Separation? Can it work/help?

[HowdidIenduphere]

I am in such a mess, I really don't know what to do for the best and wondered if anyone had any advice or had experience of going through a separation and coming together as a couple again and making the marriage work?

My DH is seemingly blissfully unaware of how bad things have gotten between us even though I very nearly left about 6 months ago and a few weeks ago told him that if things didn't change in the next few months I didn't see me being able to cope anymore and that for my own well being I would need to take myself out of the situation.

We've tried counselling as a couple (after I almost left, I had asked him to go before that but he wasn't keen) but he took nothing from it at all and nothing changed from his end. It helped me massively with the anger I was feeling towards him but I don't have any real answers to why he acts the way he does so no real way of moving forward that I can see.

He told me two days ago after a row that he's literally just that second realised that things were as bad as all that after all.

I was just numbed at that because how could he have missed it all this time? We've talked about it, we've been to therapy, I've cried my heart out a fair amount and to top it off I almost left him and for a few weeks was sleeping in the spare room (only came back to the main bedroom because he couldn't sleep properly without me and it was affecting his work) so how do you not see how bad it is? On top of this he has always told me he understands and can see how hurt I've been and that he's sorry etc so how do you go from that to the other?

I'm at my wits end, exhausted and emotionally drained but I love my husband and I don't want to divorce him.
I have got him to agree to individual counselling for us both with a view to couples counselling if it seems appropriate but then he came out with "yes I think I need to speak to someone to find out if I have been at fault here and if so by how much"

Can a separation wake a person up to their behaviour and precipitate a real proper actual change for the better?

I just feel like I've been Charlie Brown's teacher all this time "WMPH WOMM WUM" is all he has seemed to hear and I think he thinks it's all in my head.

I do think he loves me very much but I am really doubting his capacity to be honest with himself let alone me and also doubting his ability to put me and my feelings first for a change instead of self preserving and twisting himself into contradictions to do so.

I'm finding the difference between his words and his actions really hard to deal with, he says he loves me and doesn't want to lose me but then doesn't take on board what I've been saying and do anything - I would try to calmly with understanding talk with him at the start to now the point where I feel like I've been taken for a mug, sold a false future and have turned into a bloody awful screaming banshee at times because he just doesn't get it - and that's awful in itself that now I'm getting so het up that i'm shouting at him!

I don't like playing games but I feel like something has to give or I'll break and scream I want a divorce at him so would a separation give him the shake he needs to decide if he wants to make the effort or not.

Feel really stupid to be honest because if it were a friend I'd say you've done enough and you've had enough, call it a day now and move on and heal. But I so want it to work.

Sorry just to say he is not abusive in anyway and I genuinely think he would be heartbroken if I left. I just think he is sleepwalking us into a divorce.

Sorry to bump this, feeling really down about it all and just wish I could fix it with a magic wand or something.

I'm sorry that you are going through this. I empathise.

Is the problem that he is emotionally unavailable? He doesn't talk with you at all.

I have so many questions, but based on my assumptions of the above, I have been through this and we have split up on 3 occasions -once for 2 years, but we got back together and we were back to the same old crap.

After 20 years I am done. I love him but I will get a divorce.

That sounds really difficult and actually, from what you describe I think a separation could be for the best. He sounds incredibly (deliberately?) obtuse about responding to your needs and doesn't at all take you seriously when you tell him how much it matters.
The fact that you could have gone through counselling together in addition to multiple discussions and he only now realises it's serious is quite surprising.

It's also really misguides of him to suggest that he will only go to counselling to find out "how much, if any" of the blame he should take. Blame isn't a great to approach couples counselling as all couples operate in particular dynamics where they feed off each other.

Sometimes a separation can be a really useful wake up call as long as you agree the terms beforehand and have some kind of time frame in mind. Certainly for a friend of mine, he said his marital separation was the wake up call he needed to 'snap out' of his crisis. Unfortunately by that point his ex had completely given up and wasn't willing to try again.
You can use the separation as a kind of experiment to see@
a) if he's willing to make the necessary changes
b) whether you actually still want to be in the relationship and what the minimum requirements would be for you to try again.

Good luck OP. It does sound like you've tried very hard so really the onus is on him now to do some work on the relationship.

