Sex...

[HouseFullOfBunnies]

I have a real issue with sex in relationships. Basically, my associations/connections with sex/emotions/relationships is completely fucked up. I can't even imagine how it is to feel differently or what other people experience.

I'm 45. I met a man around 6 months ago and, for the first time in my life, I have the 'amazing connection' that people talk about mentally and emotionally. I think I could fall in love with him. I don't feel like I've already got one foot out of the door. When I imagine my future, I can see him in it and I want him to be in it. If he ended it tomorrow, I would be fine; it's more that I am prepared to see another person in my future whereas, in the past, I never have.

But sex is a problem. Everything else is perfect. Utterly perfect. But for the sex. And it's my problem - not his.

He says all the right things but what I hear is wrong and I feel utterly inadequate because he's had good, functional romantic/sexual relationships previously and I can't offer that.

He tells me that, to him, I'm beautiful. I hear - You're fat, ugly, unattractive and undesireable.

I've spoken to him a (very) little bit about my relationship/sexual history (which isn't great). He's happy to take things at my pace; if there's anything I want to try, to let him know; he won't ever pressure me (and he hasn't); sex isn't the be all and end all of a relationship - I hear - yes, you're inadequate and shit.

I can't try anything. What if it doesn't work? What if I just don't turn him on or can't 'finish what I've started'? What if he is internally laughing/cringing at me? I know he'll be silently comparing me to his exes. Even just thinking about it, I can feel the tension/closed off-ness rising.

I know what has caused/triggered this in me. I hate it. I've had counselling but it hasn't made any difference. I just feel broken.

OP, I saw this yesterday and was surprised no one commented but it's been on my mind.

I feel for you OP, especially in your last sentence, I feel so broken. Forgive me but it seems to me as if this post isn;t really about sex, it's about something much deeper than that. You hint at knowing why you are the way you are but you do not say, could you tell us please?

I can give out all kinds of tips about sex but I sense this isn't what it's about. I think until you bring out whatever trauma it is you are experiencing, it will only ever be papering over the cracks if you see what I mean?

Hope you are ok?

Hi Thank you for replying.

I know the answer is that I need counselling of some sort but I can't afford it at the moment, and it hasn't helped previously, so I keep hoping that I will hear or read something that helps me.

I have chronically low self esteem as the result of an abusive childhood (and beyond) that has meant I've always made poor relationship choices - now I understand more about it I can see that they were my choices and not inevitable because I was just shit and worthless. I've done a lot of work on myself through talking with friends and journalling etc using CBT strategies and various other techniques - I've essentially mentored myself into a much better place. The work I've done on myself has been far more effective than any of the paid counselling I've had.

But sex is one area where it seems to manifest still. It's like all my inadequacies, insecurities and fear just congregate in that area.

I've employed a bit of a 'fake it till you make it' strategy and it seems to have worked quite well but I can feel myself shutting down; I feel incredibly tense and self conscious and I just can't relax.

I don't want to walk away from this relationship if I can help it. It's not what I want and I don't think he'd want it either.

I just don't know what to do.

Do you have a desire to have sex, but then feel self-conscious, as though you can't go there because you're inadequate, etc. Or does the way you feel about yourself mean that you don't really feel a physical desire with him at all?

Well done for coming back OP.

OK, it's unclear by your messages if you have had sex or not? If you haven't, six months is quite some time to be seeing someone without it becoming physical.

From your first post it looks as if you have become very goal orientated, like orgasm is THE thing. I don't think it is and in fact I'd go one step further and suggest for now put the very act itself out of your mind. Focus on getting close, naked, touching etc

I do think though that you do need to talk this through with your partner.

I agree with @renarde

It's unclear if you've had sex, and but either way, I think that actual sex should be put to one side for the moment, so you can focus on physical intimacy without an "end goal".

