he isn't a monster, just absent and thougtless and frankly unkind, now to me) and given he promised to address the simple, to my mind, hesitations I was having that going ahead with the wedding would work out a-ok.
We talked a lot about postponements etc, mainly me, and he convinced me everything would be lovely and work out just fine.

This evening I asked for a Divorce because I am fed up of repeating the same old patterns over and over again.

The long version:

I feel unheard, my emotional needs neglected, I still feel he is living life as a separate entity rather than a 30 something married man who apparently wants a mortgage and kids in the next few years.

I feel that all the things he said in the early days were just stuff and fluff that was never going to really happen, it was just a nice picture to talk endlessly about but never actually realise.

He is self employed and has a good work ethic mostly - recently due to me really kicking up a real fuss at the lack of action from him he took a lot of time off work but then when he started moaning about having no disposable cash we had a fairly no nonsense talk about if he was depressed he needed to seek help and I would be sympathetic but it didn't let him off the marriage hook, if not he must go back to work and stop whinging at me about a self made problem because he "couldn't be arsed going today" resulted in his lack of free flowing spending money. He is back to normal work ethic funnily enough.

He is very practical and more house proud than me at home but more untidy. So he's more likely to give the bathroom a clean than me but also my clutter is relatively contained whereas his spreads and apparently is breeding at an alarming rate.

I am not house proud and for the most part am happy with clutter, untidy is fine, dirty is not, but it really is at the point where even I admit it's oppressive and don't know where to start. I had a go at tackling some of it, while he was away for a day and it looked great, lasted 5 seconds after he was home and you'd never know I'd done it and it actually annoyed me! I have never in my life been annoyed over housework before!

Initially I was extremely attracted because of his laid back attitude and calm approach to life. Now the laid back and calm mainly feels like lazy - the dishes are done but he's doing that instead of with me during a family emergency and he and my lot get on great.

What I took for his natural stoicism and private nature, has turned out to really be a reluctance to share any information or discuss any thoughts that he may or may not be having.

E.G I found out he'd decided it was a done deal that we move to a particular area for his work by overhearing a conversation he was having with someone else!

It was the first I had heard of it, he didn't say in so many words but the way he was talking about it you would be forgiven for thinking I knew all about it.

The person he was talking to started talking to me about it and in my stunned panic I covered and acted like everything was normal and went nuts at DH later that he'd just drop a major life decision casually into conversation with someone not me without having properly talked about it with me.

I was open to moving and we had talked about a vague move in the future, no areas discussed just that we basically wouldn't stay here forever but that was years prior.

This is a major example but it can be very hard to have a partnership with someone who doesn't do what they say they want to do and doesn't discuss anything that they plan or actually do.

I really try to be reasonable, I'm not talking about he left his socks on the floor stuff but serious future stuff but I find every time I tell him something is wrong and I'm upset/worried/angry I then have to spend ages defending my feeling to him.

I've tried to make him understand why I'm feeling that way, explaining patiently at first but now almost 3 years on from our first major talk about how unhappy I was now I'm really mad we're still having the same stuff happen.

All the while his entire attitude either smacks of "I was wrong ok! There I apologised, you happy? Can we move on to something else and not dwell on this please?!" or
he tries to explain what he actually meant or
explains why he had thought xyz but just hadn't got round to doing/mentioning it, or
he gets defensive and angry and narrow focuses on the wrong thing or deflects and somehow we're talking about something else and not what I want to discuss.

Basically I feel he never really takes in anything or wants to take any responsibility.

He is very keen to brush things under the carpet and doesn't like to talk about problems in the hopes they will go away.

I feel disrespected now in that this has been a a growing problem for me in the last 2-3 years and nothing has changed at all.

There have been stupid white lies, big massive stonkers, gaslighting on a few occasions to various levels.

I'm embarrassed that there are now multiple instances where i have almost left and feel like I was talked around/down but have said that things have to change or I wouldn't stay.

