Do I stop contact between my son and his dad?

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At which point do you say 'enough is enough'. That is what I am struggling with at the moment.

My ex and I broke up three years ago as he had a porn addiction, constantly lied and was emotionally abusive towards me. He has massive self esteem issues, which result in him going through depressive and self hating periods. He sees me splitting up with him as me 'rejecting him', which has given him a deep rooted hatred and vitriol towards me.

That would be fine, as long as he had a proper relationship with our son, and kept our issues separate, but he doesn't.

He sees our son once a month. He does not have him overnight on those occasions, but for 9 hours Saturday and Sunday. Often the days are filled with meandering about and a sandwich for dinner, as he is notoriously tight and does not want to spend a lot of money. Sometimes they will sit outside my home in the car, waiting for me to return as they have 'run out of things to do.' To his credit he does sometimes organise fun things to do, but I would say that is 50% of the time. He is often late to pick him up, not always, but frequently by 15-20 minutes.

In-between the time that he does see our son, he does not contact me to ask how he is, how nursery is. He does not ask to speak on the phone to our son, voice note, Skype - nothing. I have raised that once a month isn't good enough, not contacting him in-between isn't good enough, he agrees but makes no changes to his behaviour.

He lives over 3 hours away and will have our son in the holidays, usually for roughly half of the time unless its the Summer holidays. For the last few months, my son has been saying he does not want to go to his daddy's house. Every time I mention he is seeing his daddy he will say, 'but not at daddy's house though.' He wants reassurance that he is not going there. Other times he will flat out say, 'I don't want to see daddy.' He doesn't say this about anyone else so in that sense it is abnormal behaviour. He also says he doesn't 'love his daddy', or will whittle of a list of people he loves either excluding his daddy or placing him last. He has just spent the weekend with his dad and didn't want to go on the Sunday, clinging to me until we coaxed him to.

This is what concerns me the most as I feel I should listen to my son. Im concerned that my forcing him to see his father is not going to benefit him in the long run.

Tonight I tried to bring up these issues with his dad. With regards to the contact, he gave some vague notion that he might move closer to him in the next year or so. He agreed to contact him more but I know that won't happen, because it never has in the past. To his credit he has consistently paid me £50 a week in child maintenance, but he recently started to earn commission at work and refuses to cooperate with me on how this will effect his payments. I discussed CMS with him and he was extremely rude and condescending, accusing me of wanting more money because he is 'finally having some success in life,' and also told me that I am 'speaking in an abyss.' Every issue I raise with him somehow links back to an issue he perceives me to have with him, I don't, I just want what is in the best interests of our son!

I am concerned that his hatred towards me will also have an extremely negative impact on our son, combined with the recent behaviour my son actively telling me he does not want to see him. It is extremely difficult to know what is for the best, what will be more damaging. What have others done in this situation?

Go to cms. I’m not entirely sure that you can withhold your son though. Especially if you have a legal agreement in place.

We do not have a legal agreement. My concern stems from not knowing what is best, to allow this half-arsed terrible excuse of contact/lack there of, or to listen to my son when he says he does not want to see him. It's what is the lesser of two evils. I know that this is already effecting my son by the fact he doesn't want to see his dad, go to his house and 'doesn't love him.' It's whether I let this continue in its current state or tell his dad that he takes on a proper, parental role or fucks off quite frankly.

How old is your son? Can he verbalize why he doesn’t want to go to daddy’s house? Why he doesn’t love daddy? Is his dad doing something specific that he’s not liking?

I agree, go to CMS to get proper maintenance. The best way.

How old is your son? I'm guessing pretty young? And therefore not old enough to make his own mind up?

Your ex is clearly a pretty awful dad. But there's nothing in what you've said to suggest that he is a risk to your son. So I don't see any grounds for withholding contact. If you did so on the strength of what you've said here, and your ex took it to court, I'm confident that you would lose.

However, it's clear that there are some issues here that need to be addressed. That needs to be your priority - trying to support your son, and improve the relationship he has with his dad.

First, you need to completely separate the issues between you and your ex from the relationship that your son has with him. Maintenance and contact are unrelated. Your ex should be paying what is due, so take that to the CMS and get it formalised, so that you don't have to worry about it.

There was quite a bit in your post about this history between yoh and your ex. It's really important that this doesn't influence your son's relationship with his father. No matter how hard, you have to ensure that he isn't aware of your feelings, because that will lead to divided loyalties for him, and would exacerbate any worries he has. It is definitely worth reflecting on whether your (understandable) views of your ex could be 'leaking' to your son, and contributing to the problem.

Then, it's worth thinking about how to strengthen the relationship between father and son. You can't force more contact, but you're right to keep encouraging it - it'll be hard to forge a stronger relationship with so little time together.

You also need to keep the lines of communication open about what your son is saying about his dad. If your ex will agree tk it, family therapy for him and his son could be really helpful int trying to build a stronger connection. It can be tailored to age.