I think you need to explain your concerns to your partner, even if you give him a watered-down version. Perhaps ask if he'd be willing to be naked whilst you're clothed. Perhaps watch him masterbate? It would be a good way of you seeing what he likes without feeling like you're being judged, and it would show that he is willing to make himself vulnerable to you, and that you, in turn, can be with him.

Perhaps massages, where you learn each others bodies, but don't have orgasm as the target point? Or even just sexual conversations; discussing fantasies, or reading erotica together?

Yep. I've had sex. I have 2 children.

Ok.

Between 19 and 21, I was largely single and had unsatisfactory, drunken sex with strangers/people I didn't know very well. Developed no technique, no idea of what I liked and it was only ever roll on/roll off sex. The 'relationships' I did have were largely sexless partly through a lack of experience on my part; fear of being more sexually confident; complete intimidation; not knowing what to do or them not really being interested. I didn't expect relationships or love and meaningless ONSs at least gave the illusion of closeness and physical contact. I rejected anyone I had sex with immediately and shut down to them.

At 20, I was raped, which didn't help and forged a complete disconnect in me between sex and love. As a result of the rape, I've never been able to have sex in positions where I couldn't see my partner at all times.

21 - 23: I had a, partly LD, relationship with someone in which sex didn't really come up all that often. When we did, it was often unsatisfying; short lived; largely roll on/roll off. I didn't like being on top because I felt too visible and felt uncomfortable being in 'control'. I felt intimidated by his previous experiences; inadequate compared to his exes and fearful of the whole thing.

23 - 25: single and entirely celibate.

25 - 37: I was with a man who was a virgin when we met. He had some 'funny ideas' when it came to women and sex and told me early on that I was too good for sex. We did have sex initially but I shut off from him around a year in when I realised he just didn't find me sexually attractive at all. Ultimately, it happened a handful of times; always missionary. Our relationship was almost entirely sexless for around 10 years.

37 - 42: series of ONS and dull sex wise 'romantic' relationships. Roll on/off sex; porn induced ED; lack of interest/effort on their part; complete absence of confidence/knowledge/skill/technique on mine... I ended all of them. I had huge anxiety around relationships and sex the whole time. I never felt relaxed, comfortable or safe - always on edge.

42 - 43: I met a man who was unsuitable in the long term for many reasons but, for the first time in my life, I had 'amazing sex'. It wasn't technically brilliant, or hugely adventurous, but I felt comfortable, safe and confident to try things with him. Unfortunately, part of what made him unsuitable for the long term is what also made me feel more confident and comfortable. We had fun with sex. Played around, tried things out. He was a fair bit younger than me and his sex/relationship history wasn't dissimilar to mine so we were almost like teenagers trying things out together for the first time. I didn't feel inadequate or unattractive once - quite the opposite in fact. He made me feel beautiful and sexy and I know that he gained confidence too.

I kind of hoped that confidence would last but it hasn't.

I actually have quite a high sex drive and would do it every day if I could. It's not that I don't desire my boyfriend but sex is very 'functional'.

I think I have become too focused on the orgasm goal because then it's over and done with I have some sensory issues too and can find that I just become completely overloaded and shut down because of that too.

And not helped by the fact that I currently feel fat and unattractive generally. I just don't ever feel 'sexy' - because I'm not.

I know I need to talk it through with him but I have no idea where to even start really.

Or even just sexual conversations; discussing fantasies, or reading erotica together?

I've never been able to do this with someone I'm in a relationship with and I'm not sure it's something he'd want to do from things he's said.

Perhaps watch him masterbate? It would be a good way of you seeing what he likes without feeling like you're being judged, and it would show that he is willing to make himself vulnerable to you, and that you, in turn, can be with him.

We've done this.

I have tried to talk about it with him and he has been lovely. But I have still found that I've just shut down. He's suggested massage etc but I feel too self conscious

Who did you have the kids with? Mr Virgin?

Yes. Aided by wine. There's a few years between them too...

The last time he and I had sex, he told me afterwards that it had made him feel dirty and we never did it again.

