Difficult relationship with mum. Any fellow travellers?

[Suffragettestory]

I’m a a long time lurker, reading threads for support and I’d love some perspective on this situation of mine.

I have a difficult relationship with my mum. She has this idea of me as an unreliable person who does not pull their weight in the family. I believe this is because I don’t act exactly the way she would like me to.

Some of the things that have happened during my life are:

Two days after the birth of my dc (only child, maybe relevant) she refused to talk to me for two weeks because I did not answer my phone to receive her advice about caring for my baby. I was asleep after a traumatic labour. I woke to 15 missed calls and her screaming at the voicemail that “no one listens to her or wants her advice”. I had to apologise and beg her to come and see me and my dc, which she did, acting wounded. I was crippled with anxiety in my dc’s first year and spend time as a mental health inpatient.

When my dc was around 4, she told me she and my dad had got tickets to a show, could dc come? I sent my dp over to drop her off, I’d pick her up later. Almost immediately she called to ask what I was doing, why was I not there. I said I was writing a job application. She said I was lazy, what did I do when dc was at nursery, could I not do it then. She wanted me there to prepare the dinner for when they came home. Hung up, raging, went to pick up dc.

Favours and childcare are conditional. She and dad looked after dc while I was working when she was little, along with my sister’s dc. My sister is frequently accused of not being grateful enough for this. Obviously it’s stressful caring for 3 small children but she would never consider saying that it’s stressful. Instead she would get angry at us. She once told me that she would kill herself if my sister got a childminder.

She sulks and refuses to speak my sister when sister socialises with someone mum doesn’t like, it perceives has acted badly towards her.

When I was a teenager in a relationship with another girl she told me to get my (gay) friends out of the house. I was subsequently shamed into breaking up with that person.

She projects her own childhood issues on to my sisters dc3, saying they are “the bottom of the pile”, “ignored” etc. (She is 3rd of 3).

She has got it in her head that I should visit with dc once a week (60 min round trip). I don’t go every week because I sometimes have work, dc is tired, and often because I know she will spend 3 hours bitching about and bickering with my dad, making passive aggressive comments and generally shrieking.

I’m a dick sometimes. To my shame I forgot her birthday two years ago (they go away a lot and they were away then, I just forgot. I apologised and cried). I said I would do an activity with them last summer then arranged something else by mistake. That was crappy.

The difficult thing is that I want to have a good relationship with her, but I can’t deal with her behaviour. I have stopped dancing to her tune, and she is furious about it. On Xmas day I left before one of he activities I was supposed to have planned. I did some of the things she asked, like bring games but we didn’t have time to do another activity. I wanted to go, kids were getting ratty, she was drunk and had begun the passive aggressive comments about how she never sees her grand children (even though she does). I was done. She hit the roof when we left, upset the other children, cried for hours at my sister because it didn’t go her way.

I can’t confront her. I feel like the bravest I can be is to go low contact on my terms but it is clearly enraging her. I talk a good talk, but when imagine facing her with these things I am terrified. I have no meds strong enough to deal with the anxiety. I have arranged to meet my dad, but I think he would rather go on brushing things under the carpet, excusing her behaviour. I’m afraid he will reiterate all the things she has said about me as true and I need to be strong enough to see that for what it is.

I feel like I’m breaking up the family and depriving my dc of their grandmother but I just can’t carry on like this. I am the scapegoat just now but it has been my sister in the past. She isn’t always bad, only when someone isn’t toeing the line. Then everyone suffers.

Not sure what I’m looking for, maybe some fellow travellers.

Thanks for reading. Will update on my journey.

Didn't want to read and run OP, this sounds like a very stressful relationship for you, and although I hear you about low contact being the most you can muster, I would advocate going NC. I have done with my own DM for the last 7 months and it has been a real weight off my shoulders (a narcissistic alcoholic with MH issues, resulting in her treating all around her poorly .... sound similar?). You wouldn't choose to have someone in your life who treats you like this, why put up with it from a relative? Good luck

First off you are not a dick. You are instead the adult child of two toxic parents and an adult child at that who is blundering around trying to work through low self esteem and self worth, fear, obligation and guilt.

re your comment:-
"The difficult thing is that I want to have a good relationship with her, but I can’t deal with her behaviour"

What you want (i.e.a good relationship with her) is not ever going to happen. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way. She has been the matriarch of this dysfunctional family unit, a unit that she in part together with your dad (her enabler here) created. I would not let him off the hook here because he in turn threw you and your sister under the bus and thus failed you utterly. He chose self preservation and want of a quiet life. Many such men are also weak bystanders.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; these can also be interchangeable particularly in narcissistic family structures. You will in time likely return to a scapegoat role again with your sister being the favoured golden child here.

