Sister dating my abusive exes friend [Edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

[Lockcodger]

I've really had to debate with myself whether to write this post on here because I know my Dsis comes on MN but I really need some perspective from someone who is not emotionally involved in all of this.

My Dsis (18 mo older than me) broke up with her EA ex (which she's in denial about the abuse) of 4 years back in October. I was in my own EA relationship (which I was in denial about at the time) and my ex invited a few friends round to my house who had come to stay with him (they were from his home town 200 miles away). My Dsis was feeling down about the breakup so I invited her over to join us.

My Dsis and one of my exes friends ended up sleeping together that night (which according to her was pressured and unprotected). He went home (200 miles away) a couple of days later so they spend around 2 days together.

A week later, I found out my ex had been prolofically cheating on me. Strip clubs, porn, dating sites, sending women lewd messages on Facebook. I realised after this he was abusive and a narcissist and a dangerous man as he'd abused previous partners and I could now see how EA he was to me. I also found out he has a reputation for this in his old town, everyone knows and I know all of his friends knew (who I know now are also unsavoury characters). About a week after I'd broken up with him, he started a campaign of harassment messaging me, my family members and even my boss to try and get me fired. I have worked many years for my career and my boss is like a father figure to me (he was my undergraduate supervisor at uni) so this was particularly devastating for me. My ex is in court next week so this is all very raw for me still and I feel I have a battle ahead of me.

My Dsis was fully aware of what I was going through as we often confide in each other and when it first happened, I told her how uncomfortable I felt that she was choosing to continue seeing this guy she had known for 2 days when he was friends with my ex (he'd gone back home at this point so could have easily just not seen him again). She basically decided to keep seeing him and I said I dont want to hear anything about him and I dont want him anywhere near me or my children. I know she is an adult and in any other circumstance I wouldnt mind her seeing this guy but he is friends with my abuser and he very likely knew he was abusive and cheating on me. Someone who has put me through hell, destroyed my confidence and nearly cost me my career. I'm worried that he's feeding back information about me to my ex and with the court case coming up, I just cant bare it. My sister is also a witness in the case as my ex sent her messages about me.

What makes it worse is that this guy has so many red flags himself and she just cant see it. He wouldnt tell her his age, changed the number of people he told her he'd slept with from 3 to 10, has a reputation of being a player, pressured her into unprotected sex on the first night, said he had family from a certain part of the country so she paid for them to fly there and the day before said that he actually didn't have family from there (why lie?), is an alcoholic, lies about where and who he is living with, told her he loved her when they had only met twice. He says he is no longer friends with my ex and that she doesn't really talk about me with him but I know its bullshit and it's impossible to be in a relationship with someone and not let slip things about your sister and family. I might be overreacting but I dont want my ex to know anything about me, no matter how trivial.

They've met about 5 times since October and she is now bringing him to family events (most recently a family funeral so I didn't go) and allowing him to stay at her house with her young daughters. I've told my parents how much this is upsetting me and they basically said just because my ex is a bad person, it doesnt make him one but then why would he be friends with someone like this if he doesnt condone this behaviour?

What's even worse is that she also has feelings for a male friend who lives locally, is a lovely guy and she has known since school but she cant decide who she wants to be with (nothing has happened yet with this guy) and rings me to talk about it despite me saying I dont want to talk about my exes friend. Why would she keep seeing a guy who she's clearly not sure about when she knows how upsetting I'm finding it and could lead to me just cutting her out of my life.

I know she is a victim of abuse and has low self esteem which is why she's loving the attention from this dickhead and falling for the bullshit but I feel like her need for validation from men is more important to her than her own sister. I could honestly cut contact with my parents too over this as it's a pattern in my family where no one cares how things affect me. I was sexually abused by my Dsis's 19 year old boyfriend when I was 11 (she was 13) because my parents wanted to stop her running away with him so they let him stay in the house. This happened again when I was 14 with another of her boyfriends who was 19. I know that isn't her fault but all of those feelings are being brought back to me by this situation.

