Manipulating dcs

[Walkingwounded]

Hoping someone with more experience than me can advise.

In process of splitting with narcissistic ex. He is very emotionally controlling, gaslighting, has me walking on eggshells around his moods.

Is a product of his own very damaging childhood & I don't think he actually knows he is doing it. Externally is the ideal 'family man'. V good with the kids & they adore him, they can't see the negatives (understandably, took me 3 years of counselling). They don't yet know we are splitting (still in family home).

Now I have finally found the courage to part, I can see the Dcs - 11 & 13 - being subject to the same manipulation. Have just had to travel away for work for a week. He's used that time to work on dd (13) particularly. Came back & they have lots of in-jokes, had had lots of 'treats' while together (ds away on a school trip), she's saying she just wants to be at home more with her dad...she seems very keen to please him & using a baby voice around him etc.

Dd lacks confidence & struggles a bit socially. We live very rurally (ex's choice) and he prefers the isolation whereas I worry about the effects on the kids (have always worked v hard to ensure they do see friends etc). Dd seems to be talking about 'home' a lot, how it's the best place to be, how much she loves it etc.

When I write it down here, it all seems so harmless & a good thing that they are close & that dd loves 'home'.
But I have lived with ex long enough to see the signs. It is all so very subtle & hard to pin down.

Going forward, because ex's house comes with the job, I will have to move out. Am so afraid that he will manipulate dcs - whether knowingly it or not - into not wanting to spend time with me in my 'new' home, since 'being at home with dad' is preferable. And at 11 & 13 surely they can choose?

Has anyone been through similar? Am trying not to 'compete' with exh for dd attention, just to step back, be loving & there if she needs me. Am hoping that once I am in own space, she will be less vulnerable to the manipulation.

But is that right? Or should I be doing it differently? I have on way of reasoning w exh, he would just erupt with rage. Also had an awful childhood myself (& no family support) so no guidance on how to proceed.

Thanks.

Bumping for someone more knowledgeable than me. I suspect that all you can do is stay consistent and be the place of safety for when he no longer has the energy to be a Disney dad again.

Aw Thankyou....Am really hoping for some advice as have no idea how to navigate this.

I think you need to pin down exactly what he’s doing. I do nt want to be rude but it’s a bit vague, why should nt your daughter and father have in jokes, why should nt he buy her treats ?

I see it. He's subtly sowing the seeds with your DC to ensure he gets what he wants, or, more likely, deny you of something to cause you pain. I second just being consistent. My bf exH was and is just like this.

Hi OP I need to go to bed so am being brief, but I wanted to say I know what you mean and I know EXACTLY how you try to explain it and you can't, it all sounds like nothing.

I also understand about having no family support and a dysfunctional background. In my case that contributed to me tolerating ex as long as I did, possibly to me choosing him in the first place.

I found this website very helpful: Out of the fog

I'm separated now and ex sees the DC but they are wise to his ways. If you love them, listen to them, be there for them just as you describe, they will understand the difference between that and what ex is like. Even if it takes a while for the dust to settle. Wishing you loads of courage and good luck (((hug)))

Thankyou both for understanding. Yes It is so very hard to explain. He is definitely sowing the seeds to alienate the DCs from me - I can see it happening.

Thanks for the website address. Will look and will try to stay consistent for the dcs.

I understand what you mean. You just have to move out and find a place that is you. Start being you and not just facilitating what he wants, What is there that you do with your DD that he can’t/won’t. Make her feel special. Afternoon tea out just the girls. Swimming. Make up shopping. Girlie cinema trips. Buy a puppy. Do you see what I mean? This really should be easy for you. Mum and daughter is the strongest bond. Become BFFs by doing the girls stuff. Go shopping for a day round a market and buy friendship bracelets. If she struggles socially then the two of you can get close. He can’t give her the girly gossip/coffee in a cafe/window shopping relationship that you can. What is she into? Time to play him at his own game. When you move, she gets to pick colours of her room. Make it gorgeous. Lots of beanbags and a lava lamp and posters and a CD player. Take the things your ex doesn’t like (does he like going to gigs like little mix with her?) and make them your things. You are leaving him for a reason so start to make your life about you.

Totally get what you mean OP. He's been sowing the seeds.

The thing is, would he cope with children at home without you there full time?

How mature is your 13 year old? Are you able to have discussions about school and timetables and her extra curricular activities? Which adult deals with all those?

He sounds like he's starting the Disney Dad persona already.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge and advice will be along soon.

Yes I know this too. Am a year down the line and it's still going on to some extent but my DC are starting to see through it. It is HARD though.

I've realised that my ex is just world class at manipulation. I feel like I'm playing some kind of chess game and hes 5 steps ahead of me at all times. The best thing I've found to do is not play. I interact with ex as little as poss. I stick to boundaries with the kids so respond robustly to "dad says he can't do xyz because he is putting us first". I hate it though.

The saddest thing is I had hoped me and ex h would eventually be able to be friends but hes so manipulative that's not going to happen and now I feel like I was married to a mirage for 20 years. I'm heartbroken

I found this article very interesting.
lifelessons.co/personal-development/covertpassiveaggressivenarcissist/

Thank you both. Yes I can try to do more girly things with dad - she would definitely appreciate this. To make it happen though, I will have to get Exh to spend time alone with ds which may not be easy - ds is a less compliant character than dd, so he and dh are not so close.

But can definitely try.