Is it just sex, or is it also sex acts?

Personally I’m not particularly comfortable having sex with someone unless I really trust them and we have been together for quite a while, as a result I have only had sex with one person, which I’m comfortable about.

I am however comfortable doing other things, are you similar, or are you experiencing anxieties around anything sexual?

Have you received any therapy regarding your sexual assault?

It's anything sexual. If anything, PIV is actually the easiest. I don't find it as 'intimate' as other acts. I quite like giving oral but I do worry about it being good enough. I think I find it easier if I can talk about it but I find that hard in a relationship because it just feels like a comparison with exes.

No, I've not had anything. Tbh, I'd blocked it out. Obviously hadn't forgotten, but it was only very recently that it hit me that that might have had something to do with how I feel. It was over 20 years ago now.

I think I just feel like a big, unattractive lump. I'm just really conscious that I don't look particularly appealing; I don't feel sexy; I feel like a big, awkward lump. I don't like not being able to see my partner; I don't like being viewed from awkward angles...

Yet, in my head, I feel like I'd give pretty much anything a go once. But when I imagine trying anything or doing anything, I just have a sudden jolt of "what on earth do you think you are doing?" and can see the man thinking, "love, you're just not all that" or "when X did that, it was so much better" and it shuts everything down.

You're obviously not a "big, awkward lump"- the chap from 42-43 definitely didn't think so! And it sounds as if Mr Present doesn't think so either, he sounds as though he really likes you, as he seems willing to work on this at your pace.

You've been through a lot, and it has made you intensely self-critical, which is very hard to overcome. Have you heard of Grounding? When you are having negative thoughts (or panic/anxiety for some people) think of things you can sense not things you're thinking in your head. So:
5 things you can see,
4 things you can hear,
3 things you can smell,
2 things you can touch/feel
1 thing you can taste

It doesn't have to be the senses in that particular order, btw, whatever works for the environment you're in!

This can help break the cycle of negative thoughts, and hopefully change your habit of thinking so little of yourself.
You sound like a very strong woman, to have come through all those difficult times. You also sound very self-aware, and in tune with what you want- which is more than most people can say!

Try to start saying (in your head if you can't do it aloud, at least to start with) positive things to yourself each day, several times a day if you can manage it. "Bunnies, you're a special person", "Bunnies, you're lovely", "Bunnies, you bring happiness", "Bunnies, you're a good person".
It will feel ridiculous at first, and you won't believe yourself, but it really is a habit, and you need to hear those nice things said about you. After a while, you'll disbelieve them less. After some time, you'll begin to think the nice things Mr Present says about you might be true. Hopefully, you'll start to believe him.

Can you encapsulate how it was that Mr 42-43 made you feel? Because that might be the key to getting that ease and comfort in your own body back for you.

Good luck- it sounds as though Mr Present could be very good for you, you just need to realise that you genuinely deserve that happiness. Because you do

Goodness OP, what a time you have had! It especially makes me very VERY cross that a man told you after sex that it made him feel dirty. What. A. Cock.

The other thing I want to pick up on is your rape. That's a big deal. Im guessing that counselling has not worked? I do think by what you have described there is an underlying trauma here.

I also agree with @PhilODox that Mr Present sounds good for you and no, you're not unattractive. The key point though is that you are self-sabotaging - I get why you are doing this but you've become a bit lost in the process. Understandably.

I also totally get that in certain positions you feel awkward or unattractive. Woman on top whilst it's good for our stimulation does rather make us feel exposed. I do enjoy it but it's not my favourite if I'm being brutal. I love the feeling of the man being on top and in control. It resonates with the submissive side of me and I get off on that too. Being pinned down, unable to move.

I'm a deviant. I'm kinky as fuck and hedonistic to the hills. Us kinksters have something called 'the limits list'. I have one - it runs to 200 lines in excel. It's divided into hard limit, soft limit and anything goes. I suggest that you do the same. What will you never do, maybe do but not quite now and things you are comfortable with.