How are you exactly depriving your child of a grandmother when clearly she is manipulative (tears can also be manipulative)and plays you like a fiddle. She does not act like a decent person, let alone a grandmother figure. Do you really want this woman, your mother, to have influence on your child and affect that person in not too dissimilar ways as to how you are now?. She was also not a good parent to you when you were growing up so how could she ever become a decent model of a grandmother here?. It was not and is not going to happen, look at how she has affected both your sister and you here. You are going to have to let it go, let go the hope (forlorn) that she will have some sort of epiphany and say sorry to you or change. Such disordered of thinking people like your mother never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. No-one saw it fit to protect you from such malign influences sadly but you can and should protect your DC going forward from people like your mother. Your child will thank you for doing so and that person anyway needs emotionally healthy role models.

Do read up also on fear, obligation and guilt re toxic people and seek the help of a therapist, one at that who has no familial bias about keeping families together. Have a read too of the "out of the FOG" website and Captain Awkward.

I would post too on the latest of the long running "Well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these Relationship pages and read some of the resources listed at the start of that thread. You will also receive counsel and support there too.

Thank you so much for replying. I absolutely anticipate a future scenario when it is not me who is the scapegoat, and I am consoling her because my sister has been awful.

What do I say to my dc. How can I explain that she is not to see her. She loves her grandmother. I need to create a situation where she sees my dad, as he has not done anything. It makes me so sad to think of him not seeing her.

And I wonder, clownstotheleft, whether you told her you were going no contact? If so, how? How can I avoid a confrontation.

What do you mean by fellow travellers? x

Just others who are going through the same thing, I guess x

You cannot change anyone else’s behaviour. Ever. You can only change your reaction. The best thing anyone ever told me. You have to decide the future op. Please choose happy for you and not her x

Thanks lollypop701. I hear what you’re saying- the only behaviour I can change is my own. I feel strong. I feel like I’m doing the right thing. My confidence in myself and my decisions and my parenting is hard won and I need to protect it. Thank you for your wise words.

Does anyone think that to allow my dc to see her would be ok. I can keep an eye on her and the minute she gets treated badly she out of there.

You're not alone. You didn't break your mother and you can't fix her. It is simply not possible. You have done all you can. Time to walk away now. Prioritise yourself and your DC. You are important and your feelings and happiness matter hugely.

Go LC. Don't tell her any of this. Just be busy. Gradually reduce contact. When she does crazy shit and blows up, which she will because that's who she is, grey rock her. Stay calm and don't engage.

One of my favourite weapons is to say "oh you sound upset. I'll let you have some time to calm down." Then hang up.

Just because she is biologically related, she has zero rights in your life. Please understand that. You are a complete and wonderful person all of your own.

@Rednaxela how true

She won't ever change. Either you dance to her tune and make yourself miserable forever more, or you go low/no contact.

As for maintaining contact with your dad, you will probably, very sadly, find this almost impossible. He's been with her a long time and has allowed her to behave incredibly poorly with you and your dsis. He's the classic enabler, something discussed at length on here yesterday. Whilst he's not initiating the poor behaviour, he's not stopping her and wants an easy life so never will, regardless of how outrageous her behaviour becomes.

With my own DM it came to the final straw when she was offered both rehab for her alcohol issues and CBT therapy for her MH issues (through two different routes) and she turned down rehab and started backing away from her therapists. It was a real wake up call that she didn't want help, she was happy to continue her life (which had been in a twenty year downward spiral) as was. Considering I was the last person in our family to have contact with her due to her various vile behaviour, which included throwing wine bottles at family members front doors when they wouldn't let her in drunk, turning up at DGC birthday parties drunk, name calling, threatening to out certain private situations to others within our family, entering family's homes and then attacking them physically etc but thinking somehow the NC from family made her the victim in all those scenarios. In the end she was hassling me for contact over a certain weekend and I bluntly text her telling her that I didn't condone her choices and wouldn't choose to have someone like that in my life. She didn't bother texting or calling back.

I do feel guilt, I became pregnant very soon after (due in March), but my DH and I have decided we don't want her in our DC life the way she is now, so we haven't told her or made any new contact because of it. The hardest part is trying to explain this to others, especially my DH family who cannot fathom why I wouldn't tell my DM about the baby. You will always get people in real life (MN is more supportive) who say 'she's your mum you should always be there for her', but she is her own person, an adult in fact, who has had choices to make, ones I disagree with. I can't put my happiness to one side and be miserable and on edge waiting for the next melt down and find out via family that she has been sectioned again or on tenterhooks for the next 3 hour phone call to listen to her absolutely decimate my other family members, whom I love. I was lucky in a sense that she completely withdrew very quickly and left me alone, I know it could have been a lot worse/harder. I hope this helps, sometimes you have to be brave and bite the bullet, your DM sounds like a bully and if it were your DH experiencing this what would you advise them to do?