If it helps you to see it as a temporary separation, then great. And there is a small chance that he might catch himself on if you formally separate. But, and I mean this kindly, please stop putting your life on hold and burning away your own sanity in the hopes he will "understand". History says the chances of him ever, ever understanding or changing are very poor indeed. You've wept, you've raged, you've moved out of the bedroom, you've done counselling, you've told him directly you don't think you can stay married to him unless things change. And what has happened, every time? He's declined to listen, and you've given in.

I would bet my boots that he could have your decree absolute in hand, and he'd still either a) think that you'll come around eventually, b) think "well, there's nothing I could have done".

If you were happier sleeping in another bedroom, move out to it again. You've got to remember that separating means his problems are not your problems any more. If he's having trouble sleeping, too bad, he'll adapt, and in the meantime he can go to the doctor or take up meditation like a normal person. Please stop sacrificing yourself on the altar of a lost cause. He will never give you back what you've given him; he will never give you permission to put yourself first. You have to change, and do it yourself. That's the only thing that has a hope of breaking this stalemate.

Thank you so much for replying!

Sorry there is so much stuff to put down tbh that I wrote bits of it out 3 times last night and deleted because I don't want to put out a lot of identifying info and also because it got ridiculously long!

Yes I think that's what I would say, I only find out important info when it's either dropped into conversations with other people in my hearing or when it's almost too late to do anything about. With just general day to day chit chat it's ok-ish but like trying to get blood from a stone if you ask any kind of question.

His reaction to questions is really quite odd because it could be as innocuous as "how was your day?" said in a nice way you know, not like I'm going all Spanish Inquisition on him but I get one word answers. He goes all stonewalled and cut off, it's really weird and something that we have talked about in the past - he says it's a hangup from his younger years and he is a very private person anyway, he talks to me and his parents and has only in the last 3 or so years started to open up to his best friend - nothing traumatic just everyday life/wife stresses - after a lot of encouragement from me to have at least someone other than me to talk his worries and hopes etc out with.

Sometimes I feel exhausted at playing being his therapist, especially when it's over something that he has done to upset me and I have to manage both our feelings. So really that was one of the main reasons I encouraged him to talk to his folks and friend. It just wasn't healthy IMO the way he kept everything to himself except the occasions where he would talk to me about stuff.

He will talk very excitedly (knows all the right things to say sometimes) about things he wants us to do but it's almost like a fantasy in his head that he never actually puts any effort into realising.

I'm always the one bringing up stuff - good or bad - all the time and it's met with almost constant resistance of some sort or another, it's really hard to explain.

A good but mild example of that was that we talked about getting a dog about a year ago.
We have both grown up with dogs and are feeling the lack of them in our lives. He was as enthusiastic as me when we started talking or so it seemed so my reaction was "Great! I'm so excited lets start looking into breeders"

Side note before anyone says rescue first, I would love to go to the rescue and give a needy dog a loving home personally but he would like a puppy for various reasons so after a bit of thought that's ok with me, I can always not so sneakily sneak in a rescue later on down the line after the puppy right?

Sorry I digress! The point was at the time we had enough money to put aside at least half of what a puppy would cost (regular garden variety family dog, no mad expensive mixed breeds with an interesting name although still a bit gobsmacked at what dogs go for these days!) and I threw myself into some research on the breed, health problems the breed is liable to suffer from, breed rescues and went on the hunt for some likely looking candidate breeders who may have a litter in the future.

I showed him a few pictures over a few days and every time he would come up with some arbitrary reason why he didn't fancy that breeder/place/smell god anything whatever.

I actually gave up because he has form for this sort of thing (the constant resistance to stuff) and now we have spent that money on other things, are a year down the line still with no dog (and now no money for a dog atm will have to save again) and the only time it gets mentioned is by him in a fantasy "wouldn't it be great if we had a dog?", "I can't wait to get a dog!" way but then he never actions it.

I really don't think it's a case of me thinking he's more excited than he actually is because I have asked him if he's not really too bothered just now or not quite as excited as me and he basically says that he would have the dog yesterday if he could.

There's a lot of other stuff, a bit of lying (now seemingly nipped in the bud after years of frustration trying to get him to stop - threatened to tell the next person he lied to exactly what had happened. I find that a troubling coincidence as he has told me that this is also a lifetime habit that would be hard to break. It stopped overnight when I threatened to out him. He says it's exaggeration or "bullshitting", his mother calls it "a bit of the old flannel" but I call purposley misleading or telling an untruth is usually called a lie - I'm not talking the tactful "no you look amazing!" when you haven't brushed your hair and wake up with beadhead white lies everyone with a bit of sensitivity might tell I'm talking proper lies that don't have a real effect like "so and so is working for me and I pay him £" when he has no employees and has never paid anyone £ and in fact so and so runs his own business so doesn't work for anyone but himself.