I didn't follow through on leaving. He never follows through on any effort to change outwith the bear minimum for short periods,

I had a singular beatific moment of truthfulness out of him tonight. it was a serious physical sense of relief that I had a straight answer first go without any beating around the bush from him:

Quite a bit later after the Divorce was mentioned I said "the last 2 times this has happened ,I said was seriously considering a separation and then a divorce respectively over all these issues that have built up and I don't think you took me seriously did you?"
and he said "No I didn't"
It was weirdly relieving, but he instantly ruined that feeling by trying to backtrack by saying he hadn't understood the question. We clarified and he agreed that he hadn't misunderstood his answer stood.

I didn't separate for long but I thought it would kick him into realising I was serious, then when that didn't work I told him he had 6 months or I had to divorce.

We are 3 months in and no effort at all has been made, I can't keep going so tonight I lost my patience after yet another round of "I don't know what you want, I'm confused and not as smart as you" from him - I'm pissed off and simplifying in this last paragraph but he has a habit of making himself seem very woe is me as a defence.

I don't know how to label any of these things so it maybe comes over as not really a lot to some.
Individual incidents seem petty beyond measure when I say them out loud, but when they form a pattern of behaviour it becomes a big deal, but then you don't want to be the person who never forgets a wrong or keeps a score.

I have struggled to get the small number of my IRL F&F to understand what I mean when things happen because I can't name it other than "I don't know how to describe it, he's just... difficult... like he says one thing then another" makes it sound like any other change of preference or opinion but in reality you can never get a true baseline, he's forever changing about anything and what he can't wait to do today, tomorrow he's barely thought about that ever in his life.

I'm angry and done and know I need a solicitor and the fucking freedom program hung in front of my face but other than that WTF do I do?

I live in the country but can't afford to live here on my own, I'll have to move to the city as family all there but hate city life and to be honest would probably struggle to pay for anything solo there too.

I am currently unemployed as off sick with depression and stress so no funds to start over again even if I had somewhere to go.

Husband has money from before marriage and whilst legally I would possibly be entitled to some small amount of that I really don't feel that it is fair of me to take it so should I just leave with my own personal belongings and start from scratch?

We don't live in a hugely expensive part of the country but I am mid 30's, intelligent to a reasonable degree but not academic, unqualified, unskilled min wage worker.

I could train and expand my earning options but have no idea what on earth I would do!

My life plan has changed entirely and I am so angry at myself for getting into this position!

I had plans to cover myself if we ever had children together WRT pension, earning disparity over time because of childcare etc not because I planned to fail but that I know things don't always turn out how you want them to.

I had always batted away husbands offer of not working because I mainly would be bored off my chump and I know how vulnerable that would make me long term.

He stopped offering about 2 years into our relationship when I made it clear it wouldn't be happening all being well and everyone healthy.

Where do I go from here?

You talk about the Freedom programme, do you genuinely feel like a victim if abuse?

I have read your post, and he sounds a bit annoying at times (aren’t we all) but are you saying he us abusive??

To me it sounds like you have fallen out if love, and are now counting all the negatives

Crikey sorry fast!

Stuffed penguin,

I certainly don't mean to be making excuses for him as I said I'm trying to explain fully what is going on so people can give honest feedback.
I also said that he is not a monster, we are all able to understand that being a not so great leaning to shit husband doesn't stop you from having good qualities and reasons why people got in the relationship and felt it worthwhile in the first place.

I am absolutely leaving I've put up with more than enough of this and it's past time to go.

I agree I just need to focus on short term right now rather than finding my driving passion right this second.

I have looked at housing chances and well insofar as these things go I am eligible for at least temporary housing so that is something.

Someone said seasonal work, thank you! I hadn't thought of that and it should be easy-ish to pick up a few hours somewhere surely!

Without trying to sound obtuse I'll have to ask him for money to pay a solicitor though, do I tell him that's what I want money for? He'll probably instantly say "yes" and then ask what it's for out of natural curiosity because I don't ask for money normally and if I have in the past it's been small amounts like £10/20 to tide me over and he never asks for it back before someone asks
What if he decides to put the brakes on in some weird panic way by refusing?
I'm assuming it's not £50 I could maybe borrow from someone on a short term basis I'm going to need here?

Sorry Littletonoone

Nothing of any value, when we moved in years ago we furnished with second hand/charity stuff and neither of us have new cars, once I'm on my own I won't keep the car but that's moot as it's legally his anyway and I'd probably have to pay someone to take it away for scrap ha ha!

