Boundaries - where to even start

[blackcat86]

DD is 6 months old and her birth was horribly traumatic and filled with hospital negligence resulting in her near death. We are currently going through a complaints/legal process for this. I have unsurprisingly ended up with PND and feel really unsupported by DH and our families. I spoke to a counsellor over the phone who made me realise that this has been made about everyone else and their pain and no one actually gives two hoots that it was actually my experience and my pain, and that I was and am still in need of support. She said that I need to find and enforce my boundaries but I actually don't know where to start without coming across as rude. Do I make slow changes, do I call people on their bullshit? Since being diagnosed with PND no one has asked me how I am. The in laws take any opportunity to talk about how hard the experience was for them and how anxious they were, even telling random waitresses in restaurants how she nearly died. They repeatedly compared my pregnancy to their still born which I just found awful and whilst I get that it's every parents worst nightmare, they've had 45yrs to process that experience. My parents are sticking their head in the sand about the PND and don't want to hear of it. They just say DD had a tough start and it's nice to see her being a normal baby. DH focuses on himself and how hard it all was for him because he went home every night to check on the cat and had an hour long drive eitherway. The fact I was left every night with a newborn having just had major surgery hasn't occurred to anyone. Yet they will all go on about how much support they've given me. How do I even start to unpick this so I can heal and create a healthy environment for DD?

Sorry you had that experience. I think you should focus on what you need and what will make you feel better, positive things you can ask for and aim for, rather than negative.

People are self-absorbed and do tend to talk about how things affect them. What do you need from them, and are they likely to give it if you ask for it explicitly?

Thanks category, that's good advice. Perhaps I just need to put a pin in what has happened and try to move on in a positive way. I don't think I want anything too extravagant but I guess it's softer things rather than something concrete. Maybe my current list needs revision.
-to feel loved and supported.
-for it to be acknowledged that this was my experience and DDs first and foremost. To talk about it when I need to and not when I don't.
-to have my experience listened to and respected without it ending up with me comforting someone else whilst they talk about how bad it was for them.
-for the in-laws not to talk about it to random strangers to illicit sympathy.
-for the in laws not to keep going on about obligation and how we should see certain family members etc who are quite negative to us and showed no effort during the worst of times.
-to ask people to stop asking when we'll have another baby. I don't know if I'll ever be ready and I'm not just there as a rent a womb. We probably will do in time but I don't feel the need to commit to it.
-to feel like DH actually gives a shit about me. I'm sure he does but doesn't always show it.
-to feel that sometimes I'm the priority.

I think that we both struggle with not wanting to upset people and me having a difficult end to the pregnancy, butchered c section and poorly baby has highlighted issues that we're there before. You're right, everyone is self absorbed so perhaps i need to be rather than being a people pleaser.

Your husband sounds like more of the problem here. Is he seriously complaining about driving further than usual? I think you need an honest conversation about how it was for you. Rely on your counsellor. Do you have any good friends you can talk to? Try to ignore the inlaws

OP, you say you don’t know where to start, but you’ve made a beautifully comprehensive list of your needs on this thread! Why not print that out and hand a copy to all the relevant people, including DH and the two sets of grandparents?
They can take it away, read and digest, and see what needs to change. It could form the basis for a family discussion/intervention that might air all this out and help you in healing and being able to move on.
I imagine the ILs have found all this upsetting as it will have triggered memories of their stillbirth all those years ago, and they may have feared that you or their GC might die too. A discussion of everybody’s issues and feelings, as well as yours, could be helpful all round.

I totally acknowledge that it would have been upsetting for all involved. I've suggested counselling to MIL but she won't hear of it. I think she slightly enjoys the drama.What's shocked me is the PILs lack of compassion given what they've been through.

I have thought about suggesting marriage counselling to DH so perhaps that will help air some of this to help me heal and move on. I definitely have a DH issue to. We used to have a great relationship before I got pregnant but as things became harder for me the dynamic never caught up.

As much as I would love to print off and post this up on a wall in the house I think there is a big collective delusion. Ask any of the GPs or my DH if they were/are supportive and I expect they would say of course we are. Maybe it's more about challenging things said and done at the time when they happen now as it's really hard to challenge someone's account of what happened 6 months ago. It's hard to know how to do this without feeling like I'll be rude. Maybe I just need to say what I think at the time rather than coming out with something polite and fluffy.

