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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

NC with Mother. Worried I'm failing my children!

24 replies

FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 16:40

I have name changed for this post just incase anyone I know recognises this.

A few years ago I decided to go NC with my mother (She is toxic, very abusive and narcissistic). I had been thinking about it and reading about being NC with abusive parent(s) for a fair few years before hand. NC happened after a 'straw that broke the camels back' type scenario. As a result of my deciding on NC I 'lost' both my father and sibling also as they are very entrenched in doing as my mother tells them. I knew this would be a possibility but it still came as a huge shock and blow to me and it is something I struggle with to this day.

DH facilitated our DC's being able to see my mother, which they did for a few years. We explained to our DC's that although I no longer want a relationship with my mother, that as long as she is kind to them that we will (DH will) always do our best to make sure that they have a relationship with their grandparents.

Approximately 18 months ago a serious incident happened when our DC's were in the care of my parents, in which our DC were put in harms way (luckily our DC's were okay). DH spoke to my parents and told them that it never happens again, in any way shape or form when they have the children. However, my mother responded that they would 'stay away' from the DC's (basically throwing her toys out of the pram because they had been called out on their bad behaviour)
This all came on the back of some low level 'unkindness' towards our youngest DC which had meant that I had discussed the possibility of supervising their contact with our DC's. I can't say that I wasn't happy that mother had decided to not see the children again but I had and still have very mixed emotions about it all.

Our DC's have recently started to ask to see my parents again and our eldest gets quite upset about it. When it first happened we told the DC's that we were having a break from arranging for them to see their grandparents. Our DC's took it well especially our youngest as she was beginning to really dislike visiting with them as it seems my mother was starting to treat them like she did me. We never told our DC that my mother had decided not to see them anymore for several reasons, mainly because we did not want to upset them.

It's been 18 months since mother said she would stay way, and stay away she has, which I'm very surprised at as according to her her grandchildren are EVERYTHING to her!

DH & I are both a bit stuck on what to say to our DC's, I'm erring on the side of age appropriate truth but I also don't want to hurt them by telling them that their grandmother (and subsequently their grandfather) want to 'stay away' from seeing them. DH wants to see if it will just blow over, however, its been a few weeks since our DC started asking to see their grandparents again (probably every other week)

I am struggling a lot at the minute due to the abuse I suffered and the resulting mental health problems and I can't see the wood for the trees.

Any advice on what/how to tell our DC's would be greatly appreciated.

OP posts:
FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 16:46

Sorry I forgot to add that DC are 11 and almost 10.

I didn't realise it would be so long Blush

OP posts:
Mabelface · 09/10/2018 16:51

I'd just say that they'd not been very nice to you so you're not going to be seeing them for the foreseeable future.

Starlight345 · 09/10/2018 16:53

At 11 and 10 I think you need to be more honest with them.

My Ds hasn’t seen his dad since he was 3 as he has got older he needs more information.

I would say if they get no information they may think it is their fault.

bastardkitty · 09/10/2018 16:57

I would say that GPs had made a decision not to be in touch and although that must be hurtful for DCs, you and DH are not surprised because they have been very hurtful many times before and is probably for the best. Do your DCs know they were put in danger by GPs?

Bekabeech · 09/10/2018 17:01

At 11 and 10 - I would tell them far more about your parents and how they have treated you.
It does also sound as if they were beginning to treat your DC differently, so you might want to talk to them about family dynamics and being forced into the role of "the golden child" and the "scapegoat", and how it harms both children.
There is a lot you can tell 10 and 11 year olds, and if they ask for more details on something that would not be age appropriate you can say "sorry but we still feel you are too young for all the details".
Do make it clear that none of it is their fault. That they can love or not love their grandparents and thats fine. But at present it is not possible or a good idea for them to see them, and that is a decision you have made as adults.
If they know about why the "situation" made them unsafe you can refer to that.

Joysmum · 09/10/2018 17:14

It took until last year for me to be NC with my mother.

Until then, the bad behaviour was seen as normal for my mother and acceptable by many.

I explained it to my daughter by asking her about strained friendships at school and how this affects others.