MrsMozart: yes he copes fine w the kids when I away - I have to regularly travel for work. Though there is a bit of passive aggressive stuff about not wanting to schlep the kids round their activities ( ‘you don’t want to go to gymnastics tonight do you ds? We’ll just have a quiet evening at home shall we?’ )

Discussions on school, activities etc are mainly with me since I tend to organise it & have always fought for the kids to do after school stuff.

Really feel for you Quentinwinters, it is exactly the same.

now I feel like I was married to a mirage for 20 years

OMG Quentin, that's it exactly! Friends have sometimes asked if I still love ex. I don't even the tiniest shred of love for him, because the person I loved was never there - he just constructed it to get my attention and approval, and once I really saw what was going on, pouf the love was gone.

OP I agree with doing nice activities with DD, but I'd caution against being her "friend" as such - she needs a mum, a solid parent she can rely on who isn't a mirage, who has clear boundaries and really listens and has her back. Fun stuff is fine as long as you give her that too, but you don't want to compete with ex at being "fun parent" IYSWIM.

Also you can involve your DS too, there is stuff you can all do together.

My exh tried manipulation. Even told my dc I was a prostitute!
When they got to 12 +14 they went nc..
With him.
They actually both asked to come live with me full time as df wasn't a proper parent. They wanted rules and boundaries!!
Is your exh really fit to manage teenage hormones? Especially dd's?!
Ds 17 hasn't seen him for 3 years except at dgps funerals.
They haven't even been to his new house except to get collected in the hearse..
Being a damn good dm is better than a Disney Dad op. .
I never tried to outdo exh simply because I couldn't afford to - dc still love me!
Stay strong op.

Your ex is a knob to underestimate your relationship with your dc ime.

I'm trying to work extra hard on figuring out why he gets to me the way he does and closing those doors. My mum said the other day "he has no way to control you anymore" and it made me realise that I'm choosing to let him get to me. So I'm trying to work out why and how to move on from that.
But he just says the most outrageous things in an oh-so-reasonable way. So for example the other day he tried to make me feel unreasonable for saying I thought he might be in a relationship with this woman who stays in the marital home a lot. Apparently she's married and he wouldn't chase married women.
Yet he spent many many years of our marriage paying for online sex shows from webcam sex workers, which he knew I regard as infidelity. I am sure some of those women are married.
So I just find the double standards incredible, and confusing. I used to try to argue but it's pointless. So now I try to rationally think "he lies all the time to get to you, he's lying now"

It is exhausting though

This thread is useful
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3550467-A-really-interesting-article-for-anyone-experiencing-narcisstic-behaviour-in-their-lives?pg=1&order=

Thankyou all.

Just had a really unbearable day. DD all over exh, Calling him 'dada'. Clinging to his arm. Being pretty dismissive of me & my efforts to be close to her. Exh milking it, arms round her etc.

Was so unbearable had to leave the house for some space - which of course is exactly what exh wants. Now he can be super dad.

Can't cope with this - my own kids being divided from me.

He won't be 'super dad' when he's tired / had enough / wants some down time / gets angry, then he's going to be selfish dad and your DD will start to understand.

You really have to play the long game. My teenager said to me only the other week "i think dad's always in competition with you". I thought yup that's so true. Ex and I have been divorced 6 years now. At the start of the breakup I would have denied it, now I just smile and say yes, what a shame, no need for that. My teenager knows the truth - they still want to see their dad and benefit from the fancy gadgets, but they KNOW. They know they are being manipulated. They may never break away totally. But by being there and being consistent I think we will keep our children for lifetime.

But whilst the family courts are so incompetent they do not recognise this type of abuse, you really will stand no chance trying to raise it.

Thank you both for responding. I had an awful childhood and am not at all close to my mother. Being close to dd is desperately important to me.

Am finding her withdrawal so frightening and am very fearful that it will continue and dh will successfully divide us.

Do I raise it with her? Or leave it alone and just hope she comes back?

She wouldn't be acting like that if she wasn't desperately insecure. She's grabbing his attention while she can, and reverting to childish behaviour to try and keep it. He will NOT be able to keep this up, there's no way, and she knows it.

If I were you, I wouldn't raise it directly with her. For one thing, the more needy people are, the more others can reject them; she might instinctively defend him and dig in deeper if she "hears" criticism, or use your feelings to hurt you and to try and bond more with him.

For another (and I mean this as kindly as possible) your feelings right now and the issues you're projecting from your own childhood aren't her responsibility. Don't inadvertently do something as damaging as he's doing by accidentally pushing them on to her.

Can you talk to a counsellor or therapist at all?

When ds was allowed total free reign at exh's - think drink +drugs at 14- I backed away. Left them to it tbh as my mh was suffering and ds would not communicate at all. Reported a wild party to the police and exh talked his way out of the drugs thing. Rang Ss when he had a sex offender upstairs with my dc. Talked his way out of it. I was lying. Dc were lying . It never happened. It bloody did.
A year later ds went nc with exh of his own accord. Ime the more you nag the less you will see your dd.
Take good care of youself op. You need to keep well. I was 7stone when was 9 1/2.

Thank you both. It’s so hard to bear.

You are right Justju that I must not push my own issues onto dd. Yes I can see my counsellor next week, which will help.

Ok - thanks so much for the advice. Will try to stay neutral and calm for the moment, and just swallow it when I see dd and exh acting like a newly engaged couple.

You are so right also walkamile about needing to take care of ourselves. It’s going to take all I have to handle this - even more than 15 years of rough-ish emotional abuse.