DD desperately upset about Ex injunction -- what to do?

[thepeopleversuswork]

My ex is subject to a non-molestation order after a long series of abusive stuff including fake suicide threats etc, culminating in a death threat earlier this year which was the final straw and which led to him being arrested and charged. I was granted the non-molestation order in May for a year. He has since breached the order, was charged and found guilty and was sentenced to community service etc.

Ex is allowed contact with my DD through a third party only (in this case my childminder, who has some previous experience of this and is totally reliable and trustworthy). Ex is constantly pushing my DD to get me to "allow" direct contact to take place (ie without the supervision of the childminder, which in practice means I would have to do a handover to him as there's no-one else who can). I've held firm on this until now even though my DD is applying lots of pressure to be allowed to see him. He's also done a lot of unhelpful and spiteful stuff such as making spurious allegations to social services about me.

Childminder is off on holiday and can't provide the support so there's currently no way for DD to see her dad for a couple of weeks. Technically the non-mol doesn't apply to me so there's nothing to stop me handing her over to him for an hour's contact and picking her up afterwards. I'm obviously loathe to do this, partly for my own security, partly because of the precedent it sets with him, and partly because my lawyer has advised me not to as it could undermine the injunction if anything happened in the future.

My DD had a meltdown this evening about pretty much everything and when I got to the bottom of it it was basically about wanting to see her dad. She phoned him and he knowing I was in the room in the background begged me to allow her to see him. My DD was then desperately desperately upset and railed at me for blocking her from seeing her dad.

I'm absolutely at my wits' end. I know allowing contact to happen is the wrong thing to do but I'm terrified of damaging my daughter -- she already thinks that I'm the bad guy and that I'm cruelly keeping her away from her dad. If I block contact again she will hate me forever.

Should I cave just this once and chaperone her to a meeting? Is there any way of moving this forward constructively? I can't see how I can justify doing this but I also can't live with the guilt of what its doing to her and seeing her so upset. I've always been absolutely determined for our relationship not to have an impact on her and for us to put her welfare over our own.

It does get better. When you become the 'safe' parent, she gets a safe place "the rock who isn't affected by the storm" is how a womens aid worker described it to me.
It WAS really hard, I felt awful for the first 7/8 months as if I was constantly saying "I'm sorry you're hurt...".

lilmishap I know. It's all down to me. That's fine with me and I don't mind being kicked for it and I don't even mind if she hates me sometimes. That's my job and I do it willingly. I just can't bear to see him manipulating and breaking her heart. It destroys me.

You know you need to be age appropriate truth to your DD

"Daddy did/said some very bad things to Mummy. I know you love him and want to see him but the Judge is very wise and you can only see Daddy when x can be there because of what Daddy did."

"Daddy made bad choices, this is why he isn't allowed to see you whenever you want anymore"

If you give in once, that'll be the beginning of giving in all the time. If you believe you had good reason to establish yhis order than stick by it. His willingness to upset and manipulate your child shows you are right about him. Best to have one definitive discussion with your child, make it age appropriate, allow her to talk and hear her out. Just hearing them out can sometimes make all the difference. Then lay out how things will be and end the discussion. Be firm. Any wavering will allow room for manipulation and keep the drama going. Stay strong and do what you know is right for you and your child.

You Can't give in, I agree with the PP who suggested saying yes if dad finds someone you both know that can help you with drop off and pick up. They can't argue with that

He is manipulating your daughter to get at and control you. Horrible man causing his daughter so much pain and shame on the courts for allowing this to happen.

You, however need to stay strong. You cannot see him. I would at this point block his number and only unblock once he starts acting like an adult and stops causing distress to your daughter.

Don't undermine the non-molestation order - you have to think of the long term consequences.

The childminder will be back soon, this is temporary, you need to stay firm.

Absolutely do not do it.. the court will not beven impressed if you have to go back. Try and explain to your daughter simply what's happening. Eventually I got a non contact order with a different judge. Was in a similar situation.

RandomMess yes I think you're right. I've tried very hard not to have to tell her that but I think it has to be d one now. The inconsistency and lack of clarity is now starting to hurt her.

I'm wondering if his badgering of your daughter to basically pressurise you to go against the spirit of the court order isn't grounds for you to get even more safeguards put in place - he clearly doesn't understand why he isn't allowed direct contact, doesn't give a toss about it even if he does understand and isn't above manipulating his daughter (who he is supposed to love and want to do his best for) to get at you. All the more reason not to offer any alternatives, to stay strong and follow the court order to the letter, to not enable his piss poor parenting crap / manipulation and also (sorry) to start drawing a line under your daughter's constant whining - be kind but firm if possible, otherwise it's going to become a war of attrition and you need to remember the bigger picture and how you got to this point. You're the responsible parent and, hard though it is, you need to demonstrate that to your 8 year old, even if she doesn't like it.

