Laying out all the bad stuff in the beginning

[Thinkingandthinking]

What is your take on such situation?

You start dating a man, he is good and caring and funny. From the rather beginning (already around month 1 and 2) he starts talking about all the negative stuff regarding himself - how he has been bullied at school, how his parents divorced when he was little and how badly his dad behaved in his opinion doing so; how all of his girlfriends have left him (this came out a bit later); how his mother survived cancer; how he is undervalued at work while he works so hard; how his older siblings are so successful and he is not; how all of his friends have "their own life" and they do not make an effort to meet him; how he due all of this does not trust people very well.

During the following relationship, on the one hand he seems fine and still caring and funny and everything, but on the other hand all these negatives somehow occur in his actions or conversations and sometimes it feels like he is using these negatives as an excuse, but it also feels like his actions actually can be "excused" due to his "poor life" (feeling sorry for him, natural instinct).

So. My question is. What do you think, could this be rather:

a) He will lay out all the bad stuff from the start and see whether the partner can cope with it and still like him, so he knows that he can trust her and share their lives together, to minimize the risk of her dumping him when something negative comes out later about him - so some kind of defense mechanism not to get hurt.

or

b) He will lay out all the bad stuff so she will feel sorry for him and be kind of trapped because how can one leave someone who has had such a difficult life and so hurt inside - so kind of abusive tactic to keep someone in their life.

@Thinkingandthinking, I would be really wary of this man. I had not dissimilar and dated a man for whom everyone was to blame for his problems. His ex-wife abused him, his Dad hadn't been very loving, his work colleagues didn't value his contribution, his previous relationship had turned out to be a vengeful harpy and so on.

None of it was his fault and he saw himself as a victim so that he could suck the life and soul out of me as his emotional support mechanism and to excuse any 'difficult' behaviour he might exhibit, because he'd had such a troubled life. Initially I felt sorry for him and wanted to be supportive but I soon came to realise he was a covert narcissist and was just using me to prop up his low self-esteem.

We all have a past and most of us will have had some issues to deal with, however it is how we perceive ourselves that is important and if you always see yourself as a victim, then you are not taking responsibility and you are justifying future bad behaviour - which also won't be your fault!!!!

Proceed with great caution - IMHO.

You say he's not interested in your problems? He didn't ask questions when you brought up your past? That's surely a big red flag...only interested in himself.

Does he actually play the victim? I'm wondering if he is maybe sharing all this info as he's insecure / unsure of himself. As in, worried he is not confident or straightforward and trying to explain why without you having to second guess. Not that it should be used to excuse red flags or anything. Maybe he carried this stuff about with him and he feels comfortable being able to share it with you and until now has bottled it up. Just my two pence worth on it.

So he talks a lot of shite about his own life and he’s not interested in yours ?

You’ve already wasted too much time on this man - walk away now.

He is trying to elicit sympathy. Two months in is too early for the sad stories. I had an ex who regularly used to talk about how his dad abandoned him and it got to the point where I stopped having any feeling for him whatsoever. He used that as an excuse for not finishing high school, for not progressing in his career. His drink driving conviction was because his ex was pregnant - which doesn’t excuse that sort of behaviour. He wouldn’t finish year 12 or even get his high school certificate so that he could progress in his career. Everything was someone else’s fault.

Initially, I tried to help him. But I would give him so much attention and support and he wouldn’t take any advice, I felt like I was wasting my time. It got to the point where I couldn’t respect him and ended it with him rather abruptly.

Thank you for your replies.

Yes, I think it is good that he is a "vulnerable man", but to be honest it does make me feel drained. I tend to be a good listener and provide support, so it is also easy for him to talk to me. But yes, he is not that good listener and to be honest it makes me a bit sad that indeed he does not show such interest/support regarding my things. I mean, I do not necessarily need to whine about my things, but I would appreciate that if I bring something up, then he would be more curios. He says he does not want to violate the other person's privacy, that is why he is not keen on asking or digging deeper. I have told him that we are not strangers anymore and he can freely do it with me, but it has continued the same for the past months.

I got worried about the part where some of you said that it might end up in me ditching my social life. I mean, I'm still doing my own things but I must admit that I do not feel so much satisfaction, fun and ease doing these things anymore, because I keep thinking that he is alone at home waiting for me to meet him. This is not good news, I guess...?

I once mentioned him that perhaps he should seek therapy regarding his childhood bullying, it was during a very emotional conversation about him. I really thought that he is very hurt inside and could use some professional help. He declined the idea, saying that there is no reason for it, he is all OK and he just sometimes feels low. But to me, it actually seems that he is burying it deep down all the time. Or perhaps I should listen to him and accept that he is actually fine. Kind of confusing.

