Excuses or perception?

[Ritascornershop]

For me this is it, I definitely can’t deal with this, but I’m wondering if this would be a generally held opinion?

The guy I’ve been seeing started stalking my Instagram account. I enjoy photography,
taking and viewing photos - of interiors, landscapes, food, that sort of thing. People write captions below their photos and sometimes I comment - either because something they said sparks a thought, or because I think maybe they’ll look at my photos (& I appreciate feedback), or because commenting means the algorithm will bring their photos to the top of my feed.

He got it into his head that I was “pursuing” guys on Instagram. Massive eyeroll from me as that was/is the last thing on my mind. He’d go to accounts I follow and if I made a comment on a man’s account (it barely registers with me whether or not account holders are male or female) he’d start worrying about it. We’ve had two blowouts about it and after the first I thought he’d wrapped his head around how innocent it is and that so long as I wasn’t being flirty or trying to meet anyone irl it was fine.

But no! Yesterday, it turns out, he’d been looking for evidence again and had found that I’d commented (one of well over a hundred comments on a popular account) that I was sorry a photographer he left our region as we (people who follow him) would miss seeing our region through his lens, and I hoped he and his girlfriend enjoyed their new locale. Totally inconsequential to me, when grilled I couldn’t even remember the insta-name of the guy. And the photographer guy appears to be around the age of one of my kids by the way, so not someone (for a myriad of reasons) I’d consider in that way. Besides which, as I’ve told guy I was seeing, when I’m with someone I’m not fishing around for other men.

Anyway, guy I was seeing (can’t do this anymore so have ended it) said I was “going after”, “pursuing this guy”, “flirting with”, etc etc. And it really really rattled me. I feel policed, misunderstood, accused ... all kinds of hurtful things.

My question being - is he wildly unreasonable? I feel he is, but would anyone find it worrying if their partner commented on peoples’ photography accounts? Or cat accounts? Or recipe accounts or whatever? I never follow people who put themselves in the photos as I don’t want to see some stranger ruining the view, so I barely know what this young guy looks like. It’s just all so weird and confusing to me. I’ve never had anyone jealous of me and I hate it and can’t be dealing with it.

Forgot to say, he doesn’t think he necessarily has depression, I do as he says he doesn’t enjoy anything anymore and he’s just so anxious and down. He’s started saying that his family and friends take advantage of him and that no-one besides me cares for him.

It’s not you it’s him it’s his problem your behaviour was normal open and honest please don’t question your judgment or blame yourself

Yes, toxic people and predators can sniff this out and it makes you a target. As I said up post, not knowing what is normal suggests you have been gaslit alot in life and you may find it helpful to learn more about this type of abuse so you can start challenging thoughts more.

Why did he show you his phone to prove he wasnt doing anything suspicious? Did you ask to see it or accuse him of anything? If not, that is the equivalent of a kid stood next to his crying brother and saying 'I didn't hit him'. He's telling on himself and then using the fact that you didn't immediately give him what he wanted (access to your phone) as a way to make you feel bad for doing absolutely nothing wrong. You say he is supportive and kind etc, I guarantee if you give yourself time you will start to see the relationship for what it was as men like this are incapable of genuinely supporting another person.

You do realise it's not normal to lie to big yourself up and screams the hallmarks of narcissist. I suspect he is very covert and playing the long game but make no mistakes, he is abusive and it would have gotten alot worse.

He’s started saying that his family and friends take advantage of him and that no-one besides me cares for him.

That old chestnut. So he does play the victim then. Covert narcs often will come across or claim to be depressed. Even if he was, depression doesnt turn you into a controlling arsehole. Theres no justification for this at all.

Watch this I'd suggest all her videos actually

So he is controlling and jealous? Block him on everything and move on. Imagine how bad he would be the further down the line you get, and stop explaining yourself you have done nothing wrong.

Thanks Jaffa and Alfie. Jaffa, that’s very interesting what you said about being gaslit a lot and that’s why I posted. I really do struggle a lot with figuring out if people’s shitty is okay, if I’ve somehow caused it, if I’m “over-reacting” (exhusband called me a baby when I’d cry from his abuse). So even though I know I can’t hack this nonsense anymore from Recent Guy, I somehow wondered if his reactions were okay. I knew I wouldn’t notice if he commented on someone’s Instagram, but I thought maybe I was being cold or something.

I just thought I’d finally found a good one. He was appalled at how my exh treated me, but he found the one who thing exh never went on about - the exh was never jealous as I was “only pretty, not beautiful, other men will never look at you” - and he hurt me that way. His loss.

