Opinions please. Is this financial abuse?

[Atleastihavethecat]

For background, DP and I have semi combined/semi separate finances. He works part time, and I have my own business. He has a rough idea of my finances, but isn't involved in that side of things as his ex constantly asks how much money I make. We don't want him to let anything slip to her, so he stays out of the details.

His ex was abusive, which is something he's had a hard time accepting and dealing with. She was financially abusive, she'd move his money from his account to hers on payday, then give him an allowance. She wouldn't pay their bills, and they were asked to leave 3 properties for non payment of rent. He's over anxious about bills, and can't sleep properly until the bills are paid.

We had a bill come in a week ago that was a bit bigger than expected. Not giant, just bigger than I'd assumed it would be. I paid it. And honestly, thought nothing more about it.

Anyway, an ad came up on his youtube about financial abuse, and he came to talk to me about it. But he still didn't seem to understand that the ad was describing his experience. There's an SS background here too, so as the social worker suggested, I referenced the ad back to his experience. He said 'yes, or like paying bills and not telling your partner'.

So, while I'm pretty sure it isn't financial abuse, opinions?

Your intention was to shield him from unnecessary stress. His interpretation of the act is that it demonstrates someone who is controlling. You made decisions for him that were his to make. Hid things from him that he is entitled to know. And, made assumptions about his mental health.

It’s not about the size of the bill, it’s about the cover up.

That isn't financial abuse, that's you paying a joint bill when it came in. Presumably he has access to any records he wishes to see? Has access to bank accounts, can see money going out, can spend money himself?

He sounds controlling. Why didn't he pay the bills in that relationship with the "financially irresponsible" ex? Didn't they have enough money to pay the rent? Why was that 100% her fault? It sounds like he's making you very responsible for both his happiness and his bills.

This strikes me as much more complex than what you've told us. Why are social services involved? Do you know about his finances?

@PicsInRed Are you reading a different post to the rest of us? His ex was financially abusive, he couldn't pay bills himself because she took all his money off him.

No, that’s not financial abuse. Financial abuse is when you deprive the other person of the means to pay or the reassurance that they will be provided for like his ex wife did. If you prevented him from having money/limited how much he could have and refused to discuss finances that would be abusive. You aren’t restricting his ongoings, you just neglected to mention this one bill but you paid it which I presume you usually do so there’s no reason to think you were depriving him of reassurance.

Financial abuse is two pronged:

1. Limiting financial independence
2. Using this to cause stress or prevent the person from spending money they need to spend eg leaving bills unpaid or not having a way that they can meet necessary payments (e.g no access to savings)

My dh and I both pay bills as they come in, both from our joint account and our pets accounts. Unless there was unexpectedly not enough money in an account to cover the bill, it wouldn’t really even occur to us to discuss it.

It’s not financial abuse, but it does sound like he has some weird anxieties and hang ups around money and it projecting his situation with his ex on you (which maybe wasn’t as much about her being financially abusive as you thought?).

*personal accounts - we don’t even have any pets, but they definitely wouldn’t have bank accounts if we did!

So is he worried that the bill came in and he didn't know that it was paid?
That the bill was higher than expected so he was worried about that?
That he didn't know anything about it and was still expecting the bill to arrive, and worried because of that?
Or nothing about the bill in question, but a theoretical conversation about the ad and what had happened in the past?

I'm not trying to be pedantic, and you don't need to answer those questions, but I'm wondering what HIS worries are that lead to your worries.

As it strikes me, from the information in your OP, that there could be a number of different things going on.
Mostly, what I am trying to say, is that you need to communicate effectively with each other.

So you know what he's worried about, and he knows there is nothing to worry about.

It certainly doesn't strike me as any kind of abuse, financial or otherwise, but a possible upset caused by misunderstanding between you both.

@PicsInRedAre you reading a different post to the rest of us? His ex was financially abusive, he couldn't pay bills himself because she took all his money off him

Was she?

She was financially abusive, she'd move his money from his account to hers on payday, then give him an allowance. She wouldn't pay their bills, and they were asked to leave 3 properties for non payment of rent.