Try to talk to your son about what specifically worries him about going to dad's house. Really listen, without preconceptions. With children of all ages, it can sometimes be a completely random and easily fixable thing.

It's worth sharing as much as you can with your ex about your son's daily life. The odd photo or message on WhatsApp could help to keep his dad in touch with what's happening with your son, and give him more to connect over when they spend time togwther. It might even prompt more contact over the phone directly between them.

Ultimately, you can't make your ex a decent dad. But keep pushing for the right thing, and generally even a poor relationship with a parent is better than no relationship. If you do one day need to go to court, a judge will expect to see that you have done absolutely everything to encourage a healthy relationship before considering stopping contact.

You might find mediation helpful in encouraging your ex to engage with the issues, and consider what he can do to improve the relationship with his son. Mediation isn't just for when the relationship breaks down - it can be useful whenever the parents are struggling to find the right way forward to beat support their child together.

Does he mention you to your son in a bad way? How are you worried that his “hateree” towards you will affect your son ?

I hear you OP but with these details it’s not enough to decide to stop the child seeing his dad. He might regret it when he is older for all you know.. unless there is a solid reason then if he is young he can’t make that decision

Hi OP. You mention your son being at nursery, so I would say that he is too young for this huge decision to be made for him.
Better if in future he decides not to see his father off his own bat.

Your son sounds very young and there is no way based on your OP that a court will allow you to stop contact.
There are a whole load of reasons a small child might not want to go to Daddies. He may miss you when he's there or maybe he just is plain bored with not much to do.
Unless you have genuine concerns of abuse at his Dad's house then I don't think you will get far.

Speaking from experience you can't force an uninterested person to maintain contact. If he won't call her won't call. If he won't come more he won't come more.

To be honest all you can do is make sure your son is available on the once a month he does have contact and just get on with your life. Do contact child maintenance though and get payments set up properly.

Honestly you are wasting your fight. I had a decade of this :(

Ok, firstly stop talking to him about cms. Of course he’s not going to be receptive to that! You want/need more money. That’s your and your sons right but he’s not going to throw a ticker parade is he? Why even talk to him about it. Just ring CMS like other people do and get your claim in. That’s what they are there for. They sort it all out properly and you will then get the right amount. What he thinks about that is irrelevant. Stop caring or agonising what his opinions/thoughts about things are.
Next, unless there are safeguarding concerns you shouldn’t stop access. An ex of mine had this happen to him. His mother stopped access in similar circumstances. Crap dad, not engaged, boring...not abusive though. He grew up resenting his mother. Did this weird hero dad worship thing because he had no real life contact to base anything on. Got in contact later in life and it totally fucked him up because the dad was a serious let down. So he took it out on his mother. All the resentment and anger. It all became her fault for not letting him ever have a relationship with the dad. She ended up the blame victim. Not nice at all. So what if the visits are boring. At least your kid won’t grow up resenting you for withholding contact. Maybe one afternoon every other weekend would be better though. He could take him to the cinema. Maybe 9 hours is just too intense. None of its ideal but just lodge your cms claim, get your maintenance and work out what access would suit your kid best.

Even if he was at risk, you still can’t withold contact - you would be looking at supervised contact. Which brings its own sets of issues, especially for a young child with limited capacity to understand whatever explanation you need to give. So no, I would not stop contact. I would work on finding ways to make the contact experience more positive for them both. Which yes is his dad’s responsibility but you will feel better if your son feels better about it.

Could you make the contact days shorter? It might be that he is away from you for too long.

I would definitely be trying to find out in a gentle unpressured way why he doesn't like daddy's house. Are there other people there who scare him? Dog? Or is it just boring for him? Agree with others re maintenance, cms claim and to hell with how the ex feels about it.

Would ex actually do anything at all if you stopped or restricted contact?

If your ex lives 3 hours away, he will be struggling to do things with your DS. Do you expect him to drive 3 hours to yours, pick up DS, drive 3 hours back to his and then do the return journey a couple of hours later?
Why can your DS not spend Saturday night at his father's home? That would make it so much better for both of them.

Why not limit the contact to 1 day a week if father is running out of things to do with him. Also he doesn’t stop overnight in those days but he lives three hours away? Is that correct as that’s a lot of travelling for all concerned?

If he's quite young, two days on the trot with nine hours out and about sounds quite knackering and not particularly enjoyable for the little one - I wonder if this is causing his reluctance?

Totally agree that he should be facetiming or calling in between.

Ah sorry, I may have misunderstood. On the weekend he sees his son, does he take him back to his house?

Nine hours for one weekend a month is too long for both of them I imagine? Especially for your child who does not see his father very much and probably misses you.

Cut the hours down to half and see if there is any improvement. It would be better if you child's father agreed to the reduction, given he is sitting outside your house in the car I don't think this will be much of a problem.

You are right to be concerned. I would also agree a meal plan for your child whilst he is with his father, and expectations of how he will be cared for. It is a shame he is not putting more effort into his relationship with his child, given he barely sees him, but you can't change that. Better to focus on what you can do to make this better for you little boy.