The problem is, once you've been with an abusive man, it's common to go for the exact opposite but you have to learn that there are different types of abusive men (but they all have the same motives of power and control). Your exH was probably an overt narcissist (my exH was too) which is why you are finding it hard to recognise abuse from a covert narcissist (which is what I suspect your exP is) and this is a common trap to fall into because coverts work very hard to build the mask of someone kind, caring and supportive. Many of them are well respected in the community and bang on about what a nice person they are and all they have done for charity but if you really listen closely, they always talk about things in a way that paints them in a positive light. They have a victim hero narrative that plays out over and over. They often claim to be depressed and have had a hard life, people treat them terribly and they haven't done anything wrong etc. Also, they can come across as supportive when actually they are drawing out personal information about you that will be used later as an attack. Many of my covert narcs pretented to be horrified if I told then about my abusive exH but they were just as abusive themselves but in a different way. I fell for it many times. These are manipulators and very skilled liars.

Its great that you recognised the red flag here and ended the relationship. That shows you have come a long way already but if you do the work I suggested above, I guarantee you will see things much more clearly about this guy.

There are some really good videos about healing from codependency on youtube. Lisa Romano is my favourite. Also, have you ever considered you have PTSD rather than depression/anxiety? The reason I ask is that I've had depression/anxiety for most of my life and thought it was just part of my DNA and how I was wired but I've just discovered i actually have PTSD from previous DV curable. I have just started EMDR which I'm hoping will work.

Jaffa, I didn’t ask to see his phone, god no. He offered it up to show me he was trustworthy and then later said he’d told his friends I didn’t reciprocate and “they all said that was weird”.

I did think it was really off that he’d big himself up, but I felt sorry for him that he felt that was necessary and also thought his good qualities merited sticking around. Or that’s what I told myself, really my exh just got me really really good at shutting down emotionally and ignoring weird behaviour.

I think there is a good side to him, he wants to do the right thing to an extent, he’s done so much for me over the years (listening and practical help). My exh is so nasty and just mean that Recent Guy comes off really well in comparison. He’s always telling me how wonderful I am. But this controlling and jealous stuff is so awful and hurtful and really just weird, I won’t have it. It doesn’t feel sane to me, and certainly doesn’t feel healthy.

I think that makes so much sense about developing boundaries as then narcs won’t be attracted!!

Thanks for the videos, I’ll check them out when my son goes to sleep.

I do think I’ve got ptsd, for sure. The first time this jealousy thing came up, a few months ago, I totally panicked, spent days crying off and on at work. And I wanted to deal with it less emotionally, but the crying and panic got in the way. Prior to that I hadn’t cried in ages, but I was so frightened by it. I remember saying to him “I know how this works”, meaning I knew this was absolutely the start of abuse and it scared me half to death. He begged forgiveness, said it would never happen again and I loved him to bits and said “one more chance”. And I meant it. He went there again, says it’s his anxiety, but imo adults should be able to control their crazy thoughts better if they’re mentally okay. Depression doesn’t cause this, fear of loss of control does.

Jaffa, I didn’t ask to see his phone, god no. He offered it up to show me he was trustworthy and then later said he’d told his friends I didn’t reciprocate and “they all said that was weird”.

Why would he need to prove he's trustworthy? If someone has to protest about being something it's often because they are not. It's the classic 'nice guy's thing where guys will say how nice they are but are usually anything but.

The fact that feelings of when you were in your abusive relationship come up when this guys is being abusive are almost akin to flashbacks of abuse. The way my counsellor described anxiety is that we are often told anxiety is towards nothing and we are often told to ignore it when actually anxiety is there to protect us and it's your brain recognising danger subconsciously and you need to relearn how to listen to what it is telling you. I've had that feeling before, like cold travelling up your spine when they do something that immediately reminds you off your ex and you feel sick but then in a few hours they have apologised and so you push it all to the back of your mind (because secretly you fear abandonment and this is less painful than ripping off the plaster and breaking up with them). Its also hard to admit to yourself that you have been duped by the very thing you swore you would never be with again.

I've been there and know those feelings too well. Your intuition was telling you something was off the first time he accused. Maybe, I would give someone one chance to get a little jealous if they sincerely apologised and explained why. If they did it again, knowing how much trauma the first time had caused me then you know for SURE he is not normal and doesnt give two fucks about you. This is a pattern of behaviour and had nothing to do with his anxiety. Ask yourself, you have anxiety and have been terribly abused but do you accuse him of cheating? No, because you like to give people the benefit of the doubt and realise that if you feel abit jealous, it is your problem and would never make it his. He hasn't done that which shows massive lack of emapthy and respect.