What should I do?

Just to add, these are how the conversations go with my Dsis. Let's call my exes friend Mike and her Male friend Bob.

'Things are really weird between me and Bob because I spent the weekend with Mike' (at the family funeral)

'Bob has started seeing someone so I'm just going to concentrate on Mike'

'Bob is spending the weekend with me but I feel so bad on Mike'

I just want to bang my head against the wall. I had to go to work today on 4 hours sleep because I got a call from a private number past 12am and they wouldnt speak and were making a banging sound like they were punching their hand. I then couldn't sleep because I thought it could be my ex trying to intimidate me before court next week. This is still happening, it's all very real for me and I'm still living in fear. Meanwhile, I have to listen to the most tedious will they, wont they ever!

Anyone?

It sounds like you should go little to no contact with your sister for a while. Call her and when she starts talking about Mike then say
I'm not comfortable talking about him
I'm not interested in talking about him
Change the subject, if she won't stop then hang up and repeat. You need to start setting clear boundaries with her and with your parents.
Do you also have a therapist or counsellor? This would be really useful for you to process your feelings.

Decide what your terms of engagement are for your sister, as an example, you're happy to discuss the latest series of killing eve but not anything that could get back to your ex about your life via Mike. It may mean you can't be as close because you can't trust her not to relay info back but that's a hard decision you may need to make.

I agree with the reduce contact advice, if she persists in talking about this jackass hang up on her, firm and clear boundaries are needed here.

Have you had any counselling for the sexual abuse you suffered when younger, I was in a somewhat similar boat and was sexually abused by a family friend, when my mum found out about it he stopped abusing me but was still allowed in the family home and I had to just go along with this (I was primary school aged when this happened) and never speak about what happened. She failed me as a parent and your family have failed you, repeatedly. It is clear that no respect is given to you, no consideration for your feelings or what support you may need right now, this abusive man tried to wreck your life and all your sister is concerned with is this sad sack of a bloke and the drama of "loving" two men and acting stupid over both.

You deserve to be taken care of right now and your family are not up to the job, get a support system in place and take a step back from them all for now and then decide what you need when you feel stronger.

My sister is also a witness in the case as my ex sent her messages about me

I missed this bit, so is it possible this guy messing with your sister because she is a witness in the case against his friend? Can she not see how monumentally stupid she is being about a guy she does not know at the expense of you, her sister?

Thanks Shox. I told her when they first got together that I didn't want to discuss this man and she basically ignored it and continued. It's difficult to bring things up with her as we've not spoken for years at a time before when she fell out with me over stupid arguments. She would not take me hanging up on her well at all. How do I set boundaries with my parents? They dont seem to really care how I feel about this and expect me to accept her choice, no matter how terrible.

The problem is that she is so vulnerable to abusive men as she is unable to recognise the signs and even when they are right in front if her she gets selective amnesia about events. I feel responsible for exposing her to this horrible man and it's a waiting game until it all goes wrong and I'll be expected to then council her through it.

Another thing that bothering me is that I had to put up with her previous EA ex for 4 years at every family event. He was directly competitive with me about my career (he was definitely a covert narc) so would constantly go on about how he would be more successful than me if he hadn't had such a hard life, was stroppy when my Dsis spent time talking to me, was rude to my children, was physically abusive to her child (which she is in complete denial about) and I had to council her through every time he cheated whilst she maintained he was the best thing that had ever happened to her. He even managed to ruin my best friends wedding abroad and I spent the day counselling her when it was the first holiday abroad I'd had with my DC and I just wanted to enjoy it with them.

My parents as always completely refused to see the problem and at one point were even going to let this man live with them for free so he could save for a house deposit and not affect my sisters benefits (he lived with her for 4 years and contributed nothing to the household but none seemed to think this was a problem).

I was so happy when she finally got rid of this guy and I thought we could be close again but here we are, once again i have to go low contact with my family over a man my sister chose. Its exhausting and I'd love to just move away but I'm trapped by my job.