Compile it then sit down with Mr P and over a few drinks just have a very light chat about it. How does that sound?

Phil

I think he does really like me but, you're right, I am intensely self critical.

I have heard of that 'grounding' strategy. I can give it a go but it's not a generalised anxiety that I have and the reality of the things I am worried about will still be there. I will give it a go though. If it just breaks the chain of thought then that might help.

One of the big things I have is that 20 years ago, I used to feel huge and fantasise about cutting huge chunks of myself off to make myself smaller. The sad thing is that those chunks didn't really exist in those days but they do now so, whilst I can look back at 23 year old me and see that I was wrong, 45 year old me is exactly who 23 year old me thought she was. I feel heavy and cumbersome.

Things worked with Mr 42-43 because I knew I wasn't in anyone's shadow or being compared to anyone from the past. I was able to just be me without fear of anything else. We'd both had shit relationship experiences; we'd both had dysfunctional and abusive upbringings. I felt that we were on a level playing field. I still felt 'huge and cumbersome' with him but I genuinely believed that he didn't care and I wasn't emotionally invested in it - I knew it was never going to be anything long term. the potential for Mr Present to be long term is part of the problem, I think.

I feel like Mr Present is way out of my league, tbh. He feels like exactly the person I want to be with but I feel like he is underselling himself by being with me. He could do so much better.

Renarde

I've never had counselling for the rape. It took me a long time to process that that is what it was because I knew him - we weren't friends, but I knew his name and he wasn't a stranger to me. That, along with the messages I'd received about myself/relationships/sex/love from my upbringing just completely misled my thinking on the whole thing tbh.

I think your 'lost in the process' assessment is very valid. I think that's exactly how I feel.

I feel that I have to be sexually available at all times; I feel that the only aspect of me that is of any value is how sexually attractive/satisfying I can be to a man. I take any 'lack' on their part as a criticism. Not in the mood? I'm not good enough. Taking too long? I'm not good enough. Spot of ED? I'm not good enough. Want to try something different? Arghhh!!! I'm so hyper aware of anything that might suggest a lack of attraction/interest/me not being good enough on their part but I'm not able to read what is working at all. Or even know where to start.

I really like your idea of the limits list. Are your things specific or quite general? As a rough starting point, I would say that I can think of things that would go on the never list; lots of things that would go on the maybe but not quite yet list and very little on the things I'm comfortable with now list

Having a light chat about it sounds good. I think I'd need him to understand just how deep an issue this is for me though and that it isn't really going to be a quick fix - one Saturday evening and a bottle of red isn't going to sort it. Plus, if there were things on my Never list that were on his Comfortable list, then I'd just end it. I wouldn't want him to feel that he was missing out by being with me. And I'd rather not face that just yet.

Well, not the only aspect of me but it's the aspect that trumps all others.

Oh bless you OP! I can clearly see that you do overthink things. I am not criticising that because then I would be a monumental hypocrite because I do it to.

I find it intresting and significant that you feel a pressure to be sexually attractive at all times. I may now be way of the mark but I do wonder if your parents kept on reinforcing the message that girls are pretty and must always be pretty. And there is the only function.

Limits list - glad you like it :-D

Because I am a kinkster I am VERY specific about certain acts; have to be. The list however is yours, so maybe, I dunno, anal is hard limit but receiving oral sex is always on. Being tied up is a maybe but PIV is cool. It's up to you and it is your body. I will caution you on one point though because your last sentence bothered me.

Plus, if there were things on my Never list that were on his Comfortable list, then I'd just end it.

Don't. This is all part of the negotiation that must happen between partners. For example, I'm with a 'nilla now. Oh he's deviant as fuck and a hedonist but he's not interested in hard kink at all. We have had many, many late night talks about this - I'll share our dynamic if it suits?