You need to see this man for what he is. He is every bit as bad as your exH, he just hides it from you better.

And his friends saying you not reciprocating was complete billshit. I doubt he told them at all because any normal persons response to that would be 'why the fuck would posting on IG bother you?'. This is also gaslighting OP. Altering reality to make you doubt yourself. What he is saying was unreasonable and you KNOW it which is why you felt so upset when he accused you.

Your perception of 'normal' is likely very skewed from previous abuse because you dont trust yourself to trust your gut. I promise you, it's the only thing you should listen to and never let anyone convince you your feelings are wrong

You say you feel misunderstood bu him. Here's why

Also, he is very likely to Hoover you with grand apologies and love gestures piled on with some sob story about why his depression pushed him to accuse you. Please prepare yourself for this and block him on everything.

Thanks Jaffa. I am getting better @ standing up for myself, but it’s not easy. My brother bullied me, my dad too (though dad could also be quite kind at times, and Recent Guy perhaps not coincidentally, looked a bit like my dad when dad was young - my dad died over 30 years ago & RG is younger than me). Then exh was a nightmare, absolutely classic abuser.

It’s just happened yesterday so maybe I’m too close, but I do feel Recent Guy has been having a battle with himself and recently the dark parts are winning.

I was really shocked he’d go there again as a) I’d explained to him once how innocent and inconsequential all of it was and b) as you say, knowing how traumatising I found it the first time how could he do it again?

It’s also weird as while he knows I’ve let a ton slide he saw last time that that was one thing I found intolerable. Maybe he couldn’t resist seeing if I’d let it go? Or maybe he wanted out and breaking my heart like this ensured it.

It's possible your dad and brother were both narcs as its common for codependents to have been raised by narcissists (my dad is a narc too). If you've been raised by a narc, you either become codependent or narcissistic (which may explain your brothers behaviour) as narcissism is rooted in childhood trauma just like codependency.

Have you heard of cognitive dissonance? It's where abuse victims find it very hard to accept someone is abusive because the abuser is simultaneously saying they love you and appearing supportive at times. I definitely get this with my dad as sometimes he can come across as very supportive but I'm always waiting for the next big outburst from him. It must be very difficult for you if he has passed away but it might be something you want to explore with a counsellor.

My exH was a very overt narc, who when he had me good and trapped, he didnt even try to hide his contempt for me (I.e was physically abusive and would outwardly call me names and criticise everything I did). The covert narcs I went on to date were very different from this and it was a much more subtle form of abuse that took much longer to become apparent but I often got those moments of what the fuck with them that you are having here.

When you say he knows you have 'let a ton slide' do you mean with him or your ex? Make no mistake, all he heard when you told him this was how easy a victim you will be. This is the start of the devalue stage and it can be very difficult to see the wood from the trees because one the whole, you feel sorry for him and see him as a poor tortured soul who is less culpable for his actions. This is a dangerous trap to fall into and I now actively avoid anyone who plays the sympathy card and uses it as an excuse to mistreat other people, however subtle. The best phrase that sums it up for me is "if you ever met the devil, he would want you to feel sorry for him". Look at Ted Bundy using the guise of a broken arm to trick his victims. Playing the victim is one of the biggest signs of narcissism and I really hope you start to recognise this in the future because if you like to save people then this really plays into your codependency.

Men who accuse you of cheating (especially those who do it repeatedly) use it as a way to isolate you as they want you to stop having an outside support network and therefore are easier to control. Trust me, this would have escalated if you had stayed and make no mistake that he knew exactly what he was doing the first and second time. I remember telling one of my covert narcs that my exH would always find issue with the amount of food I gave him and that even to this day I have a complex about serving people food. He pretended to be appalled by this but then a few months later he took issue with the same thing. Narcs gather information about you to be used against you at a later date and I think that's what your ex is doing now (I actually think he enjoyed the trauma he caused you by doing this).

Whether you are ready to accept it or not, either way he was not ready to be in a relationship because he hasn't dealt with his own demons and was projecting his crap onto you. I really hope you start to see things more clearly because I suspect he will not let you go easily and will be working hard to reel you back in at some point.

I hope you can see this when it happens (he may say he cant live without you or is suicidal, make lots of promises to change or go to therapy etc.) but if you believe this then you will be walking blindly into a whole other shit storm.

He's a liar, he's controlling, he's manipulative and he's every bit as bad as your ex. Please do not be fooled.