Why wasn't he holding on to his own money and paying rent directly after the 1st eviction. There's more to that story than he's letting on.

All OP did was pay a joint bill when it arrived, having noted that it was a bit higher than normal. I get the feeling that the partner didnt like that she didnt "run it by him" first, that she was showing a little too much independent thought.
She literally paid a joint bill. There's no abuse from OP (and probably wasn't any from the ex).

Huh? Isn't it normal to just pay a bill if it's a bit hard their and you can afford it? Why would you need to discuss it? Doesn't he want them paid!?

Why wasn't he holding on to his own money and paying rent directly after the 1st eviction.

Because a financially abusive partner knows how to access your bank and move your money without asking you first? E.g. they add their fingerprint recognition to your mobile banking app etc or guilt you into giving them a code.

He wasn't paying the rent because she was moving all the money out of his account. Alerts for that account went to her phone and email, so when he changed the passwords, she just changed them back again. She continued this for three months after they separated until he got a new account.

She was spending the money on her friends and family, gifts, holidays for her and her friends, until their 1st DC was born and then she spent a lot of it on the DC instead of rent and bills. Initially this made some sense to me, but babies don't really need 3 prams, a cot, a bed, a moses basket, a travel cot and a crib in the same house.

As for the evictions, she would tell him the night before they had to leave. They would move in with her parents until they found somewhere else. He didn't leave her then because 'nobody else would want him'.

SS are involved because of her behaviour, and emotional abuse of their DC. But I'll agree that there's more to the story than I've got from him because he minimises a lot of what she has done and much of her current behaviour to him. SW is concerned that she's continuing to abuse him, and is using their DC to do so. It's very messy, and stressful. They're also concerned that he finds it impossible to 'stand up to her'. She makes all the decisions, ignores anything he says, and he can't make his points to her adequately. If it's in person she just talks over him, until he stops trying. All in person conversations are now with a SW present to try to stop this.

The bill in question comes out of my account, (some bills come out of his, some come out of mine) so he'd transferred what we had thought would be half. Bill was bigger than what we thought, but paying it wouldn't have and didn't leave me struggling. Also, it's a household bill, but I'll be able to include part of it in my business expenses, so I just took a little extra from my business account to cover it.

I'm guessing, because he's not always clear or able to express what worries him, but I think it was that the bill was bigger than expected, and what would we have done if I hadn't been able to cover it. Our finances weren't always as stable as they are now, and if a bill had to be put off for a week, he wouldn't sleep properly until it was paid.

I know about his finances, and he has a rough idea about mine. He knows roughly how much I take from the business but he doesn't know the financial ins and outs of the business, ifyswim. He's very anxious around her, and tends to babble when talking to her, so he gives her more of our personal information than he should.

And she has become quite obsessed in finding out about the financial ins and outs. Her solicitor has asked the court to comply me to release my information to her three times as she's 'worried about financial stresses affecting his ability to look after the DC and needs to know that atleastIhavethecat can cover the expenses'. Obviously the court said no.

How much of her behaviour have you actually seen first hand? Or is it related to you by him?

Re: court, are you talking about full financial disclosure for divorce? That would normally potentially involve inclusion of a partner's financial status, particularly if children are involved?

It’s not financial abuse, but you’re possibly infantilising him. If he was cut out of financial information before, continuing to do that is likely to make him anxious - even if it is, to most people, a really minor non-event. He may need transparency.

As to needing a SW present so he doesn’t babble about your income? Why is he even having “in person” conversations with her? I get that they have children so there will be contact - but that can be via text, surely? A SW can’t be present for any ad hoc time when she speaks to him. It’s an odd situation. Has he applied for residency of the children, given that SW are backing him that she is emotionally abusing them?

From her point of view, the kids live with her, he owes maintenance, he’s only working part time... I’d be asking my solicitor too if I could consider your income!

I’m not minimising abuse - just saying that just because someone is wrong in many things, doesn’t make them wrong in all things.

