Need some advice about DM not respecting NC

[Honeybee85]

I have had a very turbulent childhood, many things my parents did to me classify as fysical and mental abuse according to the therapist that helped me to deal with some traumas. My DF was the main problem but DM enabled him and definetly has narc caracter traits in common with him.

After getting pregnant with DC, their behaviour became worse to the point where DM sent me an abusive email a few months ago full of hatred and the message she never wanted to speak to me again. After that I sent a polite email back to say : yes, perhaps NC is better because all this stress is not good for unborn DC and myself. At that moment I was in the proces of moving across the world to live with DH and both parents refused to help me with the moving because they were insulted about the fact that appearently I was not grateful enough for ‘ all they did for me in the past’. After I sent DM the email back she kept stalking me because she wanted ‘one last meeting to talk things out’ and even came to my home and refused to stop ringing the bell and knocking on the door until I finally let her in because I felt trapped and didnt want her to be a nuisance to the gossip loving neighbours. The talk went OK, she actually seemed to regret some of her actions. Shortly after that I moved abroad.

She texted me only once or twice during several weeks and DF didnt contact me at all. Before I left I asked them to keep some personal items from me in their home that I would take with me the next time I came home (photo albums, precious gifts from friends, things that belonged to my beloved late DGM). To my horror, a few weeks later, DF sends me an email out of the blue stating that I am a worthless daughter who is only taking advantage of him and DM, he never wants to see me again and if I dont take my stuff before X date, he will throw away everything. Being heavily pregnant and on the other side of the world, there was no way I could go there in 3 days to collect my stuff. I contacted my dear auntie (DA), explained without too many details what was going on and asked her if she could retrieve 1 beloved item from DM and DF and keep it in her home for a few months. I contacted DM too to say how unacceptable this is (she was in the CC of DF’s email and email was seemingly written on behalf of her as well) and how angry and hurt I was. Her response was that she was divorcing DF and if I had any anger to vent, I should email him. Later I contacted her again to say DA promised me to retrieve the item but she didnt respond and refused to talk to DA. Eventually my best friend picked it up from the reception from DF’s office, as DM eventually agreed that this arrangement was OK.

After that, I told DM that this time I would go NC and they had violated enough boundaries. I never contacted DF as I am scared of him, I knew he would send me very abusive messages if I reacted to him and wanted to protect myself.

I can go into labour any day now and suddenly my parents in law contacted DH to say my DM sent them a package. Inside was one of my belongings and a card to the inlaws saying DM doesnt know my adress (I hadnt given that to her yet as I felt the need to protect that info because of their previous behaviour, they have my phone number and emailadress) and the request to pass the item to me. No card or anything else inside for me. She knew my inlaws adress as they have sent her a card a few months ago.

I was very upset and DH too. We both feel she did this to upset me and embarass me. I send her a message last night that I want again to ask her to leave us alone, we need to focus on other things now and I dont want to involve my inlaws in this, they feel uncomfortable which I completely understand and I hate it that its because of my family. And I told her she is doing this as a revenge for letting my auntie know what is going on. I asked my auntie because 1) I trust her, and 2) I knew I was going NC with parents after this and wanted someone in the family to keep me updated about my lovely DGM’s condition from DM’s side, who is vv old and not doing so well.

My DM just send me an email back to say she is disappointed I see her ‘ surprise’ as a negative thing and she had no intention to involve my inlaws in the conflict. Also indirectly accusing me of involving DA as a revenge to my parents.
I feel I shouldnt react at all, DH says the same.

Sorry for the long story but does anyone have some advice for me? Much appreciated xx

Your parents have not fundamentally changed since your own childhood. This is who they are and it is not your fault they are like this. You did not make them that way.

Do not at all respond now to this from your mother, you have already seen from responding to her previously that it does not go well for you.

This package now as you rightly surmise was sent to upset and embarrass your DH and you. You cannot keep on sending her messages in reply because this is what they want!. The response to such disordered of thinking people is the reward because they know they have you then. Any message however carefully worded will backfire on you because you are giving these people ammo to lob at you. Stop replying and start blocking your parents on all channels.

Do not keep on falling for such trickery; what your parents are practising here is a behaviour known as "hoovering". Its a technique beloved of narcissists and is used to try and further control their targets in this case both you and your H. They also have used what they see as weak points i.e your inlaws and your H to get back at you.

This is a further explanation of hoovering:-

When someone has gone no-contact—in other words, the survivor has chosen to disengage completely from the abusive person—often the person with narcissism will attempt to see if the door is still open for more narcissistic supply. He or she may “hoover” prior survivors by emailing, texting, phoning, or showing up at a survivor’s workplace or residence under the pretext of apologizing for transgressions, delivering flowers, hitting the reset button, or feigning illness or a need for assistance (money, return of belongings, etc.).

This cycle is akin to the Power and Control Wheel often referred to in the domestic violence recovery community. The hoover maneuver is an attempt to see if a prior target of abuse can be conned into another cycle of abuse, resulting in the abusive person reclaiming a sense of power and control by causing pain (emotional and sometimes physical) to a target.