Like I said I am not materialistic, have very little in the way of things other than books and little bits that make hobbies possible.
He has some "toys" but tbh none are really worth much either as he likes to tinker with things so either makes a new thing something very custom only he'd want or takes an old thing and makes it better but still not worth much.

Yep that’s exactly what I’m saying.
He is house proud but is leaving all his stuff in the middle whilst you are ‘putting little things into a pile’. So he doesn’t expect you to tidy up after him but leaves his stuff in the way all over the house. But somehow he is the one who is tidy and you are untidy....

Same with shopping. Why is it that food is coming out of your money and not the ‘together’ Money? As why is he not doing some shopping if you can’t do it yourself? Or why are you not going together at the weekend?

It sounds like either you are putting yourself down all the time, because of self esteem issues or because of the depression OR he has somehow convinced you he is a great man and you are the one with all the problems.
Either way, the best thing you can do is to take control of your life and build wo trying to seek his approval or wo wondering if this would be ok for him.
Counselling could be a good idea (NOT CBT) to help yourself u sort out what you are and aren’t happy with, how to move your life forward etc....

Err.... it’s not because it’s ‘legally’ his car that you would t be able to keep one of the cars.
I mean any decent person would acknowledge that they don’t need two cars and would leave one to the other person. Esp if it’s the one you chose and have been using for years.

Same with savings btw. They might in his name but when you get divorce, everything goes into the common pit and you are entitled to half of that. It doesn’t matter if it’s his name or not. (Same with pensions etc too btw)

This is why it is so I portant that you go and see a solicitor to see exactly what you would be able to get.
Even if it’s £5k from the savings you have (jointly), this is something that will help you get back on your feet.

Notstayingin,

Where have I laid blame for any of my prior and continued lack of career ambition and drive focus whatever at my husbands door?

I did have money up until I quit my job because I wasn't coping very well, mostly as I don't use much and have no transport my costs are pretty minimal but it has become a focus point for me now because I am painfully aware that the situation I am in requires some money.

I'm not looking for anyone to come and go poor you hard done by victim have life handed to you on a plate but nor am I going to say none of this situation is his fault at least in part.

I've been blamed for making excuses for him now I'm being told basically I'm not taking enough responsibility for myself?

I'm tired and cross but no that is not how it is thanks.

No I don't feel abused and I really don't think he is an abusive or bad person at all in any way I just think that he has basically thought of me as a favourite chair, beloved, comfy, etc but you don't worry about the chair up and leaving you if you don't keep the upholstery in good nick do you?
Some of the things he's done have been thoughtless and unintended, some things he has done repeatedly and denied doing them a split second later which I say is gaslighting and an abusive tool but not a total descriptor for a person in this instance.

I mentioned the freedom program because I think I have allowed my boundaries to be blurred and not put enough focus on my own needs, making myself small to enable the person I love sometimes and when I say to that person that what they have done so many times over the years really really upsets me and they do nothing about it.... well the freedom program might have helped me get here quicker because what has been happening has been unacceptable for me and I hoped it would get better and believed him when he said he would change.

A mixed bag as all humans are but abusive my husband is not I don't think.

I agree counselling would be good for me and contacted a counselling service a few weeks ago, I am awaiting an appointment.

I'm sorry I'm really having a hard time keeping my focus on what I've not responded to yet but with the shopping and tidying.

The tidying you honestly have to take my word for it, we equally did the dishes, floors general tidy rounds, he did the bathroom and I did laundry for example - it evened out. My clutter piles are in contained areas, his just spread so a screwdriver lives on the living room table getting pushed out of the way unless he needs it in which case it usually moves out of the house again or I put it next to the door if I need the whole table.
The clutter doesn't bother me and really if this were a fixable situation I would have to up my house game again because I've totally stopped like I said.
I shouldn't have said it as it's not really relevant I'm sorry I'm so tired and all over the shop that it was something that popped into my head and really it has no bearing on this in the grand scheme.
Red herring folks sorry!

The shopping does stick a bit for me though that he hasn't gone.
The money side is he pays the majority of outgoings etc as proportionally he has always been the higher earner.
I didn't want to join finances until we were married, I had a small debt that I was paying off - now paid - and he had savings as aforementioned, at the time it seemed pointless to join our finances because we had far less in outgoings at that point and we had a lot of disposable income between us.