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I wanted to address a few things mentioned on the thread.

His hatred could well be leaking into our son. I know with almost certainty that he would say rude and condescending things about me, to other people, in front of our son. He speaks to me terribly to my face, in my own home when our son is there. He speaks to me terribly over the phone without regard of our son. I have told him that being rude to me will only make their relationship worse - our son won't take kindly to it as he gets older - but he continues.

If I did stop contact all tougher I don't believe his dad would do anything. I think I would get a load of abuse about how I am spiteful and a terrible person. Do I believe he would go to court? Not a chance in hell. Do I believe he'd try to see him, turn up on his weekends and demand to see him? Extremely doubtful too. I think deep down he would be relieved and being absolved of the responsibility to be perfectly honest.

My son is four and a half, due to start school in September. When I have asked why he doesn't want to see his daddy or doesn't love him, he either refuses to answer or says 'I don't like him.' I very much doubt it is my feelings rubbing off on him. I am very careful to be neutral, I do not speak critically about his dad in front of him at all. I do everything I can to avoid atmospheres, if anything I praise his dad more than I should.

He does not have him overnight when he has our son on the one weekend a month. I agree it would be too far for our son to travel in a weekend, when I have suggested he could see our son EOW, maybe having him at this house I am told it would be 'too expensive' and not 'worth it' for him. I've also suggested he could book a cheap hotel or air B&B for some of the weekends he is down and have our son - our son is very adaptable and loves staying in new places, so I am sure he would enjoy that. But again it is too 'expensive.' Yet he can spend lots of money on holidays and hotels for him and his girlfriend. I couldn't care less about this, but he's not prepared to do the same for our son. Our son will notice this as he gets older.

He would not agree to seeing him more. One weekend a month is the 'most' he can see him due to - his words - the money and the drive. I have been down this avenue many times and he refuses to budge. This current set up is the best we are going to get.

9 hours is a long time - but would reducing that really help their relationship? This is where I am torn. If I were to reduce it to 4.5 hours, wouldn't this just exacerbate things as he is then seeing him even less - only 9 hours a month. I don't even know if ex would agree, he probably wouldn't out of spite because he would perceive it as some kind of personal attack against him. I asked my son this morning if he enjoyed his weekend with his daddy and he told me no. When I asked if it was too long he replied 'yes' and 'it's boring.'

Last time he went to his daddy's house he had a massive tantrum when he turned up to take him. It took me bribing him to get him into the car. I really don't feel happy with letting him go to stay there given this and the lack of contact at other times. It mustn't be nice for my son to have such poor, limited contact then be forced to interact with him for a week. I think if he ups his contact at other times then I will agree to let him start going again, but I can imagine it is very weird and our son doesn't enjoy it. His dad also parents in a very different, much harsher way to me which doesn't help things. When our son returns to my home after these trips he seems upset and confused.

I have also seen it go the other way. I have an ex who had (and still has) massive issues from his feelings of rejection from his dad. His dad similarly never really bothered with him, and didn't make their time together special. This was worse when his dad went on to have children with another woman and the differences in their treatment became clear. He cut contact himself when he was 16, but it messed him up big time.

It is not your job to create a bond between them op, only to facilitate the contact.

Personally I would cut back the hours drastically with the agreement of your ex partner, and see if things get better. I wouldn't hesitate to stop altogether if your child is very distressed and his father is indifferent. It does not sound like he really cares about his son, and given that your child is getting so upset I am not sure why it is worth continuing.

I am sure I will be flamed, but why put yourselves through it?!

I think the best move forward is to reduce the hours on the weekend he does see him. I agree it is a lot of time to be spending so intensely with his dad given the circumstances. If I we were to reduce to 5 hours, it would mean that those 5 hours could be (hopefully) packed out with fun activities. I will tell him he is welcome to have him for longer if he tells/shows me what they will be doing for those 9 hours: not just meandering. I will also tell him he needs to ensure he has an appropriate dinner, sandwiches are okay on the odd occasion, but it can't be every time he sees him. His tight nature isn't helping their relationship either.

I had another chat with DS over lunch about going to his dad's and tried to get the bottom of why he doesn't want to go. He said the journey is too far, it's boring at daddy's house and he doesn't like the toys there, he misses me and he doesn't like daddy. As I said, this is clearly causing my son anxiety and stress as shown by the tantrums and every time dad is mentioned quickly saying 'I don't want to go to his house though.'

I am going to tell his dad that he needs to leave his annual leave to come and actually interact with his day-to-day life. To be involved in his nursery and upcoming school life, rather than going up there for a week at a time which clearly isn't promoting a good relationship between them. It must be difficult to go from practically zero time spent together for 8 weeks, to then go there for an entire week away from me, his home, his family. My son isn't just clingy to me for his age, as I mentioned he is fine staying over or going for days out with anybody else. He frequently goes out and stays with his nanny, grandad, auntie/uncle etc. and never has this response. Therefore it is clearly going to his dad's house and spending time with him that is causing the issue.