@Jaffacakesaremyfave and @Ritascornershop, I could be reading my own stories here. My first DH was an overt narcissist full of overspending, financial control, entitlement and grandeur, second DP was a covert passive aggressive who when I met him seemed amazing, disciplined, stable, all the qualities my DH was not.
I literally got the second DP out of my house on Friday after almost 4 years with him. I’d walked into that relationship after 13 years with DH constantly controlling and raging.

DP was very covert and similarly irrationally jealous (a bit like that I am Nicola film that just aired on Channel 4). I’d be accused of flirting with the neighbours the day I borrowed a hose pipe, I went abroad and met two male friends of my family who took me sightseeing, and that caused WEEKS of accusations. On the one hand I found myself justifying and defending myself whilst similarly being insulted at the disguised insults that went with it. The final straw was when he made me ‘unfriend’
a very very distant ex who then became a good platonic mate and then prevented me seeing him when I heard he got serious cancer.

From all my narcissistic recovery work I have done, I have learnt one key thing: Anytime you find yourself trying to defend, justify or explain “normal” behaviour to someone is a huge red flag.

Seeing an old friend with cancer is normal. Going sightseeing with friends is normal (I’m not a “whore”). Chatting briefly to a neighbour is normal (I’m not a “flirt”). Commenting on a photographer’s work is normal (you’re not flirting/looking to cheat, etc).

I think you are doing amazing @Rita and your sense of intuition is spot on. Don’t doubt yourself.

“I know how this works”, meaning I knew this was absolutely the start of abuse and it scared me half to death

To be honest this is the only thing you should listen to which is your gut instinct. Your subconscious brain recognises he is abusive which is why you had the reaction you did (PTSD flashback). He talked you out of it though causing cognitive dissonance and gaslighting (so you stop listening to your instincts).

Think back to every bad situation in your life when you got that feeling and ignored it. Ask yourself if that feeling you ignored ever turned out to be wrong?

Victims of narc abuse are taught from childhood to ignore their own instincts and replace it with the narcissist narrative (e.g. you are over reacting, you are being unreasonable, you misunderstand etc.). The best way to protect yourself is to not betray your instincts and you have done so well to follow through this time and end it.

Have you read 'the gift of fear'? Its a really interesting read on the topic and could save your life one day. Also read Lundy Bancroft, why does he do that and do the freedom programme.

Oh, and by the way, it wasn’t excuses or perception, it was gaslighting!

(Making you doubt your own sense that it was perfectly normal to comment on a photographer’s work, who happened to be male).

@Bright, I love this "Anytime you find yourself trying to defend, justify or explain “normal” behaviour to someone is a huge red flag."

Pretty much sums up every relationship with a narc!! I'm so sorry you've been through similar too. My ex covert did the same, asked me to stop speaking to a very old ex that had become a friend and lived 100s of miles away (and had a GF).

I'm glad you have gotten rid of yours too and are on the journey of recovery xxx

Thanks for those insights. It’s all so weird to me, as honestly, no matter how much I rack my brains I can’t think of any time he was awful previously to a few months ago.

I don’t want to driip-feed, but what I think started all this was that back in late winter I said I thought we needed a break as he didn’t seem that into us. Wasn’t responding to texts, not making time for us etc. He totally panicked and begged me to take him back, that he’d do better. After maybe a month or so I said okay. And at first it seemed fine. But during that month he’d half taken on board what I’d said and half developed the idea that I was interested in someone else. He figured it must be someone online. This is when he began getting waaaaaay too interested in my Instagram.

Now most of the people I follow are women (I think, I’m really not paying attention to their sex). And some of the men I’m pretty sure are gay (judging by comments they make about other guys or photos of them all loved up by boyfriends in “stories”). But whatever, I’m not looking for “connections” as he kept putting it.

But the reason I gave him a second shot is because he’s always been so kind to me, and aside from not seeming that into me over the winter he’s been great. I can’t begin to list the times he’s helped me out in practical and emotional ways. I feel like telling him I needed a break triggered something in him and these bad characteristics that he’d buried came roaring out.

It’s such a shame, but it having happened twice I just know now he’s got it in him, it would get worse, and I just can’t live like that. My exh was so awful - financial abuse, emotionally abusive in pretty much every way you can imagine, hit me a few times. I can’t deal with someone trying to control me and accusing me of stuff I’d never do.