Prioritise your own mental wellbeing. It doesn't matter if your sister doesn't react well to you setting boundaries. With your parents, would it help you to acknowledge to yourself that they're not going to ever be the supportive kind people you deserve. Don't have any expectations for them and they can't keep disappointing you.

After the court case, then you should consider a low level of contact for them as well. Be polite but don't engage too much. Don't answer everytime she calls. I know you told her you didn't want her to talk about him and she continued but you continued listening, so stop. It's going to feel really weird to start putting down boundaries for yourself but its really necessary for your own mental health which has to be your priority

Chuckle your post just made me cry. This is exactly how I feel, completely failed and invalidated by my family. I'm so sorry about what happened to you and that your parents didn't protect you. Talk about making a child feel insignificant!!

No, she is monumentally stupid when it comes to men (and so is my mother). Shes already saying things like 'I know hes not a player because he's so shy', I know he's been abused by previous exes and by his family, I know he hasnt slept with that many people, I've only given him a little bit of money, I feel sorry for him etc. I said to her the other day not to tell 'Mike' something very specific and she asked why

I've told her these are all red flags but then chooses to ignore.

I told my mum exactly how I feel yesterday and brought up that none cared when I was abused as I child and that this is bringing it all back and she just said shes sorry I feel this way and that she loves me.

Have a look at this post and also all of captain awkward advice about boundaries, it's really excellent

captainawkward.com/2019/03/04/1182-1183-1184-do-i-have-to-be-friends-with-my-sibling-or-advice-for-relationships-you-dont-want-to-lose-but-dont-want-to-work-at/#more-46326

she just said shes sorry I feel this way

Has she ever apologised for failing you as a kid? Has she admitted her mistake in allowing an adult (19 yr old "boyfriend") to live with her minor 13 yr old daughter and allowing him access to her 11 yr old to make life easier for herself? How about stopping her 13 year old running away by laying down firm boundaries and doing tough parenting, not allowing an adult male access to her children who are vulnerable.

From reading your posts OP it seems your parents take the head in the sand approach to parenting, they don't want any fuss or disturbance to them so anything goes and people just have to get on with it, unfortunately this has left you and your sister vulnerable to abuse and from experience being abused once leaves you vulnerable to continued abuse as an adult. Like you I ended up in an emotionally abusive relationship as an adult and now 35 years on from my childhood abuse am I facing up to the damage it caused me, I learned from a very early age that I was not worth anything more. the people who should have loved and protected me thought me that I was not worth more, it is going to take me huge amounts of work and time to undo the lifelong lesson that I have learned about my value.

My advice to you is to get some counselling, they are expert at untangle not only the harm and lessons we learn from being abused but in handling the complex family relationships that allowed such a thing to happen.

Thanks for the link, alot of the advice does make sense and I am going to distance myself from my parents and sister. I rely on my parents heavily for childcare so I can work and i'm scared about setting boundaries with them but I know it needs to be done. I can also recognise that me and my sister rely on each other to be on demand counsellors which is unhealthy and I'm not sure I would speak to her that often without this dynamic as shes very self centred so I'm putting an end to that right away.

I have had counselling in the past but I dont think my counsellor was right for me and I wasn't ready to really face and challenge the root of my problems. I do think I need to try again as I dont want to live like this anymore.

Coming out of this relationship has rocked me to my core and forced me to start unpacking why I have allowed myself to continually be in abusive relationships. Its opened up alot of childhood wounds and made me realise just how toxic my family are. I also recognise my sister is a victim also but theres only so much selfishness I can take (theres lots more that's happened between us over the years).

My mum definitely puts her head in the sand. My dad is EA but she puts it down to him being autistic and OCD (neither of which have been diagnosed) and I have started to become angry that she didn't protect us from him and still continues to defend him. My dad openly favours my sister and her children. I'm labelled as difficult because I call out his behaviour and dont just forgive and forget when he hasnt acknowledged his behaviour or apologised. My sister just goes along with whatever he wants.

