Sleeping with someone else at the first big disagreement - narc?

[Madmozzie]

Living with partner of 7 years who gets a new job which causes great negative changes to the relationship. A difficult time, but while I'm trying to accept it (and when we're actually together, things are fine as usual), he's trying out an old friend as a new gf. So at the first sign of difficulty /disagreement, he's bailed on the relationship behind my back. Is this a classic narc move, or just plain selfishness and immaturity? He did 'come to his senses' and ditch the bitch, has now showed remorse etc, but something I read on narcs has made me wonder...

True, many people with NPD are not aware they are narcissistic and would deny it if they were in fact diagnosed

I have met only a handful of people in my lifetime that I would say fit the diagnostic criteria for NPD. Either I have been very lucky or 1 in 6 is a huge overestimation.

Being treated badly in a relationship, at the end of a relationship or after it ends does not mean a person is a narcissist. Just like an episode of rage or envy does not mean someone is narcissistic. It is prolonged behavior, not episodic.

Some info below:
In the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5), [1] NPD is defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by the presence of at least 5 of the following 9 criteria:

A grandiose sense of self-importance

A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions

A need for excessive admiration

A sense of entitlement

Interpersonally exploitive behavior

A lack of empathy

Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her

A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes

My own personal list is far more specific than that and with the help of HG Tudor, he has really opened my eyes. From my point of view and many months after becoming self-aware, I stopped naval gazing and turned my view outwards. Questions I asked myself are;

What about 'friends' who I have picked up who are Narcs? How many empaths? I'm talking about my entire life here. (Four I think, one a male - a true rare beast)

Workplace - what about there? Is it really a coincidence that so many people hate their bosses and complain of unfair treatment when the lack of affective empathy means that it is MORE likely that Narcs float to the top?

Worldview - who is suffering from NPD out there? Trump is a classic middle ranger and is unaware. Markles - ditto. Russell Brand - I think he is a self aware sufferer. Brand is really worth listening to, he is saying some very intresting things at the moment.

A personality disorder is a serious mental health diagnosis and generally people with NPD find it hard to down jobs or relationships.

You cannot diagnose a serious mental health condition from a list on the internet - which is principally a differentiation NPD from other PDs.

When posters refer to NPD on here they’re generally mean people who are selfish and self-absorbed.

I don't think it's helpful for you to think of him in those terms, OP. Instead think of it this way:

• at the first problem you faced together, he bailed out
• when he bailed out he immediately found solace with another woman
• when he realised he'd made the wrong decision, he ghosted her
• he treats you like a mug both as a partner and as a parent

You can do much better than this. There's no point trying to change him. This is what he's like. It's up to you to find it in yourself the strength to tell him to get lost.

Exactly ^ it doesn’t matter what label you give him, he’s an arsehole whichever way you look at it.

Tatiana that "list on the internet" is the list of symptoms used by the American Psychiatric Association (APA) to diagnose Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is the APA diagnistic manual that mental health professionals use to classify people with psychiatric illnesses.

Being selfish, lacking empathy or loving oneself are traits that don't necessarily mean someone is narcissistic.

Diagnostic*

I know what the DSM-5 is. Can you not see the difference between reading a list of symptoms on the internet and really understanding what personality disorder is?

That list of symptons are what mental health professionals use to diagnose NPD. Those symptoms listed differentiate NPD from other personality disorders.

The symptoms I listed are specific to NPD, which is the personality disorder the OP was questioning her partner of having

@TatianaLarina

A personality disorder is a serious mental health diagnosis and generally people with NPD find it hard to down jobs or relationships.

It is serious. But if your assertion that people with NPD cannot hold down jobs is true, the entire of society would be in utter anarchy. NPD'ers are actually propping up society.

When posters refer to NPD on here they’re generally mean people who are selfish and self-absorbed.

That is a possibility. I refer to NPD sufferers as people who lack affective empathy. I am of course a lay person but I often find (in areas such as kink for example) that the DMV is roughly 10 to 15 years behind the curve.
@HereIgoagainxx

Being selfish, lacking empathy or loving oneself are traits that don't necessarily mean someone is narcissistic.

Agree with selfish and self love. I do not agree entirely with empathy. If empathy is split into cognitive and affective empathy then a narc will not posses or never posses true affective empathy. It's a hard-wired in trait. It can be mimicked though. With some, to a very great effect.

Mother Theresa.

people with NPD cannot hold down jobs

Not what I said. I said generally... find it hard to...

Sweetie, unless I'm going completely bonkers, I did a cut on paste on your very own post...

You are apparently going completely bonkers. You could always just read it. Sweetie.

Ahh I see. I missed out generally. Generally usually means 'most'. So yeah, my intention was largely correct and you're arguing semantics.

In any case, you're wrong. Most NPD sufferes have zero problem working. Lessers of the victim cadre would much rather not work and cocklodge. One LV I knew gave himself ulcers from working. He then 'lodged for the next 20 or so years. Couldn't stand being told what to do.