She could then relate my feelings that things sometimes are intolerable to some when they are accepted by others as it was something she’d seen happening at school.

She actually called it quits with my mother before I did and she saw it better for what it was.

I tend to find life lessons are better if you can find a way to tap into scenarios and feelings they’ve already experienced, rather than simply an expjaination as to how we are feeling.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 09/10/2018 17:19

Like many adult children of narcissists you have been trained from soon after birth to serve your mother at your overall expense. They did you a lot of emotional harm and you are still living with the effects of such conditioning from her and your enabler dad to this very day.

What was your DH thinking here; did he not realise properly what your mother and father were like?. He is a bloody idiot for facilitating contact with them in the first place but that is a decision he will have to live with. They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and now you have to clear up the mess that he partly made. Presumably he did this out of his own good intentions but if the toxic parent is too toxic/difficult for you to deal with, its the same deal for the children as well. Your parents have not fundamentally altered since childhood and she is still a toxic narcissist with your dad being her willing enabler.

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your children that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your narcissist parent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the children are older and has experienced or witnessed the grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

Young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favour. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mommy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" sez the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Your children do not get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow.

FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 17:21

Thank you everyone for all of your replies.

In reference to my 'relationship' with my parents I decided to tell both the DC's that my mother was unkind to me and doesn't like me very much which is why I decided to be NC with my her, but as long as their grandparents treat them Kindly that is all that matters.

Starlight345 that is a very good point, I absolutely do not want the DC's to thin k it is in anyway their fault.

bastardkitty I really like the way you have worded that, I have suggest ed that to DH and he thinks it a good way to go too.

Yes our DC's knew they were put in danger, unfortunately DC1 forgot to take their phone with them that particular day so couldn't call us. Our DC's and their cousin were inconsolable with fear. DC1 had just before this incident been diagnosed with PTSD and GAD (Under a local children's/teens counselling agency) and this really set DC1 back in terms go how far they had come.

Bekabeech Referring to the unsafe situation is a really good point. It's been 18 months now so hopefully wouldn't upset DC1 too much.

I just hate the thought of hurting or upsetting my DC, it's so hard because I want to protect them from my mothers toxicity.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 09/10/2018 17:27

Keeping them well away from your parents will protect them from your mother's and father's (I mention him as well because women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them) toxic behaviours.

Bekabeech · 09/10/2018 17:32

Refering to the unsafe situation and you protecting them by not allowing them to be cared for by people who will not protect them shouldn't be too triggering. Hopefully.

Sethis · 09/10/2018 17:38

Family are just people. If someone is a positive influence on your or your life, you hang around with them more. If someone is a negative influence on your life, you avoid them and don't talk to them.

Sharing a percentage of DNA doesn't change anything about this rule.

Some people have loving family who support them.

Some people have loving friends who support them.

If you're super lucky, you even get both. But not everyone is lucky like that.

Tell your kids their grandmother was incredibly unkind to you, and hurt you very much. You don't want to see her because of this, any more than they would want to hang out with a bully in their class. You don't want them to see her because you don't want her to bully them, when there are loads of other people you could all meet up with instead - if you have a close friend who they call "Auntie" or "Uncle" despite having no family relation, use that as an example. A good friend of my mothers was always "Auntie Sarah" and she did loads of stuff like letting us sleep over when Mum was working, picking us up from school, etc etc. We would have taken a day of Auntie Sarah over our Grandmother any day of the week, and I imagine your kids would too.

FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 17:39

Joysmum Thank you that is a really good way to explain it to them both.

AttilaTheMeerkat The voice of reason. I think I have been overly passive with regards to DH facilitating contact. neither one of us came at it from the right frame of mind, DH wanted to let the DC's still have a relationship with my parents and as I refused point blank on any contact with my parents I think DH thought he was doing the right thing by our DC's. No malice intended from DH at all.
Unfortunately the years between me deciding on NC have been fraught and I am still somewhat mired in the F.O.G. I have had therapy and things are much calmer without my mother.

Thank you to all of you for taking the time to respond and offer advice, you don't know how much it means to me.

