Very unhappy and marriage on the rocks - thoughts please

[highsandlows2019]

I really do know what I need to do but the doubts keep coming at me.

Been with DH 10 years and we have one child together. Red flags that emerged over the years were his drinking, anger and seeming inability to establish boundaries with others - friends, family - such that they have come to affect our relationship.

Left him a few years in, he quit drinking and it was pivotal in us reestablishing our relationship. However, as the years have gone on his Jekyll and Hyde behaviour is more and more skewed towards the Hyde despite not drinking. 99% of people only see Jekyll and he presents himself as very relaxed, laid back and devoted husband so think we have a great relationship and would probably think he's fettered to a joyless shrew.

Examples,

1. I was sexually assaulted by a friend about a year into my relationship with my husband before we were married. I told him what had happened later that day and he took off to get drunk because it was "hard on him" and "didn't know what else to do". He never seemed remorseful about leaving me alone to deal with that and even went on to say it was my fault it happened in the first place one night when he was drunk. Have brought this up recently and he claims (yelling) that he apologised for leaving me when I told him, but again that he was young (late 20s) and our relationship was in its infancy so it wasn't his fault, and that he doesn't remember telling me it was my fault.

1. My child was rushed to emergency with a serious condition when he was a baby. I stayed with him in hospital for three days and was very stressed and unable to sleep. My husband glowered at me when I cried in front of the nurses and received baby CPR lessons. When we were discharged and had got home when he told me I was hopeless and my hysteria was embarrassing. I was exhausted.

1. Hit a severe low in the first year of my child's life from lack of sleep combined with no real help or support. Asked my husband for a hug a few times and was rejected "So I should just quit my job so we can sit around hugging and crying all day, should I?!"

1. I hugged a male friend at a party and he threw a huge tantrum. Almost convinced me I had done something wrong it was so huge. Got his brother on board (who was also at the party) to back him. It's not the first time he has accused me of being inappropriate/cheating and tried to catch me out etc.

1. Sends money to his family despite our difficult financial position then yells at me if I question it, irrespective of how calm I am. In fact I can barely get any words out before he goes on the defensive.

1. He talks to his family multiple times a day, every single day. More than he talks to me or our child. They call all times of the day or night. When I was pregnant and exhausted I would be woken by their calls throughout the night. Putting his phone on silent wasn't an option "in case of emergency" (they live abroad) and he claimed they didn't understand the time difference, which is why they called at 1am/2am/3am/4am... It took months of fights for him to finally start putting his phone on silent. Couple of years down the track I still have to remind him every night.

1. Has never stood up for me when his family or friends have been disrespectful towards me. Eg. His mother refused to give my baby back to me when baby was clearly distressed. Tried to be nice about it but she held on and wouldn't let go so I wrenched baby out of her arms and he gave me a huge dressing down in public.

1. Makes poor business and other decisions that could create big problems for our family. Eg, set up his own business but chose a business structure that meant if something goes wrong we could lose everything - house, assets etc. Clearly this is worst case scenario but it could definitely happen. He was advised to choose a safer business structure but ignored it. When I found this out and (calmly) asked him he threw a tantrum until I shut up.

I realise the above examples sound bad, and there are many, many more from over the years some worse still. I come from a position of very low self-esteem it seems.

He showed me he could make big changes for the sake of our relationship when quit drinking which is a big positive. He has many other positives too. But I don't know if he can change his attitude in general.

I had been trying to get us into couples counselling for years, trying to talk with him about our problems for years, but he has always just shut me off. Claiming the problems were in my head and I just had to "learn how to be happy".

He knows now that I've reached the end and I'm serious about separation, so only now has finally agreed to counselling. But I don't know whether there's any point. He swings between begging me to try again and telling me how much he loves me, to playing the victim and saying I don't want him, I never wanted him, never loved him, I don't even want to try, just like his father didn't want him (they're estranged), I hate his family, I don't understand him, he's done everything for me etc etc.