You also missed out ‘find it hard to’. And also the ‘or’. Some can hold down a job but not a relationship or vice versa, some find both hard. The point is that it actually involves significant impact on sense of self and interpersonal dealings. It’s not just people who are a bit entitled and a bit selfish.

The ‘most NPD suffers’ you refer to, were they officially diagnosed by a psychiatrist?

Goodness me no! One though, yes. You know as well as I do how hard it is for some people to accept they need some kind of therapy. Getting a clinical diagnosis is neigh on impossible and to effect a change in behaviour, very very slim.

Again, I'm finding that I am disagreeing with you. The need for fuel/energy/supply is everpresent and what better a way of getting fuel than by working with others?

As to holding down relationships, it's my belief that most NPD relationships end due to the narc themselves and it is more rare for the abused to get out first. That means of course the narc has devalued the survivor to gain enough energy to drive a hoover (seduction-love bomb) against another target. One that might have better fuel prospects. That first person will be disengaged from (but not discarded) until the narc wants to come back in with another hoover. (subject to certain criteria)

If you talk to one who is self-aware, they say that even though the formal relationship is over, they will always look to hoover at some point. No matter what the span of time. The discard in actuality is a person who has been 'put on the shelf', usually with little or no warning or explanation. One day they are there and the next - poof!

If it helps, my brother's a psychologist and had to put up with me trying to diagnose NPD when my wife blew up our marriage...

His opinion: it's more accurate to say someone has "narcissistic traits" than yes/no NPD. The current thought is that narcissism, as with the Autism Spectrum and even human sexuality, is on a sliding scale. Yes, there's people who are at such an extreme you can slap a full-blown NPD label on them. So you're question should be "is he enough along the scale that his behaviour is damaging to me and I could do better"?

I think it seems obvious the answer to both is "Yes".

Goodness me no!

Quite.

I don’t think it’s helpful, or healthy, to pathologise people in this way. NPD is rare and it takes a professional to diagnose it. Yes there is a diagnosic list you can find on the internet but to properly apply it you need to be qualified. Everyone at some point in their lives can exhibit traits or personality disorder, but that’s a far cry from actually having one. An asshole is oftentimes just an asshole.

Unlikely he has narcissistic personality disorder, seeing as it’s quite rare.

Highly likely he’s just a dick. That’s unfortunately quite common.

I would agreed that everybody displays narcissistic traits but the key difference is surely, do they exhibit behaviours?

I fully believe that to be a sufferer of NPD you must lack affective empathy. Most people say 'sure I have affective empathy?' and most will.

Looking for a clinical test of affective empathy is difficult; I simply can't find one. Cognitive empathy, the ability to read emotions does not mean to say you possess them. Mirroring is key.

The self-aware and I know several are clear in that whilst they understand empathy intellectually they do not feel love, compassion, guilt or remorse. They can feel rage, anger and hatred. They have cognitive empathy. They can seek to manipulate others for supply or they may chose not to.

Well that took an interesting turn.

Why do you think being dumped is a narcissistic trait?
I don't. As I stated, it was the fact that at the first occasion of my seriously disagreeing with him and his way of doing things, he started moving on with someone else. Behind my back. That was the pertinent behaviour I questioned. I was thinking about it because I'd just read a quora thread on how long it takes a narc to drop someone (to paraphrase) and it seemed, through experience, that the common answer was - at the first sign of that person disagreeing or speaking back. I can't remember the exact phraseology, but it seemed to strike a chord with me when I read it, as I'm gradually beginning to realise how self important he is, how he needs and seeks validation (one of his given reasons for looking around and enjoying attention from other women at the time of his cheating), always thinks he's right and has to try and prove it, is not considerate on the whole (eg walks a few paces ahead unless holding hands, walks straight through a doorway without holding it open, knowing I am right behind -although I'm pretty sure he holds it for strangers), doesn't take the initiative in things like tidying up after himself or the kids, leaving things for me to do (unless I've nagged and we've had a blazing row), gets arsey when questioned on poor behaviour, which is a very poor show considering he's meant to be trying hard to rebuild the trust after I found out about his cheating.

I honestly think I have missed picking up a lot of this because he works away so much, and therefore I am somewhat used to having little attention because he's restricted by the requirements of his job. Apparently.
He has been slightly more considerate since I found out, but still gets pretty nasty at times when criticised for his shitty past behaviour, and his lies up until I found out.
Good point about the narcissistic traits being on a scale.

As to why I'm still with him - it's a slow process trying to figure out if he's worth staying with, if that was the only incident and he's lied about it through many good years because he knew it would cause trouble, I can understand that intellectually. But if it's his true core personality ie. gets arsey and aggressive when things aren't going his way, which I haven't picked up on because of time apart and me being too accommodating.... Well, that's not the type of person I want to stick around....