Counselling with Toxic Parents / In Laws

[WishingILivedOnAnIsland]

I've written on here before about my PIL who I believe are emotionally abusive towards myself and DH.

I want for myself and our DC to be NC with them. My DH isn't ready to give up on them.

DH has been asking MIL and FIL for eight months to attend family counselling with he and I. They have done everything from outright refused, to saying 'you don't want to know what we would say in counselling' to agreeing to go then pretending they didn't, to accusing DH of refusing to go to counselling .

DH is now finally saying it is counselling or NC with our DC, which is the only thing they care about. They will finally have to attend counselling or exit our lives.

Has anyone been to counselling with toxic parents? How did it go? Any advice?

If it's relevant, I'm pretty sure that FIL has a lot of narcissistic traits, and he explodes or breaks down sobbing before anyone can finish saying anything resembling criticism of himself. I'm not sure how he would conduct himself before the counsellor or how they would go keeping the conversation on track.

Any tips for making sure counselling isn't just another forum for them to manipulate and attack us?

Joint counselling with an abuser is not recommended, they will play the counsellor against you too.
Narcissists don't respond to boundaries.
You can't control or change a narcissist.
The only effective way to deal with them is to cut them off.

Joint counselling with an abuser is not recommended

Dont do it, OP. They'll use the counselling to manipulate the counsellor, your DP or both against you. This is highly unlikely to even end up with the status quo.

Repeat: they will masterfully use counselling to do further damage.

I would try counselling for you two first to establish what your boundaries are in relationships. Don’t go to family counselling with a narcissist, it’s like all their dreams come true. Look after yourselves.

Bad bad idea.

If your dh insists, then you need to ensure you choose one that is experienced with narcissism and is NOT an advocate for families to stay together no matter what.

Make sure you see them first, before all together and be very clear that you suspect narc, give them an idea of how you think they will behave, your boundaries and the bare minimum they will have to do before you are willing for low contact.

But again. Bad idea

It's DH wanting to do it and I don't think it's my place to stand in the way.

He keeps wanting them to understand that their behaviour is hurtful and 'fix' the relationship. I think it is hopeless, and I also don't think there is anything PIL could say or do that would make me trust them at this point.

I don't know if FIL is a particularly savvy narcissist. He says some bizarre things that show he is at the centre of the universe in his mind. I think there is a chance that having an independent party in the room might make him more accountable for the things he says and expose him.

The problem is you’re all coming at it from different angles. Your DH doesn’t think his DF is a narcissist but you do, he thinks the relationship is repairable but you don’t. Be careful you don’t end up being labelled as the roadblock.
Have you found someone who’ll see you all as a group?

That why I'm trying to be supportive of the attempt at counselling, I don't want to be labeled as the roadblock to reconciliation.

I haven't told DH I think his Dad is narcissistic. Again, I don't want to be seen to be the one 'causing trouble'. DH grew up with his parents carrying on, falling out with people and throwing tantrums. DH thinks a lot of it is normal although he doesn't behave that way himself.

We don't have anyone to see us yet, I was thinking I'd post anonymously in a local parenting forum and ask for recommendations. I'm not sure how to say what I am looking for though. I want someone who will spot and call out abuse patterns. I want someone who will be suggesting healthy boundaries rather than 'coming together.' I don't want someone who will push reconciliation at any cost, or expect us to compromise any further than we have to accomodate PIL.

PIL have no respect for boundaries and will interpret any further 'compromise' on our part as proof that they are right and they will just keep pushing and pushing.

They might not even agree to attend counselling. The fact they keep avoiding it suggests to me that they are afraid it will expose them.

Counselling won't help. If they are as toxic as you describe, they will use the counselling sessions to abuse you further.

You can't make them understand how badly they're behaving, or how badly their behaviour is hurting you, because they don't care. Their behaviour works for them so they will continue with it.

You can, however, change how you react to them. Set boundaries, and enforce them. It will take time but if you're consistent and firm, they will realise how their behaviours are causing them to lose out, and they might change. They might not, but if you've enforced your boundaries that shouldn't affect you too much.

The best resource I've found for this is the Captain Awkward blog. Spend some time reading through the archives there. It's brilliant.

Maybe go for couple counselling now and you actually tell him that you suspect that’s what he is up against.

If your counsellor is up on toxic parents, they will be able to help him with that understanding.

My friend did that with her dh. The counsellor was able to look at the whole picture and explain to him that his mother’s behaviour was not normal. Really helped them both.

@TougheningUp Thanks lll check that out.

I've suggested DH and I go to counselling alone to talk about enforcing boundaries for his parents. It's something he struggles with because they kick off with dramatics over the smallest things so he tends to let a lot slide in the name of 'picking his battles' rather than stand up to them. It makes sense in the moment but the accumulated result is that they don't learn to respect our decisions or boundaries at all.

If you set boundaries and then enforce them firmly they won't get a chance to kick off, because you won't remain in their presence once they break your boundaries.