Before marrying we discussed finance and agreed that upon marrying we would get joint finances etc.
After marrying he seemed to have forgotten all that talk and didn't understand why I wanted a joint account or what we would use it for - disclaimer at this time we were unusually earning roughly equal for about 6 months/1 year so I am not a gold digger!
It took me months to set up an appointment with him to open the account and now it gets used for rent and that's it as my name is not on any bills - which as someone pointed out with the lease is great now but no use if you need to get the telephone, gas etc fixed because they won't talk to me and what funds I had in my bank at any given time was really not a huge amount of money.

I'm not sure why he hasn't just done the shopping himself, he did offer to take me shopping twice when I mentioned (recurring problem) that we used to have an active life of doing things together and now if I want to do something I have to go alone or with a friend and I can't be having with hanging round the house again but really that's not what I'm after and call me a horrible selfish git but I'm feeling too crap to traipse around the supermarket right at this moment.

I just don't feel entitled to anything, I know legally I probably am but it feels wrong for some reason.

I'm sure he'd let me keep the car but I couldn't afford to run it anyway and in the City I'd have no need for it. Out here I could do with it but I'm managing without as can catch a lift if I want to go anywhere but honestly don't have anywhere pressing to be.

Start making some small steps.

First, doctor - low mood and negative thought patterns. You're all reasons why you can't, you need to be more can.

Second, look around at solicitors. Some do a free initial consultation.

Third, get yourself on a freedom programme course if you feel it will help.

Fourth, start applying for jobs (and apprenticeships) . You don't have to love a job or see a career in it to get value from it. It doesn't have to be forever. All it has to do is help you dig yourself out of where you are now.

whatmind I wasn't trying to put you down but I stand by what I wrote. Re-read your first few posts. They are essays about everything he has and hasn't done. It does read like you blame him for not being what you had hoped for. That's fine, of course you are bitter and upset that your marriage is ending. But I'm saying, now stop seeing everything through that 'him' lense, take responsibility for your life and focus on you.

Notstayingin

Fair enough I understand how it comes across as blaming him and just listing of all the things I feel he's done wrong.
The reason I did explain so much was purely from trying to get across why I feel the way I do now, yes I am bitter and upset that my marriage is ending but what I blame him for is for not being who he said he was, who he made himself out to be for the majority of our relationship but when it came time to act on all the talk he never did.

It's so hard to explain without totally outing myself to anyone who may be reading so I have been putting out vague examples, some of which have happened and some of which are as best I can describe them at present.

I am taking responsibility for my life and beginning to focus on myself or I wouldn't have asked for a divorce, I know I can just get on and do it without his permission but I'd prefer to give him a heads up that it is definite and final this time.

I don't care in general about career or money but now I do need a job and some funds, it would be nice to find a "passion" but I've reached the age I'm at without having figured anything out without the world ending.

I am basically saying that I understand life goes on and a lot of people have it worse and no he wasn't a terrible person who beat me etc but I am entitled to a major wobble right now.

For all the best laid plans etc it's gone really runny and there are things I am mad at him particularly about, I think that's ok and normal.

I don't know what time I started posting but I know it was really late/very early. You are a stranger and don't know me so it's hard for you to get a good idea of what is going on when I am emotional, tired and may not be explaining very well what it is that I'm really upset about.

The main point is that my life as I thought it was and as I thought it was going to turn out till I died is not going to happen any more.
Everything is turned on it's head.

I may have instigated by asking for a divorce but it's still a big thing for me. I fully intended to marry once and to the right person, life didn't turn out like that, some of it is absolutely my fault but I'm not here saying I'm leaving my husband and here are all the reasons he may have found fault in me, I'm saying I'm leaving my husband because he does xyz and I can't deal with it any more and that's caused a bit of a cascade. At that time of night/morning I have no RL people to talk this over with and am getting too inside my own head.

Thought relationships could be helpful to me as a sounding board, info gathering on next steps etc and a place to vent that I have been neglected by my husband and hope that people understand that that really hurts and as I have said I am struggling to explain IRL sometimes but that doesn't mean I'm making anything up.