They were texting, then she decided text wasn't reliable, so they tried email. She didn't like email as she had to check her emails 'all the time'. She wanted in person conversations in a bar, which he tried for a few conversations before SS involvement. It's gone back to text, and SW arranges and is present during any in person conversations so the ex doesn't talk over him, and ignore him. She would basically shout him down until he stopped talking and then do whatever she wanted to do in the first place.

He's so nervous and anxious around her that he just speaks without thinking. She could be saying that the DC have an activity that costs X amount, and he'll just start talking about our bills, how much they are, when they're due, and when he'll transfer his contribution to the activity.

The court is for access. Her reasoning was that if we have financial problems he wouldn't be able to look after their DC properly because he'd be stressed, so she wanted to see how my income was. Otherwise she couldn't support contact with someone who was stressed about money.

I haven't seen the abuse during their relationship as I wasn't there. I've seen the results of that, and honestly, nothing she has done, said or submitted to court gives me any reason to doubt him. I have seen her current behaviours towards him, and all of the court documents.

Currently SS are working to change the situation while keeping the DC living with the ex. They are also assessing us for residency if the DC are removed from her care.

And yes, I saw it as a non issue. Bill came in, more than expected, it wasn't going to affect me to pay so I paid it.

We get bills in the post, quite often addressed to us jointly. Sometimes DH will just pay a bill - he wouldn't even think of discussing it with me first, likewise if I paid one, I wouldn't bother telling him either.

But then neither of us has a history of a previous partner causing financial problems.

You just paid a bill, and there was no need for you to talk to him about it beforehand. Perfectly normal. No way is that financially abusive.

But now you know how he feels about such things, perhaps next time it might be worth mentioning it.

Have you thought about a joint account for household bills, with both of you transferring money from your sole accounts. It might help him to see there are no secrets and he can see what is happening with joint bills

Would it be too much of a simplification to say he's incredibly anxious, she wants a straightforward discussion of child/financial arrangements, but he then wanders off on a tangent about his bills, how broke he is and that can't afford to contribute? Does he send her a lot of emails?

Somewhat like the anxiety and accusation of abuse you have seen when you simply paid a bill?

So she's concerned about your finances in relation to his mental health re: application for the kids to spend more time with him? It doesn't sound like SS are in a hurry to remove the kids from her. It does sound, though, that they have concerns about his anxiety and are assessing whether he is fit to have more time with the kids?

I do think you need to cast a critical eye over his version, OP.

This guy has you very seriously wondering if YOU are abusive simply because you paid a joint bill without clearing it with him first.

That sounds less like you are controlling and more like he is. Think very carefully, if he's a headworker, you won't have much longer to get a handle on it before the sands have shifted too much beneath your feet to think straight anymore. Good luck.

CM is sort of where it becomes sort of complicated. We have separate bank accounts, and some bills are in his name, some are in mine, but all expenses are household expenses. His CM was just another household expense, so we didn't change it when he went PT.

I don't think she really wants more money as such. She just wants to cause stress.

He is incredibly anxious around her. There's a lot of legal history in this as well. But no, it's not quite that straightforward. She knows he's anxious and she uses it to get information from him.

He only sends relevant emails, and mostly in response to her emails/texts. A lot of stuff she sends isn't relevant, so we ignore that. She sends a lot of emails/texts/phone calls when they're with us, but then won't answer a relevant question for days, if at all.

He's never not contributed, so she has no reason to think we have financial problems. Even if she did, she has no right to access to my finances.

SS are assessing if he could have them FT. If a situation arose where she continued her emotional abuse of the DC, would his anxiety around her mean that he wouldn't be able to step in when they need him to is one of the biggest questions. They don't want to remove them, they want her behaviour to change so everyone can work together.

I've, fortunately, never been a victim of domestic abuse, but I can't imagine it's easy to come to terms with or easy to move on from.

I'm not sure how a joint account would work for the bills that I can include as a business expense?

He's not paying enough CM and only works part time. Sounds fishy to me OP. Do you rent? What does he contribute?