I had to explain something similar much younger to my kids. They can get it. Give examples. You need to give her tools for dealing with her Dad and pronto. She's being set up for a lifetime of this shit.

I often give my kids moral dilemmas from Mumsnet to get them to think about stuff critically. They love it.

mrssmith yes it totally is against the spirit of the order and he's trying to break down the legal protection I've put in place. The problem is, as I've explained further up, I've already tried and failed to put an injunction in place covering her and don't have the money to try again.
But yes all the more reason to stand firm on this.
Wallywobbles yes - time for a serious talk with her about this I think.

There is a difference between 'not badmouthing him' and 'not telling your daughter anything at all'.

If you don't tell her anything, it leaves a vacuum for him to fill with shit and he can just manipulate her, like he did you - only she is 8 and far more vulnerable.

I know it is hard because he is her dad and she will be upset but she does need to know why there are rules in place otherwise it is completely confusing and easily makes you look like a bitch.

@RandomMess has posted good examples of what to start saying.

I have been in the exact same position as you 3 years ago. Except her father took great offence to the non-mol and decided my punishment would be to never see his daughter again. My daughter witnessed everything that man put me through. When the awkward questions about dad pop up I have to explain to her that what dad did to mum is not acceptable and that the police are trying to protect us so they have told dad to stay away until he can treat us better. Of course she still gets upset about it. Fathers day at school is hard for her when all the other children are making cards for their dads. The school picked up on this and have referred her to speak with a councillor that specialises in children that have witnessed domestic violence and no longer have a relationship with one of the parents. They explain in a child friendly way what is happening and why. She starts in September so I cant comment yet on how helpful it is. I really feel for you because it took me years to build up the courage to protect us, because I knew he would make her suffer to get at me. But 3 years later I can honestly say it's the best thing I've ever done. I've never seen life more clearly. I'm never stressed anymore. I dont worry that hes around every corner waiting for me. My child doesn't have to put up with the awful things he used to do and say. Its hard to watch your children sad at first but it gets easier with time.

When she's so miserable about it it makes me feel so bad that I haven't been able to protect her from it.

But you are protecting her. It's not your fault your dd is hurting. It's her dad that is doing all this stuff meaning the non mol is needed. She's being emotionally abused by him with all this manipulation. Stand firm, you're doing the right thing.

Sorry I should have said domestic abuse not violence

Seriously, hold firm. If you facilitate handover then you will really weaken your case for not doing it on a regular basis in the future, inconsistency will lose you credibility. It sounds like you are in a horrible situation but an eight year old can't (and shouldn't be expected to) understand the situation so unfortunately you end up dealing with the fallout from her dad's bad behaviour. Good luck x

The judge obviously doesn't think his behaviour warrants cutting him off from his daughter so I think you should stop pushing for that because it will make you look spiteful. Especially if your daughter is asked her opinion and says she desperately wants to see him more often.

Personally, I'd find someone else to arrange contact or meet in a public place.

I think sometimes we have to see that a terrible partner is a loving and much wanted parent and separate that. Even if we are angry, hurt or scared.

Some very, very wise posters here. Take the advice given, no good will come of giving in. He is using your child to get at you, don't become complicit in making her a weapon against you.

Look online for your nearest self referral contact centre - our local cathedral has one for instance that you pay a nominal fee to use.

I'm assuming that he is not considered a threat to his daughter if he's allowed unsupervised contact so between you and him you need a way to facilitate contact - please remember your dd has done nothing wrong and wants to see her dad.

To the posters saying OP needs to facilitate contact - NO she doesn't and shouldn't. her ex is merely manipulating DD to harass OP.

OP please stay strong, do not facilitate contact - he can do this himself through a solicitor if he's so keen. You have been given some great tools here how to manage your DD's constant pleading. Use them, be the rock she needs.

You have had excellent advice on how to talk to your DD. I found at 8 years old my DD felt she understood the adult world and could determine what happened it was a very turbulent time for us.
Contact with my Ex for my DD was restricted for a whole series of reasons which I stuck firm to. At about 10/11 she started to realise the true reality and started to value the protection I had given her. Now at 15 she can see the whole situation and appreciates how hard it was to keep her safe.
It will be tough, but stick to the Legally advice you have had.

I'm sorry but you need to take charge here and sit her down and tell her in an age appropriate way that you her Dad is upset but he should not be speaking to her about this and the fact that he is is unfair on her and she needs help to manage it and while you're sorry she's feeling so awful about it this is how it has to be for now. YOU aren't bad mouthing him by doing this. You have been forced into managing a situation he has created. Under no circumstances can you give in to this. She's eight and at the minute she is only hearing one side and it is that side that is damaging her. She needs help to manage and understand this and at the moment she's only getting input from one horribly abusive person.

He probably loves his daughter and wants to see her. People make awful mistakes all the time and it rarely speaks of a lack of love for their children.

I do understand that it is popular to punish ex partners for not being the partner they should have been by keeping them away from their children though so I am not surprised that this thread has this tine.