Argh! EXH refusing to change contact arrangements for teens!

[brownmouse]

Divorced nearly ten years ago and have 50:50 care. Teen DDs now 13 and 17 and want to do their own stuff and also stop moving from house to house. DH refused to discuss this with me so they tried but had the same response: he got very angry with them and refused to consider it.

He is the cross/controlling type so this is not unexpected.

Has anyone been in this situation and is there anything I can do to help? I am totally not bothered by where the DDs are at any point: I have always been very laid back about it. But now they want to have their own say, he won't allow it. I worry that he isn't going to destroy their affection for him but actually it isn't also taking a toll on their stress levels. However, I suspect they won't want to do anything confrontational as he will react badly.

Sorry both of those "isn't"s should be "is"

I have a similar issue my DD is 15 and hates moving from house to house. She has exams next month and I think it would be better for her to be in one place. He is selfish though and only thinks of himself. I'm like you if DD wanted to stay with her dad that would be ok if it's best for her in fact when she does her exams in May I think it would be better if she's at her dads as her and I clash!

I think the 17 year old can do what they want but probably not the 13 year old. Also money may come into it??

The courts were very good at listening to my friends DD when her controlling ex was very inflexible during the teenage years . He basically got told it was up to the DD .

Go back to court - your DDs are both old enough to articulate what they want/need, the court will tell your ex to suck it up

Yep, if it came to court the 17yo would obv be able to do as she pleases and the 13yo would have a strong say.

Well the 17 YO can do what she likes.
But for the 13 YO, I think you will need to go back to court.
They will listen to what she wants and then make a decision from there.

Tell him straight up, that at 17, you are not making her do anything and he needs to seriously consider how forcing situations on her will look in court.
Then advise that the 13 YO feels very strongly about this and that you will be taking him to court over this unless he can consider her wants and needs without taking it personally.

That the court will listen to what the 13 YO wants and if that's the way he wants to go then you will see him in court.

Courts should take the 13yo’s feelings and wishes into account and the 17 year old is free to do as she chooses.

Speak to a solicitor initially see if maybe you can get your ex to mediation or something.

Poor kids.

I would Be happy to take it to court but the DDs I think can't face his angry outbursts and just don't want the grief. It is easy to say that the 17 yo can do what She likes but she doesn't want to upset her dad. He is basically using his anger to get his own way.

That's a form of bullying. Your choices are:

1. stand up to it (court)
2. walk away from it (which I suspect will happen after they reach 18)
3. go along with it for a peaceful life. You only have to browse some of these other threads on here to see how that fucks up family life in the long run.

I would strongly suggest 1). If only for the sake of the 13 year old as your DDs are learning what to expect from the men in their life with this behaviour pattern.

If they don't want it move between the two they could move with him full time? You're obviously fine with them only living with one parent as wanted him to consider it so that would seem a logical option.

This is a common problem. What would be a good idea is for someone else, neutral, to speak to your ex about it - remind him how he was as a teenager and parents 'fixing' things every weekend would not have worked.

He'll come round, it's a question of adjusting to children's needs (& they are no longer, strictly speaking, children). They generally treat both houses as 'home' but want to do their own thing.

The teens also have to be considerate - they may want to stay at A one weekend, rather than B, but it might not be convenient. Works both ways. All parties have to be flexible.

It is not true that the 17 year old is allowed to do as she wants in law: parents, not children, decide how families are managed though they must take proper account of children’s needs.

It is not appropriate for children in the GCSE and A level years (years 10 to 13) to move from one house to another very regularly. They need stability and a peaceful, well organised environment to support their studies. Courts know this.

Why don’t you make a written proposal to your exH that takes account of your children’s needs?

It is not true that the 17 year old is allowed to do as she wants in law: parents, not children, decide how families are managed though they must take proper account of children’s needs.
But she could, for example, leave home and/or not see her dad.

I have said I would be happy for hem to live at his - he has a large house and plenty of space - but they don't want to. They want to spend more time with me. He has been clashing with them a lot lately.

I have spoken to them in terms of his behaviour being poor male behaviour - without wanting to sound like I'm slagging him off, but so they can see it for what it is. My worst nightmare is for them to end up 'marrying their father'.

I suspect I won't do anything but will leave it for them to tackle and make my position clear. I appreciate those who have said about their own similar experiences in particular.

But she could, for example, leave home and/or not see her dad.

In theory, but her mother might sanction her not seeing her father.

brownmouse

He got 50/50 care?. Wow, that was a legal mess up right there. How much 50/50 care has he actually done here over the years?.

You have given them mixed messages in saying that you would be happy for them to live at his house (why on earth would you say that?) but on the other hand have spoken to them about this being poor male behaviour. You still kow tow to him and fear him. This goes far beyond this merely being poor male behaviour; it is abuse from him and that is based on power and control. This man still wants absolute over you all.