Feel sick about everything. I remember the good times in our relationship and want to keep our family together, but examples like the above... When I read them now I can't believe I just let them all happen.

We had one counselling session some weeks back during which the psychologist seemed to clock the issues very quickly. He showed a bit of his Hyde and she shut it down. He had a miraculous turn around not long before the end of the session where he "finally saw" what was going on. But it didn't last long.

Sorry, this is a long post. Just like to know some people's thoughts bearing in mind these are just a few examples and while he would either deny they ever happened, or claim I'm overreacting, I am certain they happened as written above.

I usually think that people on MN are way too quick to say "leave the bastard" and generally if there are children involved then it's best to make it work if you possibly can.

HOWEVER, if these instances are true (which I guess they are) then he genuinely sounds like a dreadful husband and you can and should be treated much better than this. I'm pregnant now and the idea of being treated like he treated you is just inconceivable.

Maybe you should think about continuing counselling to know that you have it your best shot?

The only other thing I'd add is that you do seem to have built up a lot of resentment over the years and, understandably, aren't letting go of past wrongs. This won't be helping your relationship even if it is completely human and understandable.

Good luck. I really, really feel for you xx

PS that stuff about is family ringing through the night is completely mental

I'm just going to ask: is he white British?

Anyway, I agree with poster above. He is one of the worst that's been shared. LTB immediately. Actually, get a solicitor first and get all your stuff sorted RE money and banking. Then LTB.

Couples counselling wouldn't necessarily help (or 'save') your relationship. Both sides have to be ready for change - and it doesn't sound like your husband is.

Your post is extensive and goes back a long time, have any of these instances been discussed or acknowledged by your partner?

I'm sorry, I have no advice. Reflect on whether your husband wants to improve the marriage (or is open to) to change. If that answer is no - think about your and yours child's future.

This behaviour must be affecting them and it will shape the adult they will become - even by unconsciously learning your partners behaviours (and your) behaviour towards each other.

Good luck op

I don't think this is retrievable tbh op.
He sounds very manipulative and unpleasant.
You deserve far more than the way you have been treated.

Be very careful though in how you split up. The kind Of man you have described will take it as a huge blow to his ego and will make it as hard as possible and with respect, your confidence doesn't appear to be that high (understandably-he seems to have been gaslighting you for years from what you've said).
I would go and see a solicitor and get an idea of your options before you even mention it to your husband. They may well say you have to go to some sort of counselling anyway-to discuss how to split up-that seems to be a requirement now.

I'm sorry op. I rarely say LTB but I worry for your sanity and that if your kids if you stay with this man.

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

@BaweB Unless he's right and I have mental problems, then yes. Those examples are real. I have thought about continuing counselling, but to what end. How many sessions do you continue with until you have to call it a day. I don't think he will give up wanting to stay together. But I don't see him having a radical perspective change either. I thought given I gave him the ultimatum about counselling I probably need to go through with it, but I also feel like it's maintaining limbo. Perhaps suggest we try four more sessions and then look at whether we've really made any progress and then decide? Don't know.

You're right about the resentment, because there's no closure on any of the things he's done. No remorse. And because there's no resolution the behaviour continues so I just have to accept it? As he says, the past is in the past. But the past is the past, even if it has only just happened. I would be willing to try to leave the past in the past once it's actually been dealt with, we both know why it happened, and feel sure it won't happen again.

@jameswong Not white British! Why do you ask? I have actually seen a solicitor so I have had advice. Not sure what to do about money and banking so I have to look into that.

@CurlyTwirlyTwos There are countless examples I could give you but these few stand out. I have addressed all of them with him, or tried to, many times. I get shut down every time. Either they never happened and are all in my head, or I'm being overly sensitive, or he was just reacting as best he could given the circumstances, or I don't trust him, hate his family, don't love him, think he's stupid etc etc. There's never any ownership, remorse or clarity.