One thing that's really bothering me is that my dad bought a house (I lived in it for 18 months, he rented it privately for 2 years and then my sister lived in it for 4 years). The mortgage has been paid off and he wants to sell it to give both me and my sister a deposit for our own house (we both rent atm) but hes going to split the proceeds 40/60 (so my sister gets about 20k more than me) because she lived there longer and decorated it. What annoys me is that she was claiming hb but if she was short of money he would let her off the rent (I know this happened alot) and now she is living there rent free (and she likes to lord it over me how she is so good with money and always has thousands in savings). When I said this was unfair, my dad just said tough and ita his decision.

Sorry, going off on a tangent there but it's part of why I feel they always put her first.

and no, my parents never apologised. I remember bringing it up with my dad about 10 years ago ( I was crying and very upset at the time) and he just said the man was 17 not 19 and that was the end of the conversation.

I never brought it up again until yesterday with my mum. I'm always just told they did their best but neither will acknowledge what their decisions at the time cost me for the rest of my life.

For your own mental well-being you have to let go of the hope that your family will be different because it’s the hope, that is standing in the way of you reducing your exposure to their bullshit.

Your sister is far to busy with her issues to respect your boundaries, which means you have to be extra vigilant around her and if you can’t be, then you have to limit her access to you.

Your parents sound toxic. Is there any way you can use somewhere else for childcare? I'm not sure they're a good option as they've been so unsupportive for you. Definitely more counselling would be a good idea.

Don't try to get closure or an acknowledgement from them when they're not going to give it. Do you have any close friends you can trust?

I really wish I could use someone else for childcare but I feel trapped by the set up we have now (and I have to show my parents I'm eternally grateful for their help so cannot criticise anything they do with my DC as they will refuse to have them)

One of my DC has emotional and behavioral problems (due to his abusive father and me being a stupid young mum who didn't protect him enough) and has been taken out of mainstream school so I rely heavily on my parents to look after him as I have to leave for work at 7am and dont get home until 7pm. His afterschool club wont take him. He wants to be at their house all of the time anyway because he's basically left to his own devices (he's 10) and has no boundaries. My eldest DS is 14 and wants to be at their house all the time for the same reasons and my middle DS is a school refuser (a whole other thread but he is on the waiting list for an ASD diagnosis).

My life is a complete mess!

I've thought about quitting my job but it's very specialised so there isn't any jobs I can do locally and I would have to relocate 100's miles to find a similar position and pay which would mean no childcare so I couldn't work anyway. I could just get a local more commutable job for a massive loss in pay (not to mention a waste in all my degrees and training) but with the deposit for a house in reach and I might finally be in a position to buy, I'm so close to give up now.

I think essentially if I could manage my DS on my own, I would cut all contact with my family. I really dont like any of them. I have a few friends but they have their own lives and families to worry about. I really feel so trapped and I would love to just disappear with my DC and finally end this toxic cycle of abuse.

I agree I need to let go of any hope that they can change. Especially my sister, I feel like she's too far gone in her codependance with abusive men to ever have a good relationship with.

I also can't forgive how selfish she is being about this whole situation. It's always about her, her needs, her wants and to hell with the effect on anyone else. If shes happy, I rarely hear from her, it's only when she wants to vent or complian. I give her advice and she never takes it and I know she is jealous of certain things I have achieved and will make snide comments or openly admit shes jealous and almost glad it didn't work out for me (she said she was initially jealous of how well my abusive ex treated me after I found out how awful he really was). It sounds immature but shes chosen to pursue this relationship over ours as sisters and until she recognises that, I dont want to see it speak to her.

Your 13 yr old sister had a 19 year old bf? That your parents allowed? That's child abuse, your parents basically set your sister up to be a victim, I actually read your post in utter disbelief.

Reading your further posts, if I was you I would not allow my DC near your parents, you admit all the issues they have no doubt caused by your parents influence on them. These are people who facilitated child abuse and you allow them to raise your kids?!
Get a grip, go NC with all of them; parents, sisters, Id go as far as relocating and if you need to take a different job, less income then do it for your DCs welfare or they too are heading for a life of misery.
One of the first threads I'm genuinely shocked by.