I guess I have started to feel drained and anxious and not so cheerful anymore as I used to be. I guess I just diagnosed myself thanks to you and discovered that I might not be happy if I continue this relationship...

Hi thinking - glad you're finding our input useful.

One thing leaps out at me from your most recent post. There's one short paragraph about how you're worried about losing your interests (a very valid worry, and an additional reason to leave) and two much longer ones which are all about him, his feelings, why he feels the way he does, why he's rejected your very sensible suggestion of seeing a counsellor.

You do come across as a people-pleaser (which makes you a very nice person, but isn't necessarily in your own best interests).

Try to shift the focus in your mind away from his feelings ("he does XYZ because he's sad and his sadness is important to me...") and onto his actions ("he does XYZ and any sane person would immediately realise XYZ is a completely unacceptable way to behave, and frankly, who the fuck cares why he does it, he just needs to stop or I'm out of here...")

My experience is that our social conditioning as women makes us spend way too much time thinking about other people's inner feelings and analysing their motives in the minutest, and most pointless detail (pointless because none of us are in another person's head and it's all just speculation anyway). I'm as guilty of that as the next woman.

What we actually need to do is spend more time thinking about our grannies' wise words: handsome is as handsome does. Hurty feelings in their heads do not compensate for shitty behaviour, and we should not put up with the behaviour.

Thinking please do avoid becoming the rescuer. I remember this so clearly when I met my ex, he’d tell me all his problems and how his life wasn’t fair etc etc and how he couldn’t realise his full potential because of it. I got sucked into thinking, oh poor him, I need to help him. If I can just get him to do x, or if I show him I love him enough then it’ll make him all better. Like you I’d make suggestions, good suggestions for things he could try, things we could do and offer potential solutions to problems and he didn’t want to know. The thing you need to do is take notice of his actions, not his words. You can point him in the right direction but you can’t let him latch on and you lead the way, because while he’s attached to you and you to him he can pull you back.If he won’t come willingly you can’t carry him because his victim status is too heavy and it’ll drag you down.

My ex was all words and big talk, but when it came down to it he did nothing. What he really wanted, is for me to stay in his comfort zone with him. He didn’t want to do x and what he really wanted is for me not to do x either, and eventually, if I did do x it would cause trouble and I wouldn’t do x again because I knew what was coming. It’s an insidious erosion of freedom. At first he says you’re free to do as you please. Then starts the moping and whining. Then come the arguments and the insecurity, ‘I’m only upset because I think you’ll meet someone else.’ Then before you know it you’re doing everything together, and the variety of things you do is narrow and repetitive because he doesn’t want to do anything or go anywhere else, and this all happens without you even realising it, or accepting that that is what your life will be like because you love him. Then one day you suddenly realise that all this time has passed and you’ve done nothing. You might be married with a child by then like I was and it’s very hard to get out at that point.

I want you to understand that it’s control. It might not look the same as constantly checking your phone and monitoring your movements but it’s control nevertheless. He might be kind, and generous, and loving, but as soon as you push back against the boundaries he’ll construct around your life the mask will slip and you’ll see a different him. I could never have imagined that poor sweet vulnerable man I though I knew being violent towards me, but when he thought I was stepping beyond the limits he’d set he was. He was all sorry and crying and insecure afterwards but then he was violent again, and again, and every time I crossed his line. Victimhood is a good tactic to insidiously bring people into line, but at the point where that no longer works, don’t be fooled into thinking the armoury is empty.

Please be very careful. It’s very easy to be swept away by feelings and honourable intentions and wanting to nurture, but what you’ll be doing is following him into his prison and he’ll lock the door behind you. It really is that bad. I lived with a man just like the one you describe for 11 years and it destroyed my confidence and self esteem. It’s taken me 6 years and counting to really start unpicking the damage and it’ll take me more years yet to get back to the person I once was. I’ll never get those years back. Please don’t walk into the same trap I did.

"Some People Are Drains and Some Are Radiators"

He's already sucking the emotional energy out of you, I've been there and it's seriously not a good situation to be in.
Everyone else is to blame and you're his free therapist!

Yes, I think it is good that he is a "vulnerable man"

Why is this 'good'? From what you say he's a drain on you, a bad listener, doesn't accord you the same sensitivity you do him, and has no social life or resources of his own, meaning everything falls to you. And you're buying the rescuer thing hook, line and sinker.