OP posts:
FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 17:41

We are very lucky that DH's parents are absolutely amazing and the DC's see them several times a week. MIL is more like a mum to me than my own mother ever was or could be.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 09/10/2018 17:56

Hi FingerPrintTree

Fortunately you have a nice set of grandparents here so concentrate your efforts further on them. Thought as well that your DH came from a nice and importantly emotionally healthy family himself but you were and are not so lucky here. The experience you wrote of re your children was chilling but not atypical sadly of what narcissists and their enablers can do.

It is not your fault that your parents are like this, you did not make them this way. Have a read too of the Out of the Fog website and Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers websites if you have not already done so.

I hope your DH has learnt from all this, I really do. He was indeed completely misguided to ever facilitate contact with your parents in the first instance and as I wrote earlier the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions. Your children, your most precious resource, must not see your parents again. They will be used and were indeed used by her as a form of narcissistic supply.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 09/10/2018 17:57

You may also want to look at and post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages.

NicoAndTheNiners · 09/10/2018 18:04

You’re not failing your children at all. Quite the opposite, you’re protecting them if she was starting to treat them how she treated you.

I agree that trying to gently explain that she’s not a very nice person.

I’ve been NC with my mother since dd was 11yo, she’s 17yo now. Dd doesn’t miss her, she was old enough to see how nasty she was. And some of that nastiness at the end was very much directed at dd. Told us that dd was mentally ill and should be sectioned. I don’t think I told dd that at the time. But she saw enough of her batshit behaviour to know we were all best off away from her.

AndTheBandPlayedOn · 09/10/2018 18:14

You are worried you are failing your children? Is this guilt then? No, just say no to guilt. That is societal and family brainwashing. It is not applicable in your circumstances. You are well justified in the N.C. and you have nothing to feel guilty about. Your boundaries are a response to her/their behavior.

Age appropriate-and I say it to myself: You don’t have to be around people who are mean to you, and that includes family. (Work place situations present a different set of circumstances so that would be a different conversation.)

Even if your kids don’t understand, you are there to make the executive decisions in their best interests. If the abusive one is too abusive for you, then she is too abusive for your kids.

FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 18:20

You all speak the truth, thank you.

I do feel immense guilt and the most bone chilling fear. fear that I will ultimately lose my DC's, fear that they will see something in me like I do my mother and I will lose them.

I try to do the opposite of everything my mother did while raising my DC and I'm scared that I'm more like her than I realise.

OP posts:
Robin2323 · 09/10/2018 18:59

That's not going to happen!

You are not your mother.

Be mindful

Take advise of people you trust - dh and mill

Maybe get a bit s therapy to help sort out the behaviour you was shown.

The difference between you and your mum is you know the difference between right and wrong - hang on to that.

I think you're great xx

Treacletoots · 09/10/2018 19:42

I could have written your post OP. I won't try and advise as others have done so well above, only to say you are definitely doing the right thing and You owe your toxic narcissistic mother nothing. Keep strong!

yorkshirepud44 · 09/10/2018 19:43

Fingerprint, this resonates with me too. Especially the being like her but not realising thing. Sad

Joysmum · 09/10/2018 19:47

I'm scared that I'm more like her than I realise

And in that one sentence you speak the fears of all of us with NC mothers.

FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 19:53

Thank you for the reassurance everyone, I appreciate it xx

I'm so sad when I hear others are going through similar, there are certainly more of us than we realise. It's so hard.
I remember those first couple of years after going NC I sort of went through a grieving process of sorts, I'm sure we all do in a way. Even now, over 4 years on, I get 'triggered' and it cuts, I struggle to allow myself to 'feel' any of it because I'm scared of having another breakdown and I don't think I could put my family through that again.

I just want to protect my DC's from the pain that is my mother Sad

I'm so glad I posted, I had been thinking of doing so for a while, I feel much better equipped to be more open with my DC's now. I really have found this thread and the support on it invaluable. Thank you all so much.

OP posts:
FingerPrintTree · 09/10/2018 19:56

Joysmum
And in that one sentence you speak the fears of all of us with NC mothers. Sad Sad

That fear is all encompassing at times isn't it.

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