Have you ever spoken to them about how he is still controlling you all; this is in effect what he is doing here. He controlled you when you were married to him and he is still doing that now that you are divorced from him. He has not changed since your divorcing him and your worst nightmare is for them to marry someone like him. I am not at all surprised to read that he has been clashing with them; he wants to still control them and now he realises he cannot use them further to get back at you as punishment for you having the gall in his eyes to actually leave him. He won't come around to your ways of thinking re them and will remain as abusive as he ever was; he wants absolute power and control here.

What do you want to teach them about relationships and what are they learning from the two of you now?.

I would let these children speak at court. Do not under any circumstances enter into any form of mediation with him; it is not ever recommended where there is abuse within the relationship. You are not safe to do this with him in any event because you would co-operate with this process and he would not. If you have never read "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft I would urge you to do so.

Yes he got 50:50 care and the house. He is the classic abuser type and very well thought of and known locally, so of course I was the mad/evil one at court. :)

Everything you say is right and it was Bancroft's book that made me leave.

I have tried to get then balance right over the years but he isn't going to change. I know the DC are starting to see that now too.

Controlling men are absolutely fucks.

OP with the greatest respect here you have to start fighting - your standpoint at the moment seems to be to leave them to do the fighting for themselves - but they are young and they wont and they will simply fall into the pattern of appeasing him and dealing with his anger until they marry themselves (probably someone similiar)

He is still punishing and controlling you all - you have to Im afraid make the first step and take him back to court - and recognise perhaps that you are passive rather than laid back

Family lawyer here. And mother of 4 teens who all complain in one way or another about contact arrangements. However, their DF is luckily very decent and although he will moans if they want to change arrangements he does understand.

First of all the legal position.

Read this:
www.pinktape.co.uk/rants/how-long-does-a-child-arrangements-order-last/

It may well be that your old order no longer applies to the 17 yo, so nothing DF can do by law to force her to go.

Re the 13 yo the old order technically still applies but can be varied.

You either impose a change and let him try to enforce the old order (then argue its DD's wishes) or you apply to vary it. There are typical times in a DC's life that a court would say it is natural for arrangements to be reviewed/evolve and 12/13 is one of them. This isn't enshrined in law, it's common sense.

Moving on to the practical side of things. The DDs could simply raise it with DF and say what they want, supported by you. However, DF is a conflict-based person. The DDs don't want to create conflict. They know this is what will happen.

The DDs have to understand that at their age theirs is the voice that will be heard. If they don't speak up then they are stuck with going along with the arrangements. You can't do this for them.

Think laterally. Could they maybe go to the school counsellor and ask for assistance in communicating their wishes to their DF? Or their form teacher?

What about some form of group mediation or therapy/counselling? Or just you and DF going to mediation?

Before either of you are allowed to issue an application you have to attend mediation. The person applying must attend, the other person can refuse.

There are exceptions to compulsory mediation, one of which is DV.

You are teaching your girls that they have to give in to a bullying man because they are scared of his anger.

The only way to deal with a bully is to stand up to them.

Get legal advice and back to court.

Don’t teach your girls that they are powerless.

A friend of mine had a similar problem and eventually her two teenage sons wrote to their dad's solicitor saying they didn't want to spend time with him anymore. Neither of them were as old as 17.

They composed the letter themselves. She had nothing to do with it. The solicitor must've spoken to her Ex, explaining that the DC were too old to be forced into contact when they had expressed themselves so clearly, because the horrible man went quiet and they never had to see him after that.

Controlling men like your Ex (and my friend's) hate being exposed in public - i.e in court, where if your DDs are asked for their views everyone would hear how unhappy they are.

I feel that even though you've been divorced for so long he's still in control in your lives. Perhaps see this as a further - final - stage in breaking free from his dominance? Your DDs need to be able to set boundaries with this vile man.

At those ages they can protest by using their feet .... as in not going, wandering off "home" if made to go. Might be more difficult with a controlling ex but kids need to know they have the power. It's up to them and if not happy, leave or don't go. The older one should be in charge of own contact arrangements. Teach the power of no and if they can't say it, text it and switch off phones.

Tell him of the new arrangements and tell him that if he makes a big fuss they may not what to see him at all. If he has a problem, you can go to court.

You are used to doing his bidding (as was i) but you have to stand up for yourself and your girls. What's the worst that can happen in each case is what you have to consider.

Having said that, it's hard for all parents when teens start not wanting tonspekd much time with them and if you're split it can be easy to attribute it to the split rather than what all teens want.

You need to ask them if they want you to take it to court. That way they get what they want and your ex can blame you rather than them. Your ex is lucky that they want to see him at all and may be acting like this out of fear of paying child maintenance. Are the girls asking for a big change?