I know it's giant chunks I've written but I don't have anywhere or anyone else to talk to right now and I wasn't meaning to go on a bashing expedition just explain why I feel the way I do.

I skimmed through that and I got the impression he irritates you at a fundamental level, but he's not abusive, not really terrible, just mildly incompetent at some things. I bet you're not sexually attracted to him at all? That would be part of it, with the initial attraction having well and truly worn off, your fundamental incompatibility is now apparent.

But from his perspective, it can't be much fun living with you either. All this constant pressure he must feel to meet your demands (which seem vague) have led to him being very evasive to try and keep the peace. Whatever your exact issues with him are, they seem to be fundamental to his personality. You can't expect much change with those. Just bite the bullet and divorce him. This relationship sounds well and truly done.

I'm sorry this has actually made me feel even more awful, I'm going to ask the admin to remove the thread. I'm hugely embarrassed and not at all coming across in the way I've meant to.

Thank you everyone who gave me some advice and practical steps to take I will try very hard to keep in mind what you have said.

I'm not flouncing and I apologise for getting a bit cross at some posters I just am a bit raw to be doing this and it was probably a bad idea to post when I was already so emotional.

Oh fuck one last reply

actually i find him highly attractive, always have! Singularly so in fact! Our sex life while we had it was amazing but it has gone and my sex drive with it because my husband makes me feel totally ignored!

I know I'm vague here because I'm trying not to out myself but do you really think he has no idea what I'm talking about?

Repeated big things, lies like actual big lies, making major decisions for both of us without consulting me? There minus a lot of the waffle a couple of the things I have serious problems in my marriage with.

Sound reasonable for me to be upset by any of those things?

I love my husband so fucking much and would have done anything for him happily but I am so sick of not registering for him and my needs always being pushed to the back burner over all and sundry and actually find him very physically attractive thank you.

Cheers for making assumptions though

and cause you skim read you missed where I asked for a divorce already! It's in the bloody title!"

Now I'm flouncing!

That does make sense and it’s completely understandable that you are really upset and raw about everything that’s happening. And in that context my post wasn’t very well timed or helpful and I apologise for that. I don’t think you are coming across badly at all by the way.

Thank you notstayingin

I have asked for the thread to be removed because I can't cope with trying to explain and defend myself.

FWIW I don't think it's been fun for him to live with me recently no but over 3ish years I've hardly been the hen pecking wife constantly pressuring him for ever changing things, just what he offered freely from the start that never appeared in terms of partnership.

Oh jeso not constantly pressuring him for that either just that.... fuck occasionally assserting your needs in a relationship doesn't make you overbearing and when you are ignored saying enough is enough doesn't make you someone with ridiculous standards.

I'm not explaining well right now.

He is passive aggressive.
Look this up it will explain everything. Living with someone like this is “crazy making” - as it is all covert and others can’t see through his Mr Nice Guy mask.

He can’t communicate properly, is terrified that any confrontation will escalate so he withdraws and spends his time covertly frustrating you with a lots of little smug acts of sabotage that he his trying to get under the radar - death by 1000 cuts.

This leaves you confused, frustrated, angry, exhausted and depressed.

It is covert abuse. Call it neglect if you want. He doesn’t hear you. He has withdrawn from you. He doesn’t prioritise you. Underneath his laid back persona he has seething contempt for you.

You don’t need to blame him. But just take responsibility for moving on graciously now. No need to fight - just decide that you are not compatible and need to find your peace and happiness elsewhere.

He doesn’t need to agree to any of YOUR next steps - in fact EXPECT his to obfuscate and obstruct not because he wants you to stay - just because he wants revenge.

Take little steps each day. Your “depression” will evaporate once you are out of this quietly toxic relationship.

You have tried far too hard for far too long with this relationship.

He is secretive and passive aggressive.

Therefore, he is not meeting you half way and 'resisting' your efforts to connect.

But as other people have pointed out, you need to focus on the one person you can control: you (not on him). It is time to get going OP.

You are clearly intelligent.

Can you say what happened after school?

When did you leave, did you go to 6th form/college?
What GCSEs? Any A levels? Any NVQs?

What jobs have you had?

