It's an AIBU re DN

[mrsboothroydsholidaydancer]

... but don't have the stomach for AIBU and would like some advice

Apologies if long but do not want to drip feed.

My niece (DN) is 16. I’ve had relationship with her since she was 8 years old. DN is my brother’s (DB) daughter, from his first marriage where he left when DN was born for OW. I’m NC with DB as he was abusive to me (including physical violence when I was a teen), then to his wife (DN’s mother) and to his subsequent partners. I sort of moved on from that in the intervening years and had only sporadic contact but in the last few years after a long period of therapy I realised that I didn’t want to have a relationship with an abusive, alcoholic who always creates drama. I live abroad (London) and visit my home country couple of times a year and as we were seemingly incapable of having a relationship that didn’t include some sort of spectacular fallout caused by him or his partner that would come from nowhere eg. We’d sit to dinner, he’d provoke something with DM with a snidy comment and then throw a plate and go, partner in tow, i decided to go completely NC. My DM is also now very LC with him for the same reason although he lives down the road so for the sake of politeness they'll exchange hellos.

When we still had more regular contact years ago, I’d be seeing DN from first marriage who is a bright, engaging child, during my visits. I engaged with her properly since she was about 8. I’d send gifts, always see her when I came to visit and have a niece/Aunty relationship with her. Partly also as DB was such an arse to her and very often would dump her at my mum’s where I was staying where ostensibly he was having her for a weekend visit. I felt for the girl. Her mother, although I realise that she was in an abusive relationship with DB and therefore also a victim of this situation can be a bit of a CF. Always bringing DN to my mum’s house at short notice. Often dropping her off without even coming into the house to say thank you or just hello. Telling me that she needed money as she was having financial issues then blowing that money on expensive cosmetics and showing off to my mum straight after. I tried to keep DN out of this, choosing to see it as an issue with her mother. I stayed clear of ex-SIL as much as I could - polite but distant.

DN visited me in London where I live also (all expenses paid by me) number of times where I always ensured she got to see the city including landmarks and expensive trips like London Eye, Shard etc. She came to visit for 3 weeks when I was on mat leave as an opportunity to explore London and practice her English which I duly did despite having baby in tow. I actually liked spending time and bonding.

Once a year, I come to stay with DM for a couple of weeks in the summer as she’s getting on and I want me and DD to have time with her. DN will typically stay with us when I’m here.

Here is the nub. She’s 16 now and in the last few years there had been more issues around her behaviour but I laid it at the door of being a teenager but I’m struggling this time and I’m wondering if I’m being unreasonable/over sensitive here so would really appreciate your views especially as I never parented a teen.

The issues that cropped up during this most recent stay were as follows (and some are continuation of previous years):

Being disrespectful to my DM while staying with us. Talking back, refusing to help with chores, making snide comments about how DMs house is messy (it isn’t) - i’d mediate these but this would always marr my holidays due to tensions. I realise I’m sounding selfish here but that’s my only time with my mum. Yesterday we were looking at pictures together and she saw a pic of my mum (her grandmothd) from last year and said: “wow, wasn’t grandma slim back then” -&; shirking which I found weirdly crass and insensible. My mum is nearly 70 and size 10! Her own mother is very overweight but I'd never make such comment.

A situation from last year where she seemed moody and upset. When asked started crying and said her mother was unemployed for a while and they were struggling to the point where there was no money for electric and TV was cut off. I understood there was some debt also. She has younger half sister and as a child of a single parent family I sympathised immediately . I gave her several hundred pounds to help her and her mother. A month later I was FaceTiming with her and she told me she had a new iPhone 8 Plus that her mother got her - it would have been a significant amount to pay and then an expensive contract. I remember being too shocked to say anything there and then. This year she was being dismissive and making fun of DMs phone (DM's got a Samsung) and suddenly boasted how much her iPhone plus was last year. This was the year I gave her all that money because apparently their situation was so dire.

When I ask what she’d like she incredibly started asking for expensive stuff like trainers £100+ which I’d duly get her

A lot of the planning of the trips or her visits would be falling to me or my DM down to me googling modes of transport from abroad to get her down to my mum for my visit

This time around ex-SIL said she’d bring her in the morning. I call at around 11, they haven’t left but there was no courtesy call to let us know and we were told there was no ETA. They arrived at 5 pm

In my mother tongue you have a formal way of addressing older family members - Aunty/Uncle. I suddenly realised that she stopped calling me Aunty and just addresses me by my name. I addressed that but I got some sort of moody response that she doesn’t like it. The age difference is significant at 25 years so we are not peers.

She got my mum to book a nail salon appt with my mum’s beautician for this visit and told me that “Grandma offered to pay”. My mum did no such thing and she ended up giving her money as it was then apparently agreed but my mum just forgot (?!)