I sympathise with the “polite and fluffy”comment, OP - I think most women are conditioned from girlhood to people please, to put others first, to just suck up their own distress.
Maybe some assertiveness training would help you to state your needs better to others, and not defer all the time?

Pick out a couple of the most irritating bits. Work out a response to them. Practice saying it out loud, write it down, get really comfortable with the words. Then use them.

For example when telling people how awful they felt, you could calmly say "it was the worst time of my life, I'd rather not relive it. Let's talk about something else." "I get so upset when you talk about that, I'm going to the kitchen to make a cuppa. Let me know when you've finished."

Gosh that sounds utterly awful OP. I'm so sorry you had to go through that and also are now still dealing with insensitive and self-absorbed family members.

I'm amazed you've not had an almighty blow up at your DH yet, given his complaints and I'm assuming his lack of dealing with the in-laws and how they are affecting you.

I would start with him. Explain the whole experience is still affecting you and keep steering the conversation back to you and your DD if he digresses. If he doesn't take notice and keeps going on about his own feelings and experiences then shut it down or tell him that YOU need to talk about it, and that you do not feel that he has your back.

Also get him to explain to his parents that they are not helping or being supportive. Again if they continue shut down the conversation as suggested above.

Yes of course the whole experience will have been awful for all involved but YOU are the person who grew and birthed your DD. You have PND (and perhaps look into PTSD too with your counsellor).

Time to be a bit more selfish and a bit less concerned about rudeness - your list is great by the way.

Tell your DH, your parents and your IL’s “I am very saddened that myself and LO have been through something really difficult, traumatic and painful and you are not able to summon any support at all.”

When they inevitably chime out with how amazing they are, you need to be clear on PRACTICAL things you could do to prove it. What do you need from them? I’m sure you would appreciate being able to spend some quality time with your new baby without having to worry about the rest of life - can they offer help by doing a wash, making a meal, doing some dishes etc?

Tell your IL’s straight that you do not feel comfortable with them telling your personal, painful and traumatic story to strangers without your consent. It is not their story to tell, it’s yours. This is not support, this is using your trauma for their own selfish gain.

“I’ve been through an awful time and I am not ready. I will let you know if and when I am ready to...” Rinse and repeat every time they want you to see extended family members, every time they want to discuss the possibility of another child before you even get the opportunity with the one you currently have

Sit your DH down and have an honest discussion about how awful you feel about the fact he is being a twat complaining about driving when your insides were being ripped open. His inconvenience is not the priority right now. Your health and your LO’s health is important. Sit him down and discuss it all really calmly and matter of fact, so he can’t make some claim about it being hormones.

Good luck OP and congrats on your new baby

How bloody awful for you. I agree with Pickle's suggestion to find specific language to set boundaries and learn them and use them. Perhaps things like...

"I know it was an upsetting time for everyone, but right now this isn't helpful."

"I'd appreciate it if you'd stop talking about my/my daughter's experience to anyone and everyone. It's grossly insensitive and I find it upsetting."

"I don't particularly want to see [relatives], and that's my choice. You go see them if you want to."

"Are you seriously asking me when I'm going to have another baby after what me and daughter went through? Wow, that's pretty insensitive."

I am of the firm belief that we can all say absolutely anything we want to without being rude. One of the reasons we get upset is because we are afraid of saying what we need to for fear of causing hurt or trouble. YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT to speak your mind and mean what you say. DO NOT feel guilty. They can all bugger right off. I wish you and your daughter all the best.

The people around you are all telling you their truths, while you feel unable to share your truth. That means you are repressing all your emotions and that will take its toll. Be prepared to tell your truth, and if some people aren't keen on that let them sit up and take notice that you have PND and cut you some slack!

"You know what, it would be lovely if someone asked me how I feel!"
"It was traumatic for you wasn't it! Imagine how it was for me, on my own after major surgery, feeling like no one cared"
Etc.