Letting things slide is just another way to describe allowing people to abuse you.

Read Captain Awkward. I'm certain you'll find it useful.

@TougheningUp

captainawkward.com/2012/05/14/247-marrying-into-a-family-with-awful-boundary-issues-or-secrets-of-dealing-with-highly-difficult-people/

Oh my gosh this letter about a MIL is so similar to my situation it's bizarre. Thanks for the tip, I've just ordered some books recommended in the answer and the comments.

I can walk away/hang up etc no problem. It's DH who can't (and he often has our DC with him, and they end up exposed to it all). I'm hoping joint counselling with me will help him set and enforce boundaries.

Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting for a minute you are the roadblock, You sound as though you’re being really savvy in thinking all this through.
Look on the BACP website for a therapist, don’t be afraid to ask for help there in finding someone if you don’t know what you’re looking for. Getting an inexperienced person will be no good for you at all. Incidentally, narcissists tend to be very dismissive of therapists.

Counselling with his parents present is a complete non starter here and a disaster waiting to happen. Counselling with abusive people is never recommended in any case and it is not recommended here by me at all. Do not further entertain this idea of counselling with his parents under any circumstances.

Your inlaws need to exit your lives. They have already messed you around enough as a couple and no counselling session with them present will ever go well.

Its not about you supposedly standing in the way either. You cannot apply "normal" rules of familial interactions to people like his parents. In your DHs case his whole family of origin is dysfunctional. He initially needs to be seen by a therapist highly versed in narcissistic family structures because he has been well and truly trained from early childhood to serve his parents at his overall expense. He is very much an adult child of narcissistic parents and the fear, obligation and guilt he has affects him and you people as his family unit markedly.

The only effective way to deal with his parents here is to cut them out of your lives. Narcissists do not respond at all well to boundaries and will ignore and otherwise rail against and any all you care to set them.

A good rule of thumb here is that if they are too toxic/difficult/batshit for you to deal with, its the same deal for your children as well. How your H has been emotionally harmed is very similar to how your own children will be harmed if they remain unfortunate enough to be seeing his parents in any setting. Toxic people like this make for being toxic as grandparents too.

I would have a look at the Out of the Fog website and read "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward as a starting point. Your H could read "Children of the self absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

Ok. There ARE ways to manage unaware narcs but you need to be rock solid and seriously know your onions. I manage mine all the time. It's hilarious.

The level of toxicity on a day to day level are no where near what mine are and mine are bad.

I remember your first post OP. Then I was inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Now, I'm simply not sure.

OP, other than the PIL issue, are you happy? Well?

@75Renarde

I am otherwise happy and well. This is honestly the only problem in our marriage. In all other issues DH and are aligned, compatible, happy and supportive of each other. Every single time he's ever let me or the DC down- it was in an attempt to please PIL and avoid a sulk or tantrum.

DH is a engaged responsive loving partner and father. He is driven and strong in all other situations. It's just PIL who he cannot deal with, who turn him into a spineless puddle and he just goes along to keep them calm. I see now his role in the abuse dynamic- he has learnt over the years to go into appeasement mode to avoid his fathers bullying.

The last thread I posted was really eye opening for me. I had been attributing all the problems to PIL- it was uncomfortable to be forced to think about DH's role and how badly he was letting me and DC down.

I went back to see the counsellor I saw for PNA to talk it through. And then I spoke to DH. I told him I believe his parents are abusive and that he has allowed them to bully me in the name of 'keeping the peace'. I told him this has strained our marriage and I don't feel like I can rely on him. That I don't know where his head is, and that he is disrespecting me and weakening our marriage and our family unit every time he allows his parents to criticise/glare/carry on at me. I told him that being around this abuse is like living near a train line- he's been around it so long doesn't hear it anymore!!! He thinks it's normal, and that's really fucked up. I told him I will not have my children grow up conditioned to accept this behaviour. I will not have them allow a partner, or a boss, or another kid at school to treat them as they have seen their grandfather treat me.

I told him I will not be having any further contact with PIL and I am happy to write them a letter explaining why. I told him that I will no longer allow my children to see them either. I told him that PIL will not be meeting my new baby when it is born. I'm done.

I told him our marriage has taken a beating and we need to go to counselling. He agreed.

DH took a couple of weeks to process it all. He then asked if he could bring DC for a visit because PIL were hassling him about the lack of contact. I said no. I meant what I said. No more contact with the children.

DH then wrote to PIL and told them that the offer of counselling was still there, but there will be no more visits with DC for now. He told them that their behaviour was taking his attention away from his priority- his wife and children. He said that there had been no improvement for a year and he has had enough.

It was the first time he really drew a line, basically said 'no more' and showed he was ready to walk away from them.

We've had nothing but abuse and hysterics every time we've ever said no or tried to set a boundary, so we were expecting them to throw a massive tantrum this week. They haven't had a kind word for DH in months and months. However-

They sent a lovely kind response about how worried they were about him. They immediately agreed to go to counselling as though it had never been suggested before. They said they loved him and just wanted to stay in his life.