I brought her a rather cool, age appropriate jewellery as a gift and also gave her £100 but all I got was a brief thank you and a nod and she returned to her phone

One day I asked her to look after DD for an hour while I go to an appointment and she threw a strop

I was taken aback for combination of all those things started eroding my affinity with her and I found myself exhausted during my stay this time especially as my own DD was a bit unwell.

Final point: DN failed to get into the secondary she wanted. Her mother picked her up and they went back home but and all of yesterday I was involved writing references in English and my mother tongue, checking the appeal documents and translating them into English (she applied for an international school). My DD herself was poorly but I parked her in front of Peppa Pig and spent time editing and creating documents. DN was stressed and was snapping at me on the phone and demanding everything there and then. Her mother came on the phone once to tell me to check my spelling in my mother tongue as I got something wrong in one of the letters. They had electronic copies so could have made the changes themselves given I've not lived in this country for half of my life.

AIBU to think I am being taken for granted here and it’s time to start drawing boundaries? I feel weirdly responsible as I’ve created this relationship and she seems to be let down by adults around her but I struggled to be as assertive as would typically be with others. I can see her potential, enjoy spending time with her one on one but I also see this selfish, entitled side and with recent developments I’m starting to feel that perhaps I’ve been too lenient? Or am I’m being harsh on a conflicted teen and my concerns are petty? Spoke to dear old friend who knows DN and ex-SIL and me from many years back and she feels I'm being a bit of a soft fool and that they are being mercenary.

As a start DN was supposed to be returning to my mum's house today but I told her DD was unwell so didn't want extra people in the house (it's a small flat) which is partly true. She seemed fine with it. How do I tackle this going forward?

thank you for reading my stream of consciousness.

Ps. Apologies for all the typos and long-winded sentences Trying to get all of it down on my phone.

I think you need to pull her up
On her behaviour every single time.
You need to be consistent about it.
Also stop trying to buy her affection.
And tell her you need to spend time with your DM so you will tell her when it’s appropriate for her to come.
Once the cash cow stops so will either the visits or the attitude.
Unfortunately you aren’t her parent and aren’t part of her daily life and it appears she is a product of her upbringing. That’s not up to you to change or manage. You can only control or manage your own reactions and/or dealings with her.

@7yo7yo

Thank you so much for the to the point and insightful comment. It's helpful.

Your line about buying her affection really stuck out. I can see how it looks from the outside that I'm doing just that. However, I think it's the fact that she reminds me of me at that age. We were utterly skint and on a breadline we were when DM left my abusive DF so I think I'm projecting here trying to make up for that time where I had nothing as a teen. So it's about me really needing to look at my motivations too.

DM was happy when I told DN not to return today for the rest of my stay as we are having nice time with each other and DD. It felt great although I felt guilty too.

And I understand everything you say but they are evidently not on the breadline if, after moaning they couldn’t pay the electric bill her mother bought her an up to date phone.
I think she’s playing you op and your trying to make up for her useless dad.

DN has obviously got her attitude and manipulative streak from her mother - learnt behaviour.
None of you have ever pulled up SIL on her shit and nobody's pulling up DN on hers.
Your mum should have done it if this how she gets treated.

Stop giving/lending money.
They KNOW how to manipulate you because SIL obviously knows about your childhood.
Stop doing them favours if they don't have the manners to show gratitude.

Thank you @SavingSpaces2019

There was some pulling up in the past but nowhere near as strong as it should be given ex-SIL has the skin of a rhino.

Basically I felt very sorry that my DN had such a disrupted childhood and excused a lot of her behaviour so you're right that the family dynamic is being exploited by ex-SIL and now DN.

It's weird though that I developed such a sense of responsibility for the situation that it made me vulnerable.

I'm a sensible woman in other areas of my life and I'm known for being caring but assertive but seemed to have been blindsided on this. Even the fact I questioned myself so much about this is a flag for me. Reading my post it's all there yet I was sitting there thinking if I was being harsh.

There is something about this dynamic that I need to learn from.

Would you address this directly in one go (including historical stuff) or would you keep the relationship but scale back and start confronting as and when things happen?

I think I’d scale things back massively.
It’s not as if you will get your money back.
Going forwards she wouldn’t be allowed to call me by my name, she wouldn’t get any more expensive items out of me, I wouldn’t pay money if she’s sobbing over the bills and I wouldn’t include her on everything you do with your DM and DD.
I would also pull her up on her bad behaviour every single time. Especially towards my mum.

She's mimicking the behaviours she's learned from her parents, I'm afraid.

The only way to deal with this is to set boundaries, and apply them in the moment. So there's no point dragging up what's happened in the past, as that will cause resentment. You have to pull her up whenever she transgresses. No need to be snappy or angry or confrontational (in fact, that will not help): just say something like, please don't be so rude, or if possible, be very direct, and say, Do not be rude about my mother like that again. And then if you get eye-rolling or a dismissive attitude, tell her that as she can't mind her manners it's time she went home, or went to her room (if she's staying with you, for example), and that you can all try again later. And no matter what happens, stick to your guns.

