Being less argumentative/ combative?

[Tmyb]

Trying to work through some issues with my P currently. I have said that I find some of his behaviours difficult; for his part he also has issues with some of mine, he says I am argumentative, that I contradict him a lot or correct him when I don't need to (ie if he says something is half an hour away I will say 45 mins if it is 45 mins away) and he says that when we have a 'discussion' I hector and browbeat him and use long words and workers until he is confused and snaps and shouts.

I work in a field where I am often in dispute, it's a core part of my role. I am very good at marshalling facts and presenting my case. I generally win work based disputes. Possibly I am guilty of doing this outside of work- I'm not trying to make him feel small or stupid, I'm just defending myself verbally.

If he has a point, how can I stop doing this and assert my POV without offending him but also without turning into a total doormat?

One thing might be about picking battles - does he really need to be 'corrected', for example? (It drives me mad that DH and FIL are always trying to be 'right' about things with each other, even when there is no need to even bother about it)

I think there's also a lot to be said for 'accepting feelings' - it's a thing talked about a lot in the book 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' and it applies to adults as well. Do you need to argue with him about something or can you accept his feelings (ie don't try to tell him his feelings are wrong, don't proffer solutions, etc) lower the pressure and then maybe a solution will emerge in a normal conversation about it?

I suppose it depends on the context...if we're meant to be somewhere in 45 mins it is important to point out it will take us that long to get there so we need to leave now. Other cases yes I suppose I can leave the comment uncorrected.

In terms of accepting his feelings, the difficulty I have is that he's often complaining about things that he thinks I've said or done which I haven't. Not about his feelings but criticising me (in my view for unjustified reasons). So in that scenario I have to defend myself and tell him he's wrong. I am sure he would prefer me to just accept what he says but that doesn't seem very fair.

I think you need to think about how much of your self-worth is bound up in being perceived to be right, or to having good judgement. Also - how far your professional persona is removed from society’s expectations of what a woman should be like. To take an example, I am a journalist and as a result I have a lot of facts in my head about current events. I tend to know exactly how many percentage points the economy has grown or shrunk by, for example. I have got myself into trouble at dinner parties after wine has been taken when people tell me things which just aren’t factually true. I’ve had to learn to zone out to keep the peace. If your DP expects women not to be argumentative (I mean subconsciously, not suggesting he’s an out-and-our sexist!) does he find your style difficult?

In the 45 minutes conversation how hard would you find it to let his point stand a bit, say “yes, but sometimes I find it’s more like 45, shall we leave at x time?”

I think my upbringing was very much that I should always assert what was right, and if others didn't like that it was their problem...My parents (especially my dad) had very little tolerance for people they thought were less intelligent or who couldn't engage in debate and argument. We would regularly have heated debates at the dinner table. I was encouraged to always win arguments and not to allow myself to be dominated especially by men.

My partner was brought up very differently in a male dominated household where women's roles were more traditional, and that has been true of his past relationships too.

Perhaps we both need to move our positions a little.

Yes - but with the emphasis on both. I’m sending you a DM x

M’y mum does this to my dad all time. I don’t know how he can bear to stay married to her sometimes. My sister and I both have tendencies towards acting like this as it’s what we were brought up seeing day in, day out: we both work hard to temper our need to be clever and right all the time.

I once read that in many interactions you can choose whether to be kind or to be right. My mum would not even see the difference: for her, being right trumps everything. It keeps her ego intact at the expense of everyone else’s, and she can’t even see it. I get tired of talking with her very quickly and tune out. And when I see her doing it to my dad or my DH it helps me to recognise the tendency in myself.

Do you admire your dads way of interacting with people? I really don’t want to be like my mum.

At the same time, I do remind dh that if he’d just wanted a partner who agreed with everything he said / did, then he probably shouldn’t have married me! We have both had to give a bit - him to be less sensitive when I disagree, and me to be genuinely willing to discuss something and negotiate a compromise, rather than just trying to win an argument.

I think for me I see exchanges in different ways. So generally I try to be kind, do things for others, buy thoughtful gifts etc and I dont often initiate disagreements but when they start especially if someone is wrong I don't hold back. And if I do say something and someone contradicts me when I know 100% that I'm right that is like a red rag to a bull.

My partner is v much into compromise but that often feels like giving in rather than an actual compromise. That's probably something I need to unpick.