Survivors of narcissistic abuse should not be fooled by the hoover maneuver. Such an action is not a sign that the abusive person loves the survivor or that he/she can change and suddenly develop reciprocity, authentically own responsibility for mistakes, and consistently show emotional maturity. The analogy of a vampire sinking fangs into the jugular vein works here. The abusive person may home in on the target’s vulnerabilities (wanting to be accepted, loved, attractive, etc.) and try to hook that person back into another abuse cycle, solely for the benefit of soothing the abusive person’s ego—no more, no less.

It’s advisable for a survivor to continue with no contact and block the abusive person from email, text, phone, and any other form of communication. In most circumstances, assuming the survivor does not reengage, eventually the “hoovering” will stop. However, if the abusive person harasses or stalks the target, the survivor may want to consider seeking legal action and/or getting the police involved, including but not limited to filing a restraining/protective order.

It goes without saying as well that your child should not have any form of relationship with your parents because of their past and present abusive behaviours. They will do your child harm similarly as to how you have been harmed by them. If your Hs parents are emotionally healthy then concentrate your resources on them going forward.

You have physical distance between your abusive parents and you; you now need to put proper mental distance between you and they also.

You may want to read and or post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages. The resources on there at the start of that thread are worth reading.

Tell your in laws to bin anything else they receive for you and ask them to not engage with her at all in every way.

You do the same.

Atillathemeerkat, thank you very much! I have been reading a lot about narc abuse lately and I also felt it was hoovering at first. A part of me still has doubts though if she was really intending to send me a nice surprise and if I can not see her good intentions anymore. I will also take a look at the Stately Homes thread!

Aussiebean, I was thinking to indeed do that if they send me anything that didnt belong to me before trough my inlaws. I do however feel a bit hesitant to demand from my inlaws what they should do regarding receiving anything from my parents. They feel clearly uncomfortable and I dont want to make them feel I am involving them too...

In short you haven't gone NC because you keep responding to them so they keep contacting you...

Ignore everything and anything from them.

@RandomMess

You are 100% right.
I wanted to be civil and explain no I really want NC and I need peace but as DH said tonight I csn repeat that message each time they reach out and after 20.000 repeatings they still wont get it.
So from now on I let silence do the talking.

Honeybee

Radio silence from you really does need to be maintained now otherwise you will get sucked back in. That is the way you will get peace.

You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. This is who they are and they will not change, they are incapable of change.

You are reasonable but you simply cannot reason with people as dysfunctional as your parents are. They do not and will not ever play by the "normal" rules of familial relations.

No contact is precisely that; no contact so no communication of any kind. The minimal amount of contact you have given your parents to date has worked against you. Do keep them away from your as yet unborn child going forward too. I hope the rest of your pregnancy works out for you

You are right Atilla

They can not change. It makes me sad when people say: oh I am sorry this is going on, hopefully you can reconcile soon!

They will never change their behaviour; my DF is well over 60 years old and DM is turning 60 this year. They are completely stuck in their abusive patterns.

I think you are right and making the mistake that I can expect the same behaviour from them as from reasonable people. They arent obviously and I was thinking: what if an ex boyfriend kept contacting me and sending me things trough people close to me? That would be considered stalking and I would tell him to f*ck off once or twice but completely ignore him after that.
My parents have just as little right to bother me as an ex would have and perhaps I should treat them as I would with said ex.

You don’t have to demand anything of your in laws. I find it interesting you use that term. Have you parents told you you are demanding?

Just explain to them that they were abusive to you growing up and now that you are not allowing it anymore they are trying to punish you by using them. Apologise that they are using them to do it and say that after much soul searching you are going no contact in order to protect your child, their grandchild, from their abuse.

Tell them the best way going forward, according to the experts , is to stop all communication and to not reply if they reach out. Just to throw it out. Explains that you have told your parents sending the parcel was unacceptable and not to do it agin. So hopefully they won’t, but throw just in case.

No need to demand. Just to explain. And if your dh gets it. He can talk to them about it more

@Aussiebean, thats a great idea indeed.
I just hope they will understand though. In their culture elders are highly respected no matter what shit they pull.

I used the word ‘demand’ because my DH actually wanted to impose on them how to behave to my parents. He said I dont even owe them an explanation. I feel that I do actually and explained DH that we are also doing it for our baby. God forbid it, but if something happened to DH and myself and my inlaws would take up care for our child, my parents surely would see that as a way to worm themselves into DC’s life and so I want my inlaws to know what kind of people they are for this reason as well.

Me and my dh have it in our wills that my mother is to have no say or access to our dc. My in laws will be the guardians and they have also been clearly told.

My mother in law took a while To understand. My dh explained a bit and when I told her a few things she had done my mil was shocked that a mother would do/say that to a child. So she at least respects it.

Change your email address and phone numbers if necessary. NC has to mean just that, but if they still have a means of contacting you chances are they won't stop. If they try to send messages via your inlaws, your aunt, don't send a response.

@ Aussiebean,

Funny you mention the will, as I was thinking to do the same thing. I still have to write an official one and I want to do this as soon as DC has arrived. I have also taken out a life insurance policy that I want him to inherit at 18 in case something happens to me and by writing my official will I also want to safeguard that for him.