You are all fantastic and bang on the money. The suggested phrases are really helpful. I'll definitely be practicing them. The counsellor discussed PTSD but said they wouldn't want to label it as anything but PND so soon after birth.

In the first weeks whilst me and DD were still in hospital my parents would come and do washing, feed the cat and make sure there was food in the fridge for DH if he got home late. All that stopped the minute we got home. PIL didn't even bother with that. I think they may have fed the cat once. Both sets of GPs have offered to look after DD but she screams when they hold her because she isn't comfortable with them. They probably see her every 1-2 weeks but it's all very hands off and very much just wanting to cuddle and coo her which at 6 months she has no interest in. PIL blame this on me and DD always being at home just being me and her so she's only used to me despite her already having several baby friends, countless medical appointments and a few baby classes.

They don't see her as a new baby anymore so doing stuff around the house doesn't occur to anyone. The PIL have been here when DD has projectile vommitted over herself, me and the sofa. Everyone just shifted out the way of the sick until I'd cleaned up. My mum gets really upset that DD screams at her. She retired a few weeks after DD was born but has gone back to work temporarily rather than spending more time with her.

It's clear that I need to be more direct and if that upsets people well they'll just have to get over it. I guess it's easy for people to delude themselves about how amazing they are until they're called on their bullshit. This has motivated me to suggest to DH that we turn down MILs invite to dinner on mother's day because actually the three of us should be spending it together and DH should plan something nice for me. I'm sure he can also plan something nice for his mum separately. He needs to start getting his shit together and appreciate all I've done for DD (I'm so unbelievably proud of her progress as she's still met all her milestones but christ it's been hard work!).

Your not getting much support really are you? Neither sets of parents seem much help. I didn't have much support but it didn't bother me at the time. Then one day when I realised (by then my daughter was alot older) I felt quite let down, and a bit vulnerable, because also my husband wasn't very supportive either. It suddenly hit me that I couldn't really rely on any of them. I also had a traumatic birth, so I do get it. As your baby is still very young, you should try to address all this. It seems a bit unfair because you probably don't feel like a battle. Well don't have one. If they don't make it easy let it go, and concentrate on yourself and baby. I hope your husband at least will be more supportive. As a pp, I think said, try to mix with other mums, and I think you will find support from them, and someone will have a similar experience, which will help you.

Have you come across Ring Theory OP? Often used in mental health but was brought to my attention when going through breast cancer.
I like 'comfort in, dump out'
You might be able to show it/discuss with your DH?
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/promoting-hope-preventing-suicide/201705/ring-theory-helps-us-bring-comfort-in

I love the link about ring theory. This is exactly the point I think. Fair enough this has raised a lot of issues to everyone but don't come and dump your emotional shit on me when I'm the one in need of support. This has all really spurred me on. I've has my nails done and cut off about 4 inches of hair just because I want to do something for myself, I've contacted my boss to get a date to go back to work in 3 months part time, and I've asked my dad (retired) to babysit for an hour next week as I've been offered a face to face counselling session. I told DH that I don't want his mum organising my mother's day and that he can come up with something thoughtful on DDs behalf given that I have always sorted out a gift and card from DSS. It doesn't have to be expensive, just showing a bit of appreciation. Baby steps. The in laws are over for dinner tomorrow night as DSS will be here so I'll get my stock phrases ready!

Just checking in with you. Sounds like you're making some progress sorting this out in your head. So glad you've had your hair and nails done too. You rock! (And don't you forget it.)

You sound stronger @blackcat86
It's great you've taken some time for you, and the return to work will help. I found after DS1 that my return to work was the thing that put my marriage back on an equal footing as DH had become lazy and taken me for granted whilst on mat leave (didn't happen during the second mat leave!).

Hope the dinner goes well and you're able to deflect/move the conversation away. Might be worth letting your DH know that you're done talking about it all and that you would like him to support you when you are changing the subject and telling them that you don't want to discuss it.

How did he react to your Mother's Day plans?

He was ok with the mother's day plans as I don't think he actually wanted to go out with his parents although he probably wouldn't have said anything or planned an alternative if I hadn't raised it. I'm feeling a bit more 'fuck it' today.