I think the posters who have mentioned your upbringings are spot on. It’s very hard (for both of you) to move away from the feeling that the way your parents related to each other is the ‘right’ way. I think you would really benefit from couples counselling or a marriage course to talk through the way you communicate and manage conflict.

Maybe what you could try to unpick is why you are reacting so defensively - what is it you are actually trying to defend? Everything I’ve read suggests that - when it’s not something that’s important - it’s your own ego that your are defending.

With my mum, I can see it in her interactions with people. They’ll be telling a story or planning something and she’ll butt in throughout, correcting as she goes «30 minutes?? It’s at least 45 minutes from a to b!» or « it wasn’t Pete that said that! Don’t you remember? Anne was standing next to Pete and it was her that spoke!» it’s so rude and undermining. She never stops to think about whether her input is needed or positive or how it might make the other person feel - it’s more important to her that she is right, always. Same with compromise: she’s already worked out what the right thing to do is, in any situation, and she’s not interested in alternatives. I hate trying to make arrangements with her.

Sorry for the mega post - it touches a nerve because I know I have a tendency to be like this too. Dsis and I talk about it often, including trying not to be so like this. Her DP calls her out very clearly on it. I’m learning to read the signs: basically if I open my mouth and hear my mums voice coming out, I know I’m on the wrong track ;-)

It’s pretty lightweight and very American but I found Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff a really useful read in this respect. I even bought a copy for my mum: her response ? «I don’t know why you bought this for me, did you mean to?»

In short, the question I've learnt to ask when a disagreement starts is: do I want to win this argument and walk away know that I'm right (and that feels good) and they are wrong (and who cares if they feel bad)?

Or do I want to have a positive interaction with this person (that I love and care for) and both of us walk away from it feeling good about ourselves? How can I choose my words to make that happen? It's actually a lot harder that just letting rip... only very clever people can do it ;-)

I have a tendency to do this too. And I really try to rein it in because it's harmful to my relationships and doesn't help in any way (unless it's something that's going to have a negative impact on me or my family.)

What I have tried to do in cases like the 45 mins one, is to rephrase my point as "Wouldn't it be more like 45 mins on a weekend/rush hour/etc? Shall I check Google Maps? I don't want to miss the start of the film!"

It's when I'm tired/grumpy/stressed that I end up biting back and have been known to sit back, fold my arms, and say "Prove it." I'm more likely to do this with an acquaintance who's just come out with something stupid like "Our son can't get a job because Polish people have taken them all." So not someone I give a shit about damaging our relationship.

I'm just defending myself verbally

Your language is extremely interesting.
Why do you need to defend yourself?
When you evaluate your statement above - can you explain why self-defense is part of your interpersonal repertoire when it comes to this relationship?
Can you imagine a relationship where there would be no need to defend yourself?

that often feels like giving in rather than an actual compromise

Another very interesting statement.

Your upbringings sound radically different. I'd summarize my thoughts like this:

One of your key values is verity. You want the truth to be spoken. You demonstrate this by living in the world of facts, and you have a love and zeal for facts. You predicate right and wrong based on facts; those who do not have access to the facts, or misunderstand them, or denigrate their primacy, are not your people.

One of your partner's key values is compromise. He wants people to feel good, respected, safe, etc. Compromise (or perhaps something related - gentleness, collaboration, etc.) is primary to him and he would sacrifice facts on the altar of compromise. Right and wrong is predicated more on whether something works for all involved, rather than if it is "right".

I gently suggest that compromise feels like giving in, because you are being asked to compromise the basic values that underlie your personality.

I even more gently suggest that this relationship is not right for you.

There are 3.5 billion men in this world. Find one whose values align with yours and nothing will feel difficult again.

It is worth remembering that just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean they are opposing you or against you. It also doesn't mean they need or want to be brought round to your POV. Really clever smart confident people don't argue or debate. They listen and they process

My DP and his family are very much like this, including the hostile 'debates' over dinner.

It is exhausting to watch and pride has crushed his parents marriage. I just about manage the behaviour by ignoring my DP when he does it. All of my family and friends roll their eyes at him when he corrects me over something petty. Though, I have accepted it's a part of his personality and I am far from perfect.

If I were you I'd try to let things go and stop being so proud, as it comes across as a constant need to prove yourself and appears as insecurity to others. I hope things get better for you.