I asked DH to invite his parents for dinner so we can explain what happened and apologise for my crazy family being a nuisance to them. DH says there might be a possibilty his mum would try to make an attempt to reconnect me and my parents without asking me, out of the kindness of her heart so we have to manage this very carefully. I do not want to air all my family’s dirty laundry to them but I think I should give them very clear examples though of why I made this decision.

@Drum2018

For now I want to keep my phone number and emailadress and I blocked them on my phone ( didnt work for my email) and I didnt reply to my DMs last email.

When she pressures others around me to deliver messages to me I will kindly explain to them that I will absolutely not respond to her under any circumstances and that she is using them to violate my boundaries.

DH has called his parents to say I am going to explain what is going on to them soon and to strongly request them in the meantime to NOT provide my DM with our home adress or details about the birth / hospital where me and DC will stay afterwards. The last thing I want is her to come over here and make a scene because I refuse to meet her. I am v much afraid she would be v capable of doing so

If they are the type of people who trust professionals, go Down that route.

Learn all the terms. use them and give them some information they can look at later.

Tell them that by trying to reconcile the two of you they are flying monkeys. Describe the wicked witch sending the nieve monkeys to do their bidding.

Talk about the methods and give examples. Make it clear that this is abusive manipulation that is so classic that they have terms for it and not just a mother who cares for her ungrateful daughter.

@Aussiebean

Yes indeed. Clearly you have taken the effort to educate yourself about narc abuse and how these dynamics work. I did the same and just like you I understand now how narc abusers are getting their way by manipulating others. Unfortunately, so many people who havent (consiously) experienced such a person in their life have no idea how this works and almost can not believe that actually people like this exist!

Your idea got me thinking, DH works for the local governement here and though not a psychologist, he is more then average experienced in dealing with others who have mental problems. He has said from the beginning that clearly DM has mental issues and is incapable of empathy and realising the impact of her behaviour on others.
He is such a supportive hubby and perhaps he can help me to convince my inlaws using some of his professional knowledge.
Thanks a lot for the idea

I just wanted to let you know you can make a will now to include provisions etc for her unborn children!

Mumblechum on here offers an amazing and inexpensive will writing service called Marlow Wills, you can find it on google

It's something you can do now and get out the way.

Although you can nominate PILs as guardians now it may be wise to find some younger people as well as stipulating that your parents are barred!

@RandomMess Thats a good one! I can write one myself for now and give it to DH to keep.

My 2 best friends know exactly what is going on.
Maybe it is not a very classy thing to have done but I send some of the abusive emails to my v best friend who has been a support to me on many occasions such as this week, so in any case, there is extra proof safeguarded with soneone I trust. Just in case my email gets hacked or something else happens.

For me it was such a relief to finally realise it wasn’t me. I wasn’t the defective one.

It was the stately homes thread that did it when someone wrote that their mother said to them ‘I love you but I don’t like you’ and woman after woman said ‘me too’ and I went ‘me too!’

Made me realise that there is a script, that the techniques are textbook and it has zero to do with me.

Was a lightbulb moment that was so freeing. I have done a lot of reading and research since which only cements what was happening and has enabled me to be less anxious and confident that I won’t do to my dc what was done to me.

I am so grateful I came across this in my early 30s. My heart bleeds for women who only become aware of the toxic play book in their 50s or 60s as by then the life long damage has been done. Abusive relationships, problems with their own children, crippling self esteem, mh issues etc.

So if I come across it here or in real life I like to tell people about its existence in the hope that they too have their own lightbulb moment with the hope of them coming out of the fog.

@Aussiebean what a beautiful way to describe that relieving moment. Must have felt like a ton of weight has fallen of your shoulders. I agree with you that it’s good to discover this better sooner then later. It saves you a lot of pain and can help you to start realising that as you stated so well ‘you are not the defective one’.

I have felt for a very long time in my life that I was oversensitive if I indicated boundaries to others, that I didn’t deserve to be loved and respected and felt particulary suspicious and/or guilty to accept kindness from people that I don’t know that well. I am still afraid to ask for help from others as there is the fear it will be used against me at a later moment in time.

My moment of ‘it’s not you, it’s them’ came when I told my therapist about an event from my childhood that particulary made me feel bad about myself. DM accusing me in tears of destroying her marriage (she literally used those words) when I was 8 or 9 years old and had done a trivial thing wrong for which DF punished me really badly, appearently they had a row about that. She repeated this scentence to me when I was 15 or 16 over a similar event and though it hurt me too at that time, I will never forget the guilt, shame and sadness I felt as a 9 year old.
My moment is related to that. Troughout my career, ‘reading’ people and their emotions has always been a huge part of my job. My therapist always concealed any emotion she had but I saw her reaction for 2 seconds after I told her this story. It was pure shock what I saw on her face and in her eyes. At that moment I realised that it wasnt me. It made me a huge advocate of therapy and sharing things with loved ones.
I think the problem is that we feel ashamed because we were taught in our childhood we were bad.