@maelstrop my dad does enable her behaviour but I do think he sees through it. He goes very quiet for long periods and then occasionally will explode, and tell her how awful she is. My childhood had a good deal of suitcases at the door and huge arguments, which were often blamed on me and my sister - “look what you’ve done now” sort of thing. They do have a good life and when there are no stressors, they get on like a house on fire. But it all depends on whether mum is ok or not.

@clownstotheleft thank you for sharing your experience, it sounds very difficult. And lovely news that you’re pregnant! Congratulations! . Is your other child aware of things? What do they think of a new brother or sister?

In many ways your situation is easier because your mother is doing obviously awful things like turning up drunk at birthday parties and throwing things at people. Don’t you feel very justified in cutting contact? With my mum, her bad behaviour is intermittent - she can go weeks without anything. In the weeks before Christmas I though I was rewarding her good behaviour by arranging shopping trips and family get-togethers. I did “pull my weight” as she describes it, and the whole family suffered anxiety and stress because I left her house before she thought I should.

@Suffragettestory - I hear you. Your OP resonates with me. I'm in a really similar set up but it isn't just my 'D'M, it's my 'D'Sis too. And I've only just realised how much my DF - my ally - the person I've relied on and trusted the most - has let me down. It's really hard going but I think you know in your heart of hearts that you're never going to have the relationship you would like with these people.

I'm going to put this here just in case you get a chance to read my thread. It's really hard to manage but I'm getting stronger every day. I can't change them but I can change my response to their awful behaviour towards me. They keep saying that it's my STBXH who has "changed" me. It isn't - I just finally got balls. And stood up for myself. The only reason I can deal with STBXH is because the only mode of communication is solicitors. I don't have that buffer with my family so NC is the only way forward to protect myself and my DC. Good luck.

Narc 'D'Sis (LC) wants STBXH address http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3450962-narc-d-sis-lc-wants-stbxh-address

Suffragette

re your comments in quote marks:-

"What do I say to my dc. How can I explain that she is not to see her. She loves her grandmother. I need to create a situation where she sees my dad, as he has not done anything. It makes me so sad to think of him"

Your dad here has done more than enough damage of his own; all this about having suitcases at the door and your sister and you being blamed for their arguments, a nonsense in its own right is all very damning against him. He has not seen through his wife at all and continues to choose his wife over you people at your overall expense. He has failed you here too as a parent by not wanting to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours. He is a weak bystander of a man who has simply ended up enabling his wife to carry on as she has done. If she is "ok" with him life is good for him, if she is not then life for him is the opposite.

As for what to say to the children give them the age appropriate truth. You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your parent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more. Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth.

Re your other comment:-
"Does anyone think that to allow my dc to see her would be ok. I can keep an eye on her and the minute she gets treated badly she out of there. not seeing her".

No. no and no again. The harm done to her will also happen right in front of your very eyes. The NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. Do not think this will not happen to you, I have seen examples of such behaviour on MN as well from such grandparents.

Thank you @Suffragettestory , this is our first DC (the birthday party incident was a family member).

TBH there are a number of factors why I was the last to go NC including:
•The fact I live away from family meant that I could carefully manage contact
• DM would actively keep events away from me and manipulate family into not telling me anything until after the event (ie suggesting they were responsible for ruining any relationship I had with her)
• I felt responsible for keeping all I knew was going on away from DM so she wouldn't take it out on family in her vicinity - which means she has no idea I know half the things that went on

It really is a messed up dynamic in my family where one person feels they have a right to mess with others lives and can manipulate everyone to make it all seem justified due to alcoholism and MH issues (but tbf the rest of our family are a solid unit because of her antics and I feel immensely lucky to have all of them in my life). It seems that nowadays you can say an incident is due to MH and get a lot of leeway, in this way my DM would say she didn't remember a lot of things and blame going off medication or alcohol relapse (or even alcohol withdrawal at times).

You minimise events (mine may have been slightly bigger events, and at each of the big ones another family member would go NC with my DM), until the underlying current of nastiness at family events such as birthdays and Christmas are just what you expect, and one that goes by without some sort of blow up is considered a victory.

It seems you are also doing this by minimising the way your DM is treating you now and others in the past. At the end of the day, someone is treating you badly, and it doesn't sound like any of those 'bad' things you have done justify the reaction. Your DM is an adult and should be able to articulate if they feel wronged in the same way you are probably be able to. I cannot comment on how you should manage your DC contact with their DGM, as you know I have already made that choice for my child before they are even here. But I do think children see and hear a lot more than you know and will pick up on the vibes that DGM is causing their DM pain and angst, as suggested above you will probably be surprised how little effort you have to put into having your children go low or NC, they will follow your lead and probably not think too much of it unless you bring it up to them as an issue. Let them ask questions and answer I'm a pragmatic unemotional way: give them the facts and they will probably take it at face value.