I think it's more manipulative bullshit personally but DH is going along with it.

So we have to go to counselling.

I am hoping for DH and I to go to counselling together before the family one to work on boundary setting. And then I want to find a family counsellor who is adept at spotting abuse patterns and behaviour, and will call it out. I also need someone who will honestly say when a healthy relationship is not possible, rather than someone who will focus on family reunification as the only goal.

Sorry for the essay!

Any tips on managing a relationship with narcs would be amazing. It seems I am stuck with these people for a while yet.

OP Gonna be frank. I'm at Ninja levels of awareness concerning narc behaviour. It's NOT to be recommended. They're cunts frankly. Some are more effective than others, some more stupid. Some are fucking deadly.

My advice, YOU go completely NC with these bunch of manipulative arsewipes. Let DH go to counselling. (I'm getting more and more frustrated on your behalf at his behaviour).

Why do you have to go?
Of all of them you sound like the only one who doesn’t need it.
I’m from a family of narcs with a narc mil too ( lucky me) and the only way to survive is totally grey rock the bunch of them

To add, sadly most counsellors are the proverbial chocolate poker. It will be a wasted time, money and effort.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.

@75Renarde I appreciate you being blunt, it's helpful.

DH's preference is for him to go to counselling alone with them, and for me to sit it out 'until his relationship with them is repaired.' And then they'll work on their relationship with me apparently.

I'm afraid of DH going alone as PIL rewrite history to suit themselves and a lot of the time DH will go along with it if I'm not there to call it out. PIL will try to manipulate DH into thinking he just needs to be a better son and then there would be no problem.

DH is desperate not to lose his parents and will accept crumbs from them and then go along telling himself all is well... and then it leaves me being the 'problem' because everyone else just wants to be a happy family.

If I went to counselling it would only be to keep everyone accountable, stop PIL from controlling the conversation and make sure DH doesn't agree to anything I am not comfortable with.

Also the inevitable conflict will be about the DC. If DH goes to counselling and falls back into his old pattern with PIL, then he will next be wanting to facilitate a relationship between DC and PIL, which I will not want, regardless of how well PIL manage to manipulate DH or a counsellor.

Hey OP. That was blunt. Apologies, in a funny mood.

Whilst it is possible to manipulate a narc, I have done it, they are very VERY good at sensing it. Moreover, you risk igniting their fury. Now, that might juuuusssttt open your DHs eyes but what happens if someone gets injured?

Wishing

Re your comment:-
"I told him I will not be having any further contact with PIL and I am happy to write them a letter explaining why. I told him that I will no longer allow my children to see them either. I told him that PIL will not be meeting my new baby when it is born. I'm done.

I told him our marriage has taken a beating and we need to go to counselling. He agreed".

You've declared a boundary here; stick to this. Your DH certainly needs therapy and from a therapist who is highly skilled in the ways of narcissistic family structures. Your H has been trained really from early childhood to appease and serve his abusive parents at his expense and now yours as his own family unit. This is partly why he has and continues to show inertia re them now. He really feels torn between you and they.

Their lovely and kind response is really anything but; such people will try everything to draw what they see as their wayward errant son (and blame you for that happening to him) back into their dysfunctional world. They only want him in their lives because he is their scapegoat for all their inherent ills; they need their whipping boy and he has been trained into serving them.

Re your comment:-
"I am hoping for DH and I to go to counselling together before the family one to work on boundary setting. And then I want to find a family counsellor who is adept at spotting abuse patterns and behaviour, and will call it out. I also need someone who will honestly say when a healthy relationship is not possible, rather than someone who will focus on family reunification as the only goal".

You have already made a boundary here re his parents and this is one you need to stick to like glue now.

You DO NOT have to go to family counselling and I reiterate such a move with them is and will be a disaster from the start. I would also suggest you post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these Relationships pages as their counsel could help you as well.

This is a good website:-
www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html#npd

Do not write them a letter stating that you wish to go NC: this will be a red rag to a bull and you will cop their narcissistic rages again. Do not forget either that a response is what such people want too. Just withdraw quietly and make yourself and your children totally unavailable to them.

Do read this:-

outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/no-contact

There is NO managing a relationship with narcissists because it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with such people. NC is the way to go here; this will be the only way you will have a modicum of peace apart from the times they or other family members try and hoover you (do read about narcissists and hoovering behaviours). They really do treat other people like dirt.

No decent counsellor would ever want to see these people in a room together with you people because of the abuses they have and continue to mete out towards their now adult son and you. Your DH remains profoundly affected by his parents abuse towards him and he will in all likelihood need years of therapy to start unpicking the damage they have done to him. He has never accepted nor wants to accept there is no relationship really between he and his parents, he still lives in hopes of a relationship and still very much wants their approval (approval they will never give them).