I'm really sorry to hear it didn't work out for you Alone, it is truly heartbreaking as I'm sure you saw it coming sooner than he did, same as me.

Meand

Thank you I have swung between is he doing it deliberately or not a fair amount but on balance I think he is actually a really good person underneath all this shite that's happened but if I for one second thought that had changed I'd be off quicker than a very fast thing.

You can maybe tell I have been in abusive relationships before and I do recognise that while his behaviour has been pretty shoddy at times it doesn't come from a malicious place.

I would normally agree with you 100% on the blame game because it's all a two way street and totally unhealthy and counterproductive to go down that route.
The thing is though that the particular incident he was referencing with the find out blame and how much comment was actually something that I really and truly think was absolutely his fault, I gave lots of options to help make that situation better but he insisted on ploughing on as he was and caused a lot of damage to me in the process. I don't want to say exactly what it is but it wasn't an infidelity or anything but was extremely hurtful to me and along the lines of saying one thing and doing the complete opposite.

I was kind of hoping that individual counselling would help him see that he had a very large part in that situation and he handled it so so so badly and although it can never be changed and I am no longer angry, there will always be a bit of hurt there that it fell out the way it did when it really shouldn't have and I don't know I just want to feel like he is really going to take responsibility for that, understand why he did it in the first place and then prevent it from happening again.

SoHot

That is exacty my fear! That after all that's gone he will never get it and never be able to be that person. That scares me terribly because self fooling idiot that I may be, I thought that's who he was.
I have even said myself that I am on hold waiting for our lives to get off the ground - we've been together nearly 10 years.

It makes me sound very childish but I just wish it wasn't this way.

I'm really worried and beyond sad because I think you could very well be right and I'm on a hiding to nothing here.

FWIW on the sleeping it's really because he was starting to take days off from sleep deprivation and "depression" (his doc says he's not depressed nor does he have a personality disorder coz he freaked about that the other day and wanted checked) he's just feeling sad.

I did put my foot down about him being a light sleeper (I wasn't sleeping either but apparently I was banging about - I wasn't - in the other room) so told him that was his issue that he can hear a mouse fart at 20 miles and he needed to buy himself earplugs - cue the "where am I going to get earplugs from?" this from the man who has friends who shoot and has bought earplugs online and in the pharmacy before!

You know what OP, it’s not just him who needs to open his eyes and face reality. You do too.

He is what he is and he won’t change and your marriage won’t change. In life you have to be responsible for your own happiness and contentment. He is not your solution. You can only change things for yourself and by yourself.

I was going to say the same as @LemonTT.

He kiks never going to change, it is always going to be like this. He isn't a lovely man, he is incredibly selfish - he only cares about himself. He's found himself a 'fixer' in you, and he believes you will stay forever, trying to find the key to him 'getting it' - thinking that there is something you can do or say where he will have a sudden Road To Damascus moment.

He never will. Look to his actions, not his words. He be lying less, but when words don't match actions? A person is the sum of what they do, not what they say.

So unless this is how you want the rest of your life like this, your only option is to end it.

I strongly suspect that if you do, he will convince you to give it one more go, with promises of all you ever wanted. Don't waste your time giving him more than one chance (I'd say don't fall for the lies, but I think you'll find it impossible to not give him one more chance when he makes all the promises).

Lemon

Thank you for replying, I do know that I have to be responsible for my own happiness and it can't all come from him.

I do appreciate that I can effectively change things by walking away but the ever present hope shines on - a little flickery but it's there all the same.

I know this is very typical ^ and in a way am holding myself hostage over the possibilities.

However I do have an update of sorts. I also appreciate that I would be rather stupid to take this at face value without some action behind it ASAP and consistently keeping it up from there but I actually think he had a light bulb moment.

After our row I was going to go stay with my mum for a bit but he offered to go to his instead.

Since he's been gone he's done a lot of thinking, a lot of talking to his folks (who have been very balanced and fair thankfully, no taking sides) and doing a bit of research into mindfulness type therapy he can work with at home while awaiting counselling.