And this:

Try to shift the focus in your mind away from his feelings ("he does XYZ because he's sad and his sadness is important to me...") and onto his actions ("he does XYZ and any sane person would immediately realise XYZ is a completely unacceptable way to behave, and frankly, who the fuck cares why he does it, he just needs to stop or I'm out of here...")

My experience is that our social conditioning as women makes us spend way too much time thinking about other people's inner feelings

He's making you anxious and unhappy, OP. It doesn't much matter why. You need to look after your own MH, because he sure as fuck isn't going to. There's only room for one whiny, 'sensitive' victim in your relationship, and it isn't you.

@Whatisthisfuckery - I'm so sorry to hear about your experience. I'm glad you managed to get out of it and are now at least recovering. I hope you will be alright!

With the Yes, I think it is good that he is a "vulnerable man" I meant that overall in general I do think that it is OK that not all men are these alfa-males who never cry or share their vulnerable thoughts, that it is good that there are also men out there who share their sensitive part as well. But yes, I must admit that this particular man in a whole might not be the good vulnerable man, I'm afraid.

You have really made me think more clearly about my situation, this is very eye-opening to read your comments and your stories.

@FermatsTheorem It is true, I am pretty much a people-pleaser.
This is what really touched me, how reasonable it sounds (the first part is exactly what I am doing and now I see that the second part is exactly what I should do:
Try to shift the focus in your mind away from his feelings ("he does XYZ because he's sad and his sadness is important to me...") and onto his actions ("he does XYZ and any sane person would immediately realise XYZ is a completely unacceptable way to behave, and frankly, who the fuck cares why he does it, he just needs to stop or I'm out of here...")

Thank you all!

Very insightful post Whatisthisfuckery. I’m sorry you had to live through it to learn it.

OP, this man has been down this road before, because he has a ready made answer for all your helpful points. I conclude that you are not the first person to suggest them.

Why don’t you ever ask me about my past ?
Oh I wouldn’t want to invade your privacy.

Why don’t you get therapy ?
Oh no its all in the past.

Why don’t you go out with your friends?
None of them have any time for me.

Why don’t you start a new hobby ?
Everyone would laugh as me like they did when I was 10.

He doesn’t want your help. He wants your attention and to control you with his victimhood.

It’s also a red flag that he has been loved by other women in his life ( mother, grandmother ) but doesn’t care for or respect them.

Yes, his whole narrative is well practiced. All the shutdowns will be ready. If you happen to hit on a new angle he’s not encountered he’ll just think of a new excuse, or get angry, or go off in a huff. If you push him on anything he’ll get angry or go off in a huff. Whatever you do will be met with negativity or it’ll somehow turned into more poor me bollocks.

Re the vulnerability comment: True vulnerability takes bravery, and a big part of that is self examination and understanding the flaws in your personality, and trying to affect change for the better. A pity party in which you’re always the victim and centre of attention lamenting how the world has let you down is not the sign of vulnerability, it’s the sign of being utterly self absorbed.

OP, can I suggest you test the water. What sort of things does he refuse or not like to do? Is it going out to certain places, or doing certain things with you? Ask him to do one of these things with you. Tell him you really want to do this thing. Then when he makes excuses for not doing something, press him on it, further than you have to date. Press him until you get a reaction. You’ll find out a lot. If it’s just a case of him needing a shove then you’ll see some movement. If he is the sort of person I suspect he is then you’ll find out pretty quickly. Remember, this is a new relationship, he’s at his most keen and compliant right now, so if he doesn’t budge then he’ll never budge, and the things he won’t budge on will get more and more the more he feels his relationship with you is assured. Remember, if you stay with him, the things that he refuses to budge on will become the new boundaries of your life, because your life will be with him and he’ll expect to be the centre of it.

OP you've had some great advice here. I'd just like to add that it's not supposed to be this difficult, and that I bet you feel a relief when you break up with him (which you definitely should).

I had a relationship like this. Very odd. But I wasn't overly concerned at the time with the longevity of the relationship. The lack of interest in me would have been a massive issue if I was looking for a relationship/marriage. For that you need to be loved and valued. I wondered a lot whether this person could actually be into anybody other than themselves.
The woe is me aspect, manipulative I’d say. Not just playing the victim, but getting you to open up and identify, makes you vulnerable.

The victim is often an abuser and I think Lundy Bancroft describes him in his book Why Does He Do That. This man is treating you like a counsellor and making you feel bad about having a life. I'd get rid.

intheknowwithro.blogspot.com/2014/02/nine-types-of-abusers-who-are-you.html

pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2019/01/types-of-abusers-the-victim/