@historysock Yes, I believe he has been gaslighting me for years. And I am very worn down. I was a very different person when I first met him, though he's not the first who has treated me badly. My belief is my own upbringing may be the root of why I've let this happen to me. And his upbringing is why he's behaving like this and thinks it's fine. Difference is, I'm willing to work on myself to become a better and stronger person yet he seems to think that despite all the evidence he is turning into his father (abusive alcoholic) that there's either nothing wrong with him or that I have made him an angry person. If I had the power to make anyone into a different person I would most definitely be using my powers for good and not evil. What a gift that would be.

My exh would always say to me ' why can't you leave things in the past' or just pointblank deny things had happened in the way they had.

Like you I couldn't leave things in the past as they hadn't been resolved and eventually I got sick of thing myself in knots over it all.

If he'd just admitted what had happened and acknowledged the effect we could have probably saved the marriage. It was the constant denial and blame shifting that began to do for us in the end.

A time limit on the counselling is a good idea I think. Otherwise you are going round in circles and chucking good money after bad.

I think the only option is to end marriage; counselling hasnt really worked. You sound so utterly worn down that i think you’ll be happier without him. But please get all the legal advice and support that you can as he’ll play hard ball in a divorce. Good luck

Counselling is not appropriate where there is abuse and he has shown emotionally and verbally abusive behaviour.

You also say that he thinks he is fine and doesn't want to change - so what good would continuing the counselling do? It's not going to make him see that he has been unfair (to put it mildly) towards you. He believes that everything he has done has been justified and that can't be solved by some talking.

No, I think it is a lame buzzword he is now promising as some kind of attempt to placate you/make you stop with what he probably assumes is "nonsense".

His idea of the perfect marriage is always going to be extremely different from any marriage you would be happy in. It is not unfair to say you are done, you don't have to keep putting energy into this. The counselling clearly isn't ever going to make a dent so I would not waste your time or money. If anything, continue it individually. You will not get closure, he won't feel remorse - why would he feel remorse for something he genuinely doesn't believe is wrong? You're not going to get to a point if understanding what happened and deciding that it won't happen again. He likely holds some deeply entrenched beliefs about men, women and extended family and their roles in marriage, which he has never explicitly verbalised because it is as obvious to him as the notion that you should be equal and that the marriage should be higher priority than extended family is obvious to you. So over the years you have clashed when you have come across a situation where each of you has had wildly different expectations, causing surprise and even anger as you both had an idea of how the other (should) react and he/you did not. For him to apologise to you and admit he was wrong would be as alien as a parent apologising to their adult child for ever disciplining them (assuming normal, healthy discipline methods rather than abuse) - he would probably say that you were the one in the wrong, and believe it.

I don't think you could ever be happy together, it's sad, but that's what it is.

@historysock Your ex sounds exactly like mine. The denial, blame shifting, playing the victim... the lengths he goes to to avoid taking responsibility are absolutely exhausting for me. He even managed to claim that leaving me in my first example above was just the same as me leaving him when I had had enough of this drunken abuse! When I left the situation was so bad he came home and smashed on the door until I let him in, yelling and screaming into the night at me before passing out on the couch while I lay in the bedroom with a knife under my pillow. Apparently him waking up the next morning to find me gone was me abandoning him. The victim.

I have no idea how he manages to continue on with so much energy because it must be more exhausting for him constantly trying to clutch at straws. Even now he's saying everything is up to me. It's all in my hands. I have all the power. He makes it sound like he's the poor helpless victim and I'm a ballbreaker, but in fact it's him saying he's done nothing wrong and doesn't need to do the work.

I think a few sessions and a review is a good plan. Review with the counsellor, not just the two of you.

Regardless of why he is like this, it isnt compulsory to spend your only life attempting to fix damaged men. You actually might both be happier apart.

He stopped drinking for himself, not for you - if he couldn't stop, that wouldn't have been your responsibility. You don't have to stay just because of that.

Someone who has a personality disorder will not do well with couples counselling. He needs YEARS of intense thearpy to deal with his engraved issues and that is if he even owns up to his own misgivings.

You had warning signs of his behaviour before you married, his reaction to your rape should have been a deal breaker. Next time you get in an relationship, listen to the signs and do not ignore them.