My Dsis and one of my exes friends ended up sleeping together that night (which according to her was pressured and unprotected)
She was probably bullshitting you for the attention.

NC or very strong boundaries are the best way to deal with these toxic people.

Bookworm I'm really just coming to terms with all of this and I'm not in a strong place at all to be able to make drastic changes all in one go. My whole life this has been normalised and I feel like I'm only just waking up to reality. I read an article someone linked on here that described coming out of a relationship with a narc is like coming out of a cult. I feel my whole life has been this way and I have to relearn everything whilst cutting out the people I have leaned on for support my whole life.

My DC all have issues because inevitably (which I see now) I married their abusive father aged 18 which looking back was a desperate attempt to escape my family. It totally backfired and made me more dependent on them and I cant help but feel my dad enjoys the control over me and my DC this gives him. I also feel like a hypocrite because I haven't been the best mum to them by not standing up more to my dad and not cutting contact before we ended up in this situation. I've taken on alot of poor parenting habits from my dad such as yelling all the time and I'm always so stressed so they dont get 100% of me. The only positive I can hang onto is that I left their father when they were fairly young and have fought to stop all contact with him so I protected them as much as possible from him at least. I would never let them be in the situation I was in as a child and if i felt my parents were putting them in any danger, i would step in immediately.

It's so difficult to cut out my mum because we all love her and I know she doesn't do things out of malice. Shes damaged herself and my DC would be devastated if I said they couldn't see her anymore, especially since they have already lost so much and have no contact with their dad and his family. They are in their teens now (except youngest DS) so it's hard to impose things without having to explain something I cant even get my head around plus they can just walk to the house after school and if I try to set boundaries at home, they will call my mum to pick them up or walk there so I can never really parent them how I would like (I.e impose more restrictions and punishments that I never had) to stop them turning out like me.

Oh lockcodger I have been exactly where you are, in some ways I still am. I'll tell you how I extricated myself bit by bit (although I am still somewhat entangled with my toxic family and have a way to go)..

First I got rid of the abusive partner. You've done this bit, well done.
Then I made monumental efforts to organise my life so I wouldn't have to rely on him, which involved dropping from full time to part time and claiming benefits to make up the shortfall, making really close friends who also need support so we can offer each other reciprocal guilt-free childcare, really channelling all my energy into improving my parenting and relationship with my dc so that they stopped being little shits, asking for help when usually I would struggle alone, cutting down on anything that takes my time and energy away from myself and my dc, and also being honest with dc about certain things so that they take on more responsibility (which they are very willing to do).

I've just recently gone self employed so that I can do the school runs myself and - crucially - not rely on my mum for childcare. I am poorer than ever before but the freedom and relief of not being reliant on either my mum or my ex more than makes up for it.
I haven't gone nc with my family but now I feel I don't have to as I only see them when I choose to.

If your dc are teens do they still need childcare? In your situation, improving your relationship with them and showing them that you trust them to behave well and look after themselves a little more may be the most straightforward step you can take at the moment.

Thanks Mycat. I really hope I can achieve what you have one day.

The childcare issue is mainly with my youngest and although my eldest turns 15 this year, he's not mature enough to look after youngest DS and he clashes with middle DS so I cant leave them unsupervised for long periods. I'd love to be self employed but I work in science so its difficult to find much I can do with that other than high pressure fields like research, industry or healthcare. My employer is also very unsupportive and abuses the flexitime policy so that theres basically no flexibility at all despite them being aware of my situation and the court case.

I've already spoken to them about dropping my hours to 2 days but i need to keep my income as high as possible until I get a mortgage. I've no idea when this money will come through though so i feel like I'm in limbo atm.

I feel like I need to change so many things at once and it's so overwhelming. Why can't I just have a normal family where we all support and love each other? I'm tired of feeling like everything is my fault and that I've failed everyone by wanting things to change.