She won't like it. Expect her to push back. And recognise that you won't be able to overcome her home conditions with any degree of success. There will be explosions and fighting from her, but don't join in. Firm, fair, clear. That's all you can be. Don't get drawn into discussions about what happened, or why you won't put up with it: just set your line, and stick to it.

Sage advice there. Thank you all.

I was thinking of having it out but then it would land in one go and I do not want estrangement, just a reboot.

The fact that it may well end up in reduced contact is probably for the best.

She's a smart girl and I hope she'll work it out herself at some point anyway that this way of operating won't work long term.

Thanks again

@7yo7yo
Good advice.

No need for a row. Just a massive step back from all you do for and give her.

Have time with your DM going forward on your own, and don't apologise for it.

She'll get the message and if she chooses not to.....not your problem.

I have several teens. This is not teenage behaviour. It's bratty behaviour.

Stop putting up with it.

Good advice on here. Definitely don't do the "talk it all out at once" method. That simply won't work and you'll have such different views about what happened, it will get messy, explosive and derailed.

I'd be inclined to go more with the-
Pull her (& ex SIL) up on bad behaviour as it occurs approach.

E.g Set boundaries on visits, send her home if she's repeatedly rude. Ask her to put her phone down if you are talking to her, it's family time/ she is getting a present.

Don't buy extravagant gifts she never seems bothered (grateful) if you can barely get out a thankyou, which means they aren't appreciated. It's lovely to be supportive but you are feeding bad behaviour at the moment if you tolerate it. My 16 can be a bit ungrateful and rude at times (& other times lovely and kind), but he is told clearly what is unacceptable behaviour and what expectations are of him.

The DN should be polite respectful on visits and help out. Or she can go home early. She will l learn very quickly that to have your company, family support, to stay at Nan's and go out on treats, she needs to be kind and respectful. That's a lesson which will improve her life all-round.

Also I think it's important to neutrally comment when she's overstepping , which you can do by saying what's on your mind. E.g. "I haven't lived in X country for 20+ years, so you are far better position to correct my grammar on suggested letters and you have the electronic copies.. I'm not your personal assistant"

And you can turn back any CF behaviour on them
"ExSIL you need to arrange that... These are suitable dates"
" I have given you as much help as I can. Since you feel you can do better on these letters/(whatever else), go ahead.." ..." You have far more time than me. It's also your DDs future"

Your dn is behaving like many teens especially those who haven't got good role models. You can help by being a positive role model and calmly explaining why a behaviour or something she said is inappropriate. Her mother and father have not given her a good upbringing so she really isn't to blame, she is parroting what she hears. As to what she calls you, 25 years ago I would have said auntie and uncle but today my kids don't use such prefixes, times have moved on i expect.

Completely agree with @stucknoue and think people are being really harsh on a 16 year from a very difficult upbringing.
If you as an aunt are NC with your brother, imagine how traumatic and emotional and a headf*ck it must be as his daughter. And it's not like the mum stepped up and took the role well either. No wonder the child behaves in a way that at most is a touch rude, at best standard for a teen. There are many in her circumstances that would have made horrendous life choices and really gone off the rails, so I would look to become a role model for her and show her what life could be.
Praise positive behaviour, show how you feel she should treat people. Perhaps spend time with her volunteering with people that have greater challenges than her, show her people do have it worse. Dont spoil the relationship you have with overwhelming rules and tellings off over what could be considered pretty mild issues. Just please dont give up on her

Thank you all for further sensible input

I am not going to go in all guns blazing at all. Just scale back and start challenging certain behaviours in a compassionate and adult way. I've allowed this to continue partly because I made allowances for age and difficulty of her home situation.

DB, her father, is a piece of work and was nasty to her too. He's a massive misogynist which is why I feel that fundamentally I cannot entertain any of it. As she entered womanhood I think she clocked that too hence she doesn't want to have contact with him. I know it's heartbreaking and although she hides it I know it's very hard as her half sister has good relationship with her father (who is also a non-resident parent).

I did consider having her over for a part of her gap year in couple of years and I may use this as a positive reinforcement of behaviour rules when she spends time with me or DM so that the right foundations are set and she has the right boundaries set in our relationship.

@stucknoue - I agree that in English it is more palatable as the language in its nature is less formal. In my language/culture it is not acceptable not to use the proper form. Aunty is the term and I've heard her use it to and about other people. It seems that she had mistaken the intimacy we have for friend-like relationship and it is definitely not that. But I definitely can see that as I haven't always asserted authority in moments when she was pushing boundaries, she simply assumed it was okay to do. Which it isn't.

@mrsboothroydsholidaydancer
Good luck, you come across as a lovely caring godmother/auntie and I'm sure you will pitch boundaries at the right level with kindness and good role modelling.💐💐