He called me today as we had agreed before he left that we'd give each other a few days to settle and then talk.
We had a really really good proper conversation about things.
I cannot stress the conversation bit enough, seriously! It was so calm and I actually feel good after talking and that is really not the usual way for these things to go!

He without prompting actually made practical suggestions rather than vague "I want to make it work"s.

They sound like really good ways to help him communicate in a healthier way, maybe get a bit of personal insight. Basically all good proactive suggestions that I genuinely think will help.

He added that he absolutely still does want to, and appreciates the need for him to speak to a counsellor. He has an individual appointment booked.

He also said that it wasn't just for me he was going, but also for himself which I take as a really good sign of some personal growth. (sounds like warts writing it like that sorry!)

There's things he thinks are not connected to our relationship that are personal hang ups that he'd like to work on - tbh I actually think that getting help with some of his personal stuff would be really helpful to us in general too (confidence in some areas and self esteem issues mainly but clarity of thought I think will come of him knowing himself better.

I'm glad he's seeing it as a positive he can do for himself because whilst he has been neglectful of my needs he does also neglect his own at times and I think he could benefit in himself from a bit of self care.

Without prompting again he said how it must have been really awful apart from all the hurt he has caused me, that he hadn't been validating my feelings by acknowledging the problem and what he had done to play a part in it.
He recognises fully how damaging it has been for him to have pretty much wilfully stuck his head in the sand over it and hoped as we all do sometimes that by not confronting it would go away.

There was a lot of other stuff said but in all honesty I think this was a serious moment for him, no deflections, no hedging, no defensiveness etc just a properly honest conversation.

We have discussed a short term separation whist we both see our individual counsellors because we both are aware that if we go too fast we risk falling into old patterns of behaviour.
He particularly pointed out that he really didn't want that to happen as he can see how close to the edge I've been and he doesn't want to make a mistake that will push me further away right now - a valid and (yes I sound a bit twatty here) well thought out point from him I think.

We will hash out a proper plan later. We left the conversation on a really good note and both agreed that we will talk again tomorrow or Wednesday depending on where we both are at the time.

I would like to add that I do have my faults here too and I have done some distancing from the relationship in a lot of ways so I feel like there are some small things I can definitely do that will really help with making us a team again - with the caveat above that he keeps his end of the deal too!

It will most certainly not be me thinking it's all sorted and pulling out all my stops to make life good while he keeps on spinning his wheels.

I am going into this with my eyes open to the real possibility that it could still all fall flat on it's face but this was a revelation from him really - I've never heard him actually be so self reflective and honest before.

He feels and sounds like he is actually engaging with this.

I feel a bit more positive and that there is actually now more than an icicles hope in hell of us actually coming out of this still married and liking each other.

Please forgive my terrible grammer/spelling etc I actually haven't slept a lot myself since he left because my brain has been swirling... TBF I've never been brilliant at them on a good day.

Oh ChristmasFluff, do you actually know me in real life?

You are right on the money about me giving him this VERY SERIOUSLY LAST chance!

I know he doesn't come over great here and I absolutely agree that someone is who they show you and not who they say and that he is the sum of all his parts.

I will say as all women in my position do (I'm a bloody cliche!) that he does actually have some really good points about him and I don't think anyone has the time (or patience) for me to bang on about all the selfless/nice/thoughtful stuff that he has done.

I am at the end of my rope though and for all that I really do think he is not a bad person - he has acted very badly! - this will be the last chance saloon for him, I cannot keep on like this any longer because I will end up very ill and miserable if I stay and nothing changes.

I really really mean that, if his finger doesn't get pulled out sharpish then I will be leaving never to return sad to say.

God I hate that you can't edit!

Re the lying - I am very good at picking up on his lies to other people, he doesn't lie maliciously if you know what I mean so they aren't hard to spot as he never covered them up.

He is not lying anymore absolutely and he knows that not only is one more lie also a dealbreaker but as I said above I will make it clear to the person he has lied to that he has done so.

He's an intelligent bloke but not clever enough or manipulative enough to do these things "on purpose" and I really brought it home that was it for me on the lying.

I know I very much appear to be minimising but it's been months and months since he lied and I have witnessed him correct himself and apologise to people on the few times when he has exaggerated to them.

He didn't know I was able to hear for at least one of these so I'm pretty sure it's not just a tell the truth when the wife is present type thing.