When I first met him he was undoubtedly attracted to my openness about sex but not necessarily the kink side. Fair enough. When in bed however, he is not a Dom but he is what we call a Top. In fact, he has no desire to Dom me and I have no desire to let him even though I am a submissive. This is where it gets tricky. We had a eight month or so break. By the time he came around again, I was now a Dominant. (I had too many bad experiences as a sub). He is not allowed to use floggers etc on me but he will let me do that to him. It's complex.

The point though is that we talk endlessly about our 'thing' - we communicate. It's fun too, to be that open with another person. There are things I want, anal for example which he is not as keen on. So can I live without that? Of course because he's giving me so many other things. This is why it's fine and utterly normal for there to be a mismatch on the limits list. As long as it is understood, agreed upon and respected by both parties, you will be fine. Trust me.

Please do PM me if you need to.

And because you are being so hard on yourself.

Hm... thank you for your reply!

I wouldn't take it as a criticism - I know I overthink!

Yes, I was very much brought up with the belief that a woman's worth lies solely in her sexual attractiveness to men and that it was important to be sexually available at all times - after all, they'd just take it anyway. And that was to be expected too. My mother criticised me once (during a conversation that I later realised was not really appropriate) because I said that I usually slept naked and that I didn't always have sex. She felt that was unfair, wrong and inappropriate of me. I was constantly maligned for not being pretty enough or having the 'right' figure/body shape (I was slim but pear shaped) and constantly cautioned about what I was eating and whether I'd put weight on or not - given that I was fundamentally unattractive to begin with. Which hasn't helped.

Thank you for sharing your dynamic. Actually, I think you might have hit on something. I felt like I could be very open with Mr 42-43 about what I wanted; what I liked; what I wanted to try and that definitely created a 'safe space' in which to try things. We talked a lot about sex and what we liked/didn't like and how things could be improved/what was amazing and I think that's partly what gave both of us the confidence to do so. I definitely took the lead and he said he really liked how open I was and how much he enjoyed talking about it.

Mr Present, on the other hand, I'm not sure he's so keen on talking. He made it quite clear early on that he wasn't into sexting and the like. Which is fine, although I quite like it! But he has sort of shut down any attempt I've made at even flirting if it hints at anthing sexual. I don't know to what extent he's actually uncomfortable with it and to what extent I've been cast as 'sweet' in his mind and he doesn't feel it's appropriate - for want of a better word. It has meant that I now feel very inhibited. I'm not very intuitive and I don't pick up on hints so, for me, I guess I need to talk about it.

I worry, as much as anything, that he just sees me as 'sweet' and 'lovely' and doesn't think I'm 'sexy' Maybe he just doesn't 'see me in that way'?

I'm still not sure how I'd feel about any mismatches, although i do completely get what you're saying. I think I'd feel that I was inadequate or letting him down or that he was missing out.

I'm just not really sure how to broach it now though. In my head, I'm not actually as meek as I come across. I think I am just rather crippled by self doubt. For example, I quite like being watched. But if he just doesn't find me sexually attractive, that's not going to do either of us any good!

I think maybe that is the crux of it all, do you believe that your partner finds you sexually attractive?

There is another explanation in that it may be that he isn't really into the act itself and it's nothing to do with you.

I had a guy once, saw him for nine months. I could tell he HATED the act itself. We only ever did it probably 5 or so times in 9 months. Every time he did it more or less, he looked like a lamb going to the slaughter. He did however, love me giving him oral. He would then come and then couldn't get hard again.

I was just out of a very long term relationship (18 years) and I was vulnerable. I should have kicked him to the kerb but I didn't.

It is a surprising notion in an age where sex is rammed down our throats (no pun intended), that some men are really not that into it. I think this is where you need to step back and have a think. His reticence will be, trust me, about how he views sex as a whole and is not a reflection on your own attractiveness. Hell, the 42-43 thing proves it, does it not?

But I can see that you are crippled with doubt about this and I can also see that you, like me, have very high sex drive.

Here if you need me, OP x