My mum left a couple of toys for DD in porch whilst i was out. I was going to put them away as I'm sure the MIL will pass comment and say 'oh we were going to buy her something' (I bet they weren't nor do I expect anyone to) or make out it's somehow dangerous or not needed despite it being new ELC or Mothercare stuff not rat poison. But...fuck it...I've dumped them on the dining table until i can break them out of the packaging. I'm a bit miffed that the stuff was in the porch rather than my mum visiting but it's still thoughtful.

I also booked DD in to see a cranial osteopath next week. I'd thought about it as she has a preference for one side but knew I'd get a lot of concerns, comments and judgement BUT....fuck it. She's my baby and it's my money so it's not really anyone else's business. I just won't tell them.

I've been looking up the grey rock which I may use if the PIL try to use DDs birth or my PND as a source of drama or to get sympathy. I wouldn't mind talking about it if it was an appropriate question like have you heard anything from the complaints team/solicitor, how did DD get on at the hospital or (gasp) how are you feeling!! But it won't be and I don't need drama or pop psychology so I just won't engage.

Well done you! Summon up a bit of righteous anger, and let it fuel you.

I love the oh I need the loo. Comment.
When they annoy you just say excuse me and go the loo.
When they start telling someone about your private business, hold your hand up, and say to your PIL ... Please can you not tell this story as I am still upset about this and it is not appropriate.

I think professional support is what you need. Most ordinary people are not equipped to support others who have been through such a traumatic situation. I do think your relatives sound rather self-absorbed but they have also been affected by this- yes, not as directly as you whatsoever, but just because they are older doesn't mean they know what to do or say, or how to deal with their own feelings. Your experience could have triggered very painful memories for your ILs, for example. They would have had very little support for their trauma at the time and probably never got over it.
Seek professional help- your relatives appear ill-equipped to give you the help you need and deserve.

Well done for posting, Blackcat86. It sounds awful and terrifying for you. PND is so common. Trauma during birth is also common with subsequent PTSD.

It must be hell waiting for answers. It IS hell waiting for answers.

So, perhaps at the moment your nearest and dearest are being self absorbed.

How are you getting on with the solicitors? How are you feeling? How is your dd getting on? Are you getting appropriate support for yourself? Your experience isn't unique so I hope you have been referred to the right people.

After I'd had my boob lopped off (breast cancer), I was furious with the surgeon when he came round to see how I was doing. He was actually a very kind and considerate man and I am really sorry I was so rude to him.

At the moment you need someone for you. You nearly lost a child and your body has been shredded. Our nearest and dearest are often the most useless in this kind of situation so it's important to find specialist help.

[[hugs]

So dinner was an interesting experience. I'd tried to make things easier by having DD in bed (in laws had spent Sunday with her), dinner done and drinks out. PIL like to be waited on so this didn't go down well but meant i wasn't running around after everyone whilst being talked at about something emotional. MIL started the usual conversations and I suggested she seek her own counselling which she refused. I'm starting to think it's less about the experience with DD and more about holding court as when I deflected or left the room she simply escalated to something else. I'm going to discuss the grey rock with DH. I've realised she wants some perceived perfection with DD. It was all about what our friends are doing for childcare and pictures of them with their GPs. They see DD at least weekly. They actually weren't that interested in her when I stepped back and observed the conservation. Discussions about an issue with her skull were completely poo pooed as nothing because clearly FIL knows more than a pediatrian.There was no mention of my huge hair change, the complaint/solicitor, not even a question of how DD is or how I am.

DD is doing really well. She's more comfortable so starting to catch up on physical milestones. I feel like we're bonding more. I'm still unsure of myself but have started ADs. It feels like maybe I need ADs because my life is just a bit shit which sucks in itself. I've told DH that we need a shack up. Spending so much time with PIL is unhealthy and we need to be around people our own age who share our values.

We're half way through the complaints process and initial investigation with the nursing and midwifery council so I'm expecting to hear back in the next couple of weeks.

Wow! You've really started to take back control, well done! You've noticed some really interesting things which will help you feel better about the situation. It will be interesting to see what your DH thinks, when you show him.
It sounds as if MiL is using this for narcissistic supply. So grey rock will help because you won't be giving her the intensity of attention she craves.