Can you drive (ie, are you independent)?

What are you good at?

Are you a big picture creative person, or are you a details person?
Lets focus on the most important person here, you.

How long does it usually take a reported thread to be deleted please?

Thank you for the posters who seem to understand a bit better what I am trying to say, I still wouldn't necessarily use the term abusive about my husband but he's not been kind or thoughtful in a lot of ways that have inevitably hurt.

Communication is one of the things I feel is a problem here too,

I'm happy taking any job that pays right now so not fussed about finding my niche but while I wait for the thread removal I may as well answer about school etc.

Good standard grades, did highers, got middle of the road scores. 6th year I stayed as no idea what to do and took a few modules I liked the look of and hadn't had experience of before, computers and art and maths I think pass grades in all but the maths was a foundation - my nemesis!

I've gone over the majority of working history main focus on customer service/hospitality roles with office work and manual labour explained above.

I can drive and have access to a car which is currently not usable at present but small problems that are fixable long term.

I don't really know what I'm particularly good at, I have a lot of random interests and like creative or outdoor hobbies, I like animals but cant do vet stuff as too squeamish.

Had a prior post in AIBU about dog kennels set up but that wouldn't be as possible now as husband's job would have facilitated a very small start up for me at some point in the future. If I move to the city land/kennels would be at a premium to rent/buy and there are thousands of competitors wedged into a small area there.

I'm alright at drawing, tend to go more cartoon than real life but only once in a blue moon, enjoyed playing with modelling clay and have made a few wallace and grommit rabbits and animals with polymer clay in miniature for fun but it takes me forever to do anything arty as it's not something I do regularly and only do as and when the feeling strikes.

I can use a computer and am relatively literate, my numeracy capabilities have improved somewhat with age but I still rely heavily on the calculator because I often still get flustered with simple maths and get it hilariously wrong - I worked in a finance leaning office environment so ironic but I was always told I made very few mistakes and was efficient in my work which I think is because I fear the numbers and quadruple check! And I like to get stuff done.

I enjoy english, history in a how people lived in various ages rather that dates of important historical documents and events kind of way.

I like random facts and take a lot of pleasure out of the varied interesting things you can find on the internet that you never knew existed.

I've not travelled and honestly upping sticks and moving away from family and friends for a total life change taking an apprenticeship sounds a little exciting but mainly absolutely terrifying!

Sorry I've just no idea, hence my mainly for the most part being ok working whatever job is available and facilitating my husbands career was no bother or main change from what I was already doing.

I've always had a faint longing to find something I felt I was really good at or interested in rather than just averagely good at a job I really don't care one way or the other about past doing my best.
I've looked into things at various times over the years but nothing seemed right you know?

MN won't necessarily delete the thread.

You can always hide it if it's distressing you.

Thank you category I'll do that as I can't help but keep coming back to check if it's gone yet.

Again I appreciate all the practical advice I've been given.

I think reading your posts that your relationship is dead beyond repair. You are no longer compatible if you ever were in the first place. When you start to focus on little piles of stuff and the sex life is dead then it's game over OP.

You're entitled to benefits if you split up. Sort out somewhere to go and apply for benefits. Then take things from there.

Some people are just crap at understanding coercive control. They're the ones who focus on tiny examples and ignore the overall pattern.

They're the ones who should be embarrassed, not you, op.

Freedom Programme sounds like just what you need.

@whatmind

you are clearly very intelligent.

Can you get your hands on £75? I seriously suggest you go onto www.morrisby.com and take a careers guidance test. Answer as honestly as possible.

Then based on what they suggest, start training in that and stick to it. Doesn't matter how small the job is, it is the bottom of the rung to you getting back in control of your life.

Someone else noted your husband is passive aggressive. This is completely crazy making because they deny their anger and so subtly provoke you until you express it for them. That reaffirms that they are calm and you are the crazy one.

It is extremely hard to become aware of, and to keep your temper because they are sabotaging you the whole time.

I won't say LTB but I will say focus on the one person you can control - yourself. The more in charge of your life you are, the stronger you get, the less you react and the clearer the forward path becomes.

Good luck OP. When you are earning your own money, saving into a pension plan etc you will see the wood instead of the trees.