Jaffa I know you think it was calculated - it really didn’t seem like that to me. He looked authentically distraught that I was “pursuing” other men. But ya, it felt like a giant red flag that I was having to defend and explain perfectly normal stuff. This young guy (I’m guessing he’s around 30 years younger than me) mentioned his blog and so I, along with a lot of other people, clicked on that, read it and made a comment based on that (so it was two comments on two photos a couple of days apart - the fact that it was two photos and comments apparently showed to RG that I was super-invested!).

RG is not on Instagram (not sure if he had to make an account to stalk me), and so claims not to grasp how algorithms work, why I’d want to look at particular photographers’ work, etc. None of that seems hard to grasp to me. He knows that beauty is everything to me, he knows art is central to me. So why he would say “I guess I’m too old to understand social media” makes no sense. He’s bright, he’s younger than me, it’s not a difficult concept.

I’m going to miss the guy I fell in love with, he was great!! This prickly, weird, suspicious controller not at all.

I will watch more of the videos you’ve linked Jaffa and start looking at codependent stuff. I’ve read a little since you brought it up and it sounds on the money. I’d heard of it, of course, but it sounded like American pop-psychology so I never really gave the idea the time it deserved. I think it’ll really help me a lot to figure out why this happens to me. I’ve felt a lot that it was my fate to not have happy relationships, but maybe if I can address this down the road a long way, maybe. Or not, it’s not like there’s a ton of great single men at my age, but to know it’s not some mysterious shitty hand I’ve been dealt would help a lot actually.

I guess I think the first round of jealousy (which went on visibly to me for a week or two) could have been real to him, not calculated to oppress. The second round he should have known better. Both rounds were massively weird of course.

It all just felt so out of character to the guy I’ve known for years. He’s been my rock through thick and thin.

I slightly feel that subconsciously he wanted out and so engineered a crisis (subconsciously) as it makes zero sense. One of the other male instagrammers he fixated on the first time this came up also has tens of thousands of followers and lives on another continent (Recent one lives in the same country but another city).

I think you need to do more digging on this guy and you will realise all was not what it seemed. Coverts can appear to not be outright nasty and work hard to appear supportive and caring but theres so many red flags in the things you have said already.

I think HE was maybe cheating over winter because he became distant and then immediately after, he started accusing you of cheating (projection). This was also a test (all narcs test) to see what you will tolerate. You took him back and that was his free pass to escalate his abuse. I would put money on him saying "check my phone to see I'm innocent" was around this time right? I'd also put money on him being on dating sites so have a look for yourself.

Was he very full on in the beginning saying you were his soul mate and he needed you? Is he able to hold down a job or is constantly having fights or fallout with people around him or at work? Does he contribute financially (equally to you?) or ask to borrow money from you? Does he have few close friends if any? Have all his previous relationships ended badly and he doesnt speak to any exes? Does he have an addiction of any sort (weed, alcohol, porn, gambling?), does he have children he doesnt see or doesnt have a good relationship with? Does he seem jealous of other people or overly competitive? Does he brag about achievements or go on at length about how he's a victim or circumstance?

I used to think I was destined to shit relationships but learning about codependency and people pleasing has changed my life. Just because he was less abusive than your ex doesnt mean he wasnt abusive.

My sister is terribly codependent and dated a guy for 4 years who was so obviously a covert narc to me. He did all the above I listed and even though she broke up with him because she finally caught him cheating, she remains in denial and got with another idiot almost immediately (codependents hate to be single). She actually forgot things he had done over the years (including being very critical of her kids behaviour) and isolating her from her family by banging on about how we all hated him (I did but hid it well).

I think you need to spend some time healing and possibly look at EMDR for PTSD. Do not date for a while until you have healed because you will likely attract another abuser. Learning to love yourself is the most important thing you could ever do and I promise you it will change your life xx

You are right, he knows you are not cheating. It feels like madness because it is madness. He may have engineered it because a) he wants you to beg and plead your innocence (control) or b) he wants a break for a while to persue his other narc supply. Either way it's part of narcissistic discard which you should read up on.

I think the fact that he was your friend for years has clouded your judgement. You never really get to know these people until you are in a romantic relationship which is why you feel he is now jeckyl and hyde.

The bad you are seeing is the real him and if you really look at his character closely you will begin to see he is not the man you think he is.

I definitely need a break from men and also to deal with my ptsd.

To answer your questions about him; he’s had the same job for about 6 years now, we’re in the same sector, I hear good things about him. He is a very involved dad and seems close to his kids. He’s given me money over the years, has always paid for meals out etc. He’s always been very generous, even though his salary isn’t big. He doesn’t have any addictions and has close friends (friends going back to school days in some cases). He gets along well with people. He does brag a lot - or did, he’s mostly gotten a ton better about this.