I'm sorry but the first incident was him showing his true colours to you.

You know what the answer is.

Well in that case OP use that narrative. If you have 'all the power' then Use it and get away.

No amount of you trying to be amicable and find a way through it will change his internal (and probably external to everyone else I'm afraid to say) monologue.
Trick is (and it's far from easy) to shut your ears to it. He will try to make you feel guilty-you don't need to let him. He will paint himself as the victim and make you look bad to everyone else. Tell a few people you trust, in advance, what has happened. Further than that you have to learn to not care what people think. It's bloody hard.
But other than doing that you are living a half life motivated by a sense of guilt and misplaced 'duty' to other people, and that way madness and unhappiness lies...

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is NONE.

Who was the first person who treated you badly and what was your own upbringing like?.

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?. What sort of an example were you shown by parents?.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?
This is all on your H and like all abusers refuses to take any responsibility for his own actions. Such men hate women as well, all of them. All your words here are those of an abused woman in an abusive marriage. It is no point whatsoever in continuing with joint counselling and this is never recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship.

What do you want to teach your child about relationships and what is this person learning here from the two of you?. A shedload of damaging lessons currently.

You need to divorce this man before he really does destroy you and your child from the inside out. Womens Aid are also worth contacting here and you could look at and enrol on their Freedom Programme.

@ukgift2016 Sorry, just to be clear I wasn't raped. I was groped. My "friend" put his hands under my clothes. I don't want to go into details but he was in a huge position of power at the time given the circumstances and knew I couldn't' do anything about it. Sorry if I have given the wrong impression or used the wrong language.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thanks. It's very hard to see myself as an abused woman in an abusive marriage. But if people believe I am given just the few examples I've given then I guess I have to accept that. I don't know how I got here. I used to see women in my situation and it seemed so abstract. I wondered how they got there and why they stayed. Now I know.

In answer to your questions, the previous relationship was similar though there were other factors involved that made it complex. No alcoholism though. But again I was never good enough. Put down, belittled, not a priority. His family had free reign to do what they liked and me being the "wrong" religion meant I was an easy target given the circumstances. He was very sick so everyone was under a lot of stress and I copped the brunt of it being the outsider. Again I ran around like a mad thing trying to help him and them but it was never good enough.

My parents never got on. It was stony silence between them and you could cut the contempt in the air with a knife. We never saw them fight, or even talk. Everything was repressed. They split when I was about 12. My mother is emotionally unavailable, so I have never had support through anything difficult in my life. She disappears whenever anything happens to me, always has. When I have tried to talk to her about my marriage issues she shuts me down much like my husband does and says "No, no. I've already had to deal with this with your father. I'm not dealing with your issues. Your problem, not mine" and leaves. This may explain why I ignored the red flags early on.

Your own upbringing at the hands of abusive parents themselves has played a huge part in you being with your current husband now (a man who is also abusive). Abuse and being otherwise mistreated is all you have really known. You still feel not good enough now don't you?.

Where in the world are you; are you in the UK or overseas?. Regardless of where you live there is likely to be a domestic violence support organisation that you can (and should) contact here. They can and will help. I would also get his abuses of you properly documented, have a papertrail.

I asked you what you get out of this relationship now; the fact that you cannot answer that question speaks volumes. Fear of him amongst many other reasons (financial pressures and children to name but two) keeps women within such relationships but staying with him will not do your child or you any favours in the long run. it would not be for the child's sake, it could be argued that it would be for your sake instead. He's not bothered about his child now and I doubt he would be at all bothered with this person on you separating from him. Is this really what you want to teach your child about relationships, this abusive model of a relationship for this person to potentially emulate as well?. Look at what you learnt.

Should he have any access to your child at all post separation?. He is showing no real interest in his child as it is because he is treating you as this child's mother so very badly and likely neglects his child in other ways too. He is not interested and basically uses this person as a stick to further beat and otherwise punish you with.

